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Why the "PvP Council" is a failure and how we can fix it!


teerav
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4 hours ago, Yellovv said:

Making tournament on Showdown is a mistake as Walros already realized that ppl start expecting PRO to become showdown ver 2 and call everything is imbalance and p2w.

Recruiting ppl from that tournament to become pvp council is even a bigger mistake. 

In that case, I would rather let ppl reach high ladder ingame voting than someone who mostly pvp on showdown while only spent like 50 games monthly ingame to reach top 25 then stop and try to pretend they know everything about PRO meta. Every experienced players in this game can climb top 25 with all [heck] pokemon together. it's just the fact that staff never put enough competition in this game for players to force them get higher rank.

If PRO ever remake their whole PvP council and recruiting ppl from top ladder each month I'm willing to take this game competitively rather than a joke at this current stage.

 

No. Since there are only 25 places on ladder, only the ppl with the highest rating can reach ladder. And when you only need 50 games per season, its a proof for themselfes. Its harder to reach top 25 with a 80% winrate and 50 games than spam games and reach it with a 65% winrate. When you have such a winrate, over and over, you have knowledge. I also have no idea how you come to the idea that those are "showdown players" when its a tournament hold on showdown with PRO rules?! They are PRO player, not showdown player. The only difference for showdown are the IVs on the Pokemon and the platform itself.
Mistake, yes. But your reasoning is far behinde any sense.


Like wtf, nothing in your post makes sense. Read it again and think what you are writing. Such a bs in so many ways. No offense.

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Of course I'm talking to myself, sometimes I have to talk with an intelligent person.

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1 hour ago, Bash said:

 

No. Since there are only 25 places on ladder, only the ppl with the highest rating can reach ladder. And when you only need 50 games per season, its a proof for themselfes. Its harder to reach top 25 with a 80% winrate and 50 games than spam games and reach it with a 65% winrate. When you have such a winrate, over and over, you have knowledge. I also have no idea how you come to the idea that those are "showdown players" when its a tournament hold on showdown with PRO rules?! They are PRO player, not showdown player. The only difference for showdown are the IVs on the Pokemon and the platform itself.
Mistake, yes. But your reasoning is far behinde any sense.


Like wtf, nothing in your post makes sense. Read it again and think what you are writing. Such a bs in so many ways. No offense.

I didn't say reaching top 25 with high winrate is a bad sign. What I mean obviously that there are many more ppl can do the same and it doesn't prove that they have enough knowledge about PRO meta to become PvP council. Like how many of those PvP council actually peaked rank 1 at the end of season to provide more reliable about their voting? And if you really think PRO tournament on showdown share the same meta as PRO ladder ingame, you are super wrong. The reason I call them "showdown players" is because they playing the game on PRO showdown meta and voting base on smogon experience rather than ingame experience where those votes affect the most. And after all, if council want ppl to believe at what they said then why not spend their time on ingame ladder rather than bullshiting about what they thought and thinking that they are right. One of those council even said that PRO PvP statistics isn't reliable. that's right, his smogon's experience is even more accurate than PRO statistics 🙂  Let's me ask you 1 simple question, if a pokemon you think are super ultra broken, but everyone ingame playing it so badly, make it's have like 40% winrate. But base on everything you calculated, that pokemon should be banned, Will you vote to ban that poke? yes or no? ppl voting Yes only care about what their thought because if that poke really broken why not wait until everyone else reach your level.

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2 hours ago, Yellovv said:

.

the bans weren't voted by the council, stop putting the blame on them when it clearly wasn't any of their doing

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Tempered by violent rays ~

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2 hours ago, Yellovv said:

I didn't say reaching top 25 with high winrate is a bad sign. What I mean obviously that there are many more ppl can do the same and it doesn't prove that they have enough knowledge about PRO meta to become PvP council. Like how many of those PvP council actually peaked rank 1 at the end of season to provide more reliable about their voting? And if you really think PRO tournament on showdown share the same meta as PRO ladder ingame, you are super wrong. The reason I call them "showdown players" is because they playing the game on PRO showdown meta and voting base on smogon experience rather than ingame experience where those votes affect the most. And after all, if council want ppl to believe at what they said then why not spend their time on ingame ladder rather than bullshiting about what they thought and thinking that they are right. One of those council even said that PRO PvP statistics isn't reliable. that's right, his smogon's experience is even more accurate than PRO statistics 🙂  Let's me ask you 1 simple question, if a pokemon you think are super ultra broken, but everyone ingame playing it so badly, make it's have like 40% winrate. But base on everything you calculated, that pokemon should be banned, Will you vote to ban that poke? yes or no? ppl voting Yes only care about what their thought because if that poke really broken why not wait until everyone else reach your level.

 

" Like how many of those PvP council actually peaked rank 1 at the end of season"
Many actually. Maybe even all? Im not sure.

 

"And if you really think PRO tournament on showdown share the same meta as PRO ladder ingame, you are super wrong"
I dont say that, the reason for that is that it is a tournament. You teambuild much different in a tourney than for ladder. Also for the summer tourneys its always the case.

 

"And after all, if council want ppl to believe at what they said then why not spend their time on ingame ladder rather than bullshiting about what they thought and thinking that they are right"
Many of them do, dont they? Other than that most of them proved often enough that they are capable of laddering. 

 

"One of those council even said that PRO PvP statistics isn't reliable. "

No, I think you missudnerstand. Thing is: No matter how broken a Pokemon is, if everyone plays it, it will still have a 50% winrate. Thats why the statistics dont have a big saying. It is smarter to plot the winrate of a Pokemon to the rating of the users, so you have a idea how good Pokemon are in good players hands. I think thats what the guy meant.

 

"if a pokemon you think are super ultra broken, but everyone ingame playing it so badly, make it's have like 40% winrate. "

Check above + idk if you play league of legends for example. But there are often champions that are broken, but have a super bad winrate in the game. You actually need some skill to abuse their power. *even tho for Gren the skill needed might not be that high*

 

"Yes only care about what their thought because if that poke really broken why not wait until everyone else reach your level."

Because not everyone can have a 80% winrate.

 

Enough from me.

Edited by Bash
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Of course I'm talking to myself, sometimes I have to talk with an intelligent person.

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1 hour ago, Bash said:

" Like how many of those PvP council actually peaked rank 1 at the end of season"
Many actually. Maybe even all? Im not sure.

 

you seem not clearly understand what i'm trying to say. tell me how many of them appeared in top 3 ladder since first wave of mega release. And how many of them played enough games to fully aware about current PRO meta stage. even they got top 20 with 100% winrate doesnt prove that they know what happening within the meta, which make me think top 1,2,3 should be players played enough games and also good at PvP. 

 

1 hour ago, Bash said:

No, I think you missudnerstand. Thing is: No matter how broken a Pokemon is, if everyone plays it, it will still have a 50% winrate. Thats why the statistics dont have a big saying. It is smarter to plot the winrate of a Pokemon to the rating of the users, so you have a idea how good Pokemon are in good players hands. I think thats what the guy meant.

it's because none of the council even try to asking walros for better statistics and they don't give a sht about it. So, due to the huge skill gap between top players and random one, normally you can always maintain at much higher wr than 50%. which mean, if you pull out stats about greninja from only decent players, the wr always high no matter which poke they were playing. So the better way is to compare greninja winrate with others pokemon from those decent players. So if they ever asking walros to pull out statistic of all 400+ rating battle ( ofc only take stats of that 400+ rating team and not their OP) then I guess it would be close enough for you to tell gren is broken or not. Or it can be statistics from any definition of "good players" you want. when you say statistics dont have a big saying, it's just you never try to make it works. Also, it's true that if everyone using gren, it will have 50% rn no matter what. but here is 2 ways to do that, 1 remove all stats from mirror poke, 2 compare it to similar usage pokemon.

1 hour ago, Bash said:

"if a pokemon you think are super ultra broken, but everyone ingame playing it so badly, make it's have like 40% winrate. "

Check above + idk if you play league of legends for example. But there are often champions that are broken, but have a super bad winrate in the game. You actually need some skill to abuse their power. *even tho for Gren the skill needed might not be that high*

yes, I found this kind a topic a long time ago, let's me give you better example. If damwon gaming, the best league team can play renekton with 100% wr and won world but the other team never have any success playing this champ, then renek is broken or not? so your example only correct when you assume everyone playing with different level and my example is right if we put it in highest competitive level. Which mean, if we have more insightful stats from top players like I mentioned above then isn't it better to wait for everyone to learn the pokemon.

 

it's also enough from me, I wont say anything about this anymore.

 

2 hours ago, Comrader said:

the bans weren't voted by the council, stop putting the blame on them when it clearly wasn't any of their doing

 

the result isn't as expected from the council but the cause of walros decision actually from PvP council. everyone know since the aegi ban, council  put incredible pressure on him. In fact, i'm quite happy with his final decision or at least he know how to deal with this toxic community. But after all, everything I wrote is not about blaming council, I just want better members who are fully aware about this game, not showdown.

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4 hours ago, Yellovv said:

you seem not clearly understand what i'm trying to say. tell me how many of them appeared in top 3 ladder since first wave of mega release. And how many of them played enough games to fully aware about current PRO meta stage. even they got top 20 with 100% winrate doesnt prove that they know what happening within the meta, which make me think top 1,2,3 should be players played enough games and also good at PvP. 

 

This is a valid critique. Council members must be respected by the community in order for it to work. Smogon does this as well. Council member's descriptions should also include links to their accomplishments, otherwise their descriptions are simply "trust me, these guys good haha!" And @Bashis correct about current council members accomplishments. It is easy for him and me to respect them because we have been around long enough to know who they are and their accomplishments. Which is why we need an official post to help people like you know them better.

 

Quote

Another thing i'm wondering; is it just me or does somebody else recognize stuff is being added to the game so people spend a shitload of hours into hunting those pokes. They spent all these hours into getting a pvpable pokemon because it's nice or overpowered and it will just get banned from pvp. I doubt it's because there is no research but the intention to waste peoples time on this game.

Quote by @Squad above. (Sorry, Im too boomer to get this crap to work properly.)
This is another huge reason why we need a transparent and open council. It is not healthy for PRO's economy to have such dramatic shifts determined by single announcements. Its a difficult balance that I dont think is possible to please everyone. If the council ever gains true traction, any discussion of "suspect testing" etc. of pokemon etc. will impact PRO's economy. However, at least it will be traceable and some sense of predictability. But again, this topic is very complex and difficult to balance. Players who follow the council can will be able to make better economic decisions. Or decisions in what to hunt. And those who do not follow the council or announcements will be "blindsided" by definitive changes.

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I'm a little worried.


The Council's Discord is quiet, without any discussion.
Is there something going on behind the scenes?

 

This topic is full of very productive opinions, it would be very sad that all this was disregarded.

= /

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I personally find the greninja ban whatever, not really needed. And i feel bad for everyone spending tons of hours getting a decent one with bms on. Ye i know gren brings a lot to the table but that's what makes it fun. You don't know if its a mixed or special only or att only so there is a lot of mindgames bound to it. You gotta scout it. Also his winrate here in PRO is totally fine (sitting constantly under 50% while there are pokemon that have consistently over 55% winrate and not even at a low playrate). The argument "in the right hands he is broken" is kinda whatever to me, like you don't need such a big brain to click for example spikes on a electric pokemon. To me it's just mindgames which makes a battle more interesting.

 

Let's get to what i actually wanna get out of me. I surely am not against regular staff pokemon just to make it clear but i find it pretty unfair that someone is allowed to use a legendary staff pokemon on pvp. This is just overkill to me. Having a legendary pokemon with all perfect IVs and the right hidden power is simply too much. A normal player would need insane amount of luck on the rerolls to get almost perfect ivs with hp.

 

 

Great Thread by teerav. +1

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Posted (edited)
On 4/28/2021 at 9:23 AM, albagran said:

Let's get to what i actually wanna get out of me. I surely am not against regular staff pokemon just to make it clear but i find it pretty unfair that someone is allowed to use a legendary staff pokemon on pvp. This is just overkill to me. Having a legendary pokemon with all perfect IVs and the right hidden power is simply too much. A normal player would need insane amount of luck on the rerolls to get almost perfect ivs with hp.

 

Before you read my response, I must disclose that I do have a staff reward pokemon.

 

Staff are volunteers, therefore they are helping PRO during their own time. Much of this time would have been spent playing PRO regardless. During my time as staff, requirements to earn a custom pokemon was varied. In most cases, it took six months to earn a custom staff pokemon. Consider a staff member spent 1 hour a day volunteering, after six months that is 180 hours of doing staff duties. 180 hours spent in PRO could easily obtain a near-perfect pokemon of similar PvP value. If not by farming, then by gather pokedollars through another means. And sure, most staff make their custom pokemon shiny adding value to it. However, custom staff pokemon cannot be traded, therefore it holds no value outside of PvP.

 

That said, strong pokemon will always give an advantage in PvP and near-perfect custom staff pokemon is truly the ultimate representation of that. Currently, one is only allowed to use up to two custom staff pokemon in Ranked PvP. I think there is an argument to reduce that rule down to only one pokemon, but I do not feel strongly about it to lead that discussion.

Edited by teerav
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Like i said i am totally not against regular staff pokemon the likes of Volcarona, Venusaur, Charizard etc. Staff deserves them for their effort and should be free to use on pvp. Anyone can farm a pretty good one aswell if they invest time.

 

I am aiming more towards legendary pokemon like Tornadus, Landorus, Zapdos. The effort and RNG to get a close to perfect one there is just on another level and to top that aswell for it to have the right hidden power on top of it. Furthermore, unlike the regular pokemon the legendary pokemon can be nature swapped and those perfect IVs can be utilized even further. To me personally this is unbalanced.

 

greeting

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