PVP Feedback - Landorus

[Belzebel]

> Sand Force Landorus is banned from Showdown because they do not make complex bans. The exact same thing happened with Speed Boost Blaziken = Even the Blaze version is considered Ubers. (And we can agree that Blaziken is pretty middling without the h.a)

 

 

 

> I'm sorry to say this but this whole sentence feels like "Tyra is good against sun teams which I enjoy playing so it should be banned". Yes, Tyranitar is a strong mon. Yes, it is indeed strong against weather teams, especially Sun. Does it means that you should ban Sand Force Landorus-i because of this ? No.

 

1/ Sand-force Landorus is fairly easy to revenge kill without choice scarf.

 

2/ If it is scarfed, it's locked to ONE move. It means that you can switch-in fairly easily mons like Gliscor, Skarmory, Rotom-Wash etc.

 

3/ Sand Force = +50% damage with Rock / Steel / Ground = the most optimal (and common) set would use 252 atk with Earthquake and Stone Edge / Rock Slide, etc. This is way easier to predict than the Sheer Force Landorus.

 

4/ In top of that, Sand Rush Excadrill (which is fairly better than Lando in sand) is one of the reasons why sand teams are great. Running Lando + Excadrill in the same team is not a good idea (hello Rotom-W)

 

5/ "the king of the weathers" = The best weather in PRO is rain without a doubt. Being a nice counter to other weathers doesn't mean that it is the best weather in the game.

 

5/ What about tyranitar ? It's strong and it can be considered as a good counter against weather teams BUT it has a lot of downs.

A few calcs with the banded set, 252 Speed / Atk :

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 420-496 (123.1 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 300-354 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 348-410 (102 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 364-432 (106.7 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 335-398 (98.2 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 593-702 (173.9 - 205.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 832-988 (243.9 - 289.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 312-368 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 340-400 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 304-358 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 192-228 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 164-194 (48 - 56.8%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-482 (119.6 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 390-460 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

And now let's inspect PRO's usages in April :

 

Gold server :

 

3. Dragonite 8150 24% 51%

4. Rotom-Wash 7716 23% 54%

5. Conkeldurr 7622 22% 50%

9. Weavile 5760 17% 52%

12. Scizor 4336 13% 52%

14. Greninja 3924 11% 47%

15. Gliscor 3895 11% 49%

16. Bisharp 3738 11% 52%

19. Lucario 3374 10% 53%

22. Excadrill 2922 8% 49%

 

Silver server :

 

3. Rotom-Wash 13042 26% 55%

5. Dragonite 12190 24% 52%

8. Conkeldurr 9555 19% 50%

9. Weavile 9203 18% 50%

10. Lucario 7602 15% 50%

13. Scizor 6231 12% 51%

15. Greninja 6116 12% 46%

17. Bisharp 4945 10% 50%

22. Excadrill 4192 8% 54%

 

How strange .. It does have counters ??

Sand is strong yes. It has a LOT of counters tho. And they're not niche at all. (Unless you think the list and the calc i mentioned above are niche in PRO)

 

 

 

This sentence is correct with Sheer Force Landorus. (and this is why it should be banned imo)

This is not right if you're talking about Sand Force+ Ttar.

 

Don't get my answer wrong, this is not an attack. But I had to reply when I saw your message.

You're pretty "influent" in this game, and i'm not sure that non-objective and biased answers like this one would be healthy for the game.

(Because obviously a large percentage of your fan-base will agree with what you say, regardless of the topic)

 

Next time, please think in a different way than "it is good against weathers which i'm used to play so it should be banned" before posting.

 

I did not say that because I like to play Sun. I have experience with weather teams because I play sun. I know how difficult it is to control the weather against sand, regardless if I'm playing Sun or any other weather. The reason why I'm talking about weather teams is because Sand Force actives during sandstorm, which is set by a weather setter: Tyranitar/Hippowdon. They make it easy for Landorus to get momentum, no matter what you play. Sand Force Landorus becomes a Sheer Force Landorus if your opponent team is not even using a weather team, which is even worse. I used weathers as an example because it's the only thing that could possibly take the momentum out of the sandforce Landorus.

[Teddyrose20]

The entire Incarnate Landorus should be banned. Even the Sand Force one. This is how it is in Showdown, and it has a reason.

Sheer Force Landorus will make Sand Teams even stronger than it already is. Tyranitar is already the King of the Weathers, since theres no other Weather Setter that can switch into it. Stone Edge will kill or 2ko Pelippers, Ninetales-Alolan, Ninetales, Torkoal... If it's not a banded Tyranitar, it might not 2ko a Politoed, but... who uses Politoed? So, having Tyranitar with the most advantage of all weathers, it is really hard to dominate another weather to prevent Sand Force Landorus to get momentum in the sand. Almost nothing can switch into a Incarnate Landorus, being it Sheer Force or Sand Force. It It's just too easy to bring momentum to this pokemon. And, the fact it can learn so many coverage moves, it makes it harder to predict. Until you realise the set its running, at least 1 or 2 pokemon already died.

 

Incarnate Landorus should be entirely banned.

Lando-I is entirely banned because Smogon just bans the mon as a whole, that's why even Blaze Blaziken is banned even though it's a lot weaker without H.A.

Lando-I with Sand Force is defiantly nowhere near as big as a problem as Sheer force.

[Darksun20]

Landorus-I with Sheer Force can comfortably check the entire metagame. Landorus-I does not suffer from 4 moveslot syndrome, the set of Earth Power, Focus Blast, Psychic and Hidden Power Ice is perfect coverage and can power through any special wall, and a trolly speed tier. At the time it got banned by Smogon the meta was actually not that different than it is now in PRO PvP. Weather is dominating, Priority spam and Skarm-Bliss cores.

 

That being said, I do not believe we should follow Smogon's lead but instead make our own decisions based on data, meta reports and what not. I actually want Lando with Sand Force around as it's not that big of a threat, it can't punch through it's usual checks such as Skarm, Rotom-Wash and Bliss, the latter for non mixed sets. But here in lies the problem: We'd have to link to the other player to prove it's not sheer force. That's pretty annoying.

 

One last thing...PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IF WE ARE GOING TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY THAN SMOGON DOES THEN BAN LANDO-T, ESPECIALLY FOR THIS META. IT'LL BE SO DUMB. I'm not even joking dude, it'll be worse than Lando-I. The only reason it's not banned today on smogon is because there are more threats to check it with newer gens, in gen 5 and 6 it was really dumb and it eludes me to this day how it managed to dodge a suspect test around that time.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Darksun20

[0danobunaga]

One thing I want to address before going further into this is that, something being able to outspeed and ohko Landorus in a 1v1 environment does not constitute as a counterplay option. Pokemon battles are in 6v6 format for a good reason and without the ability to trap, Lando-i is free to switch out and you won't be able to kill it with weavile/greninja/mamoswine despite what so many on this discussion seem to think. Also, due to the sheer damage output from Lando-i, revenge killers simply cannot switch into him until something gets killed by Lando-i, and pursuit trapping doesn't do all that well since banded weavile pursuit takes 3 hits to KO lando-i anyways--which is far too long to be of relevance when you end up locking yourself into pursuit. A majority of the revenge killers capable of forcing out Landorus-I also lack means to set up or capitalize on that free turn due to having hard checks or limited movepools, which really limits their utility outside of forcing a switch.

that is true

[Lifeguard]

When will it be known if landorus h.a will be banned? Personally I would like it not to be banned, it is a very easy pokemon to counter

[Alfatrion1980s]

I personally also think that landorus sheer force should not be banned just because it's OP on showdown. In pro we got alot of theme team and fast ice Pokemons in meta that can easily counter landorus incarnate. And current meta is somewhat stall heavy so landorus incarnate should be fine on pvp.

[Gleipnirkurea]

I think just ban all legendary pokèmon don't implement megas code every move because it'll just further have complaints like it did in the past when Shane was the developer..

 

I know this comment will get a lot of hate than likes, but thats just how PRO kinda is. :/

[Fearsamuel]

Landorus incarnate has no viable checks that can safely switch in without taking massive amounts of damage. The fact it can sweep half of your team with sheer force + life orb boosted attacks and a high speed tier with no drawbacks is outrageous. The only reason everyone doesnt use landorus incarnate is due to the fact that getting hidden ability and hp ice is close to impossible without high investments in money and luck. Especially in a game with no megas, having landorus incarnate in pvp is completely unhealthy and should be abolished immediately.

Edited June 6, 2020 by FearSamuel

[Idkup]

Landorus incarnate has no viable checks that can safely switch in without taking massive amounts of damage. The fact it can sweep half of your team with sheer force + life orb boosted attacks with a high speed tier outrunning the likes of gengar with no drawbacks is outrageous. The only reason everyone doesnt use landorus incarnate is due to the fact that getting hidden ability and hp ice is close to impossible without high investments in money and luck. Especially in a game with no megas, having landorus incarnate in pvp is completely unhealthy and should be abolished immediately.

 

Landorus is slower than Gengar.

[Lsll]

Landorus incarnate has better overall base stats than nidoking who possess the same ability: Sheer Force. It also has a better typing despite its 4x weakness to ice, which makes it immune to ground type. Nidoking on the other hand is acceptable due to its 85 base speed. Therefore there are plenty of pokemons to use to ultimately kill it. What do we have for landorus incarnate? Mamo? Weavile? Greninja? alakazam Hp ice? Gengar icy wind? Rotom wash scarfed hydro pump? What about defensive checks?

Ferro?

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 148-175 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 218-257 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chansey?

say we are using a mixed set with superpower.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 160-188 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 361-426 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

say they have lucario or bisharp out in the field. You are either forced to sacrifice bisharp or go to chansey and take an earth power. Then landorus will use superpower leaving you with 19% hp, and could kill you with just earth power so its pointless to even switch out. Landorus versatility forces you to either sacrifice a mon in order to force it to switch out. When you finally take out landorus well damn Congrats!! You killed one poke out of 6! Goodluck defeating the rest of the team. How is that healthy to the meta?

 

here's some more calcs :D

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 351-413 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 261-308 (73.1 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 270-318 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 359-426 (100.5 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor: 359-426 (101.9 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 212 HP / 252+ SpD Gliscor: 296-354 (86 - 102.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (careful)

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 260-307 (64.3 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

What can wall it?

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 110-131 (36.3 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (calm)

(Calm Rotom wash is very nice and is viable to use in the meta).

 

other than wash we have:

 

Amoongus

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 146-173 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 101-120 (23.4 - 27.8%) -- 74.3% chance to 4HKO (one of the walls that can live 2 attacks from a mixed landorus incarnate. But will you force people to run AV Amoongus in their team? just to keep landorus incarnate in the meta? You will then be forcing people to run the showdown set:

Stomping tantrum

Energy ball/Giga drain

Sludge bomb/Clear smog

Hp fire

 

Or standard set without Spore!

Edited June 6, 2020 by Styg1aN