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June 2021 - Spawn Rarity Update & Reborn Bot Update


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Hey there, lets talk about the most recent spawn changes. You can leave feedback down below, toxic comments will be deleted and sanctioned. If you wanna be disrespectful then your opinion is not worth reading. 
 


1. Spawn Update
First of all, I (The Spawn Editor) changed these things: https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/175065-spawn-changelog-2021/?tab=comments#comment-997258
 

This was done in order to get rid of discrepancies with spawns. This was to make the game more even and fair. 
I take the Heracross spawn as an example: 

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All spawns were Tier 8 but the Hoenn Safari ones (the ones where you have to pay to get in). Heracross however had a Tier 6 spawn in Pattern Push WITH a Repel Trick as well. This instantly meant 9 out of the 10 spawns were considered bad, trash, worthless to hunt on. Heracross was devalued because its arguably lower tier than all the other spawns. My spawn update targeted this and only this. 

This meant a lot of Pokemon got their "out of place" spawn removed, like Nosepass had average Tier 8 spawns but for some reason had a Tier 3 spawn as well. The update focused on evening out tiers, so if a Pokémon had 5x Tier 2 and 5x Tier 4 spawn then it will now have 10x Tier 3 spawns. I averaged out tiers for a lot of these Pokémon, rounding up at .5 and rounding down at .49.

This to the contrary of what people are saying did make the game harder on some areas but also easier on others. For example, some areas where Seaking was Tier 3 and some other areas it was Tier 5. The area where it was Tier 3 is obviously now easier since its now at Tier 4, while the Tier 5 spawn was lowered to Tier 4 making it a bit "harder". 

This update focused on removing the outliers mainly and only even out the tiers of a lot of these Pokémon. Arguably this is for the best and the better of the game. 

The tier system still exists (Tier 1 through Tier 9), even if you can't tell them anymore in the Reborn Bot. There will be spawns that are "Tier 9" and there will be spawns that will be "Tier 8" for the same Pokémon however their "true" tiers will be different, see more down below. This update didn't make all rare spawns have the same rarity. 

The last "big" rarity update the game received in 2019, this was mostly unnoticed however I did indeed change the rarities quite a lot back then. It is still not hugely known that water spawns starting at Tier 5 have better odds than their land counterparts. 

Getting told I "ruined" the game or "I hate the community" or people using the argument of me not playing anymore. I laugh about this. I have been making spawns "secretly" since summer 2017 with Nikola (I already barely played there & still had my 4k hours), the only reason why Repeltricks are officially a thing is because of me. Nikola created the Spawn Editor role for me in 2018. The mere suggestion that I would want to hurt the game or make it worse are just not true. Spawns are and were always my baby & I won't accept anyone stating the opposite. I am very open for change and for suggestions, I proved that countless times when it came down to spawns. 
 


2. Reborn Bot update
The removal of "tiers" from the Reborn bot as of 16. June 2021. 
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Quote from Walrosskastanie: 
 

Quote

The tiers were wrong and misleading in many cases. It ignored the spawn chances of the Pokémon around it. A T8 with two T1 spawns might be harder than a T9 with a T3 spawn. Players saw a high tier and instinctively trashed the spawn.


Why was this necessary?
Some updates are simply necessary for the better of the game, players might not see it that way however this is for the better. 
Spawn Editors are restricted by patterns we can use, irrelevant values that have no actual meaning towards the outcome of the spawns rarity. Tiers were a mere construct by Nikola to make it somehow explainable to players as the "true" values Spawn Editors use have no correlation or any type of sense for the final product. 

It was very restrictive for Spawn Editors to make attractive spawns, you could see by simply looking at a spawn if it was "good" or "bad" however this wasn't even the actual true meaning behind it. Only way to test if a spawn is better than the other is by playing on it and hunting on it. As the "true" tiers per Pokémon are based on the area they are in, the Pokémon and their tiers around them. The tiers given in the Reborn bot were sometimes 2-3 tiers "off" what their "true" tiers are. This however isn't new information, this was always known. I did say this a few years ago already. 
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All this update does is make it easier for Spawn Editors to make appealing spawns without having to waste my time for spawns that are instantly dumped because they don't look "as good" on paper. 
 


3. The future
We will continue to explore new ways and options to make the game better, spawns are one of the biggest parts in the game. They control the economy more than anything else. An easier spawn can plummet the value of Pokémon in a heartbeat. 

Form chances for example are a subject we are willing to look at however we won't give out the odds anymore, it is for the same reason we don't give out the odds for spawns. Small numbers look discouraging for the individual however applied to the mass they are a perfect fit. The game is considered a MMO after all & not everything should be handed out for free. Some things are just meant for the lucky ones or for the people that put in the time. 

Every spawn change that was done by me was always noted in a Spawn changelog, I am absolutely against hiding changes. Its not even known within staffs besides for Spawn Editors and Admins what will be changed, sometimes only me knows what exactly was changed as I like to keep things open till the very end. 

All I ask for is to give things some time and trust in me, I think I proved dozens of times that I know what I am doing with spawns more than anyone else in this game. I value in almost everything and don't focus solely on one subject. Focusing on one subject like balancing around PvP will make this game becomes something that I would never want for it. 

Closing, be chill, trust me when I say that I have only good intentions for spawns. Peace ~

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I'd wish that you'd make it possible for everyone to hunt all sorts of Pokemons without any special requirement(s).

For example, you can only hunt a Pancham if you have finished the Pinkan Island quest (which requires 250+ hours as the first requirement) 

There are several other examples. 

I don't mean to say make it easily catchable, but at least accessible for everyone.

You people are doing a wonderful job otherwise, love this game thoroughly! ❤️

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Just now, Revelc said:

I'd wish that you'd make it possible for everyone to hunt all sorts of Pokemons without any special requirement(s).

For example, you can only hunt a Pancham if you have finished the Pinkan Island quest (which requires 250+ hours as the first requirement) 

There are several other examples. 

I don't mean to say make it easily catchable, but at least accessible for everyone.

You people are doing a wonderful job otherwise, love this game thoroughly! ❤️

Some things are meant to be behind locked areas or quests, that's a normal thing for MMOs. However we are slowly moving away from hours as requirement, probably something that is worth for scripters to think about. Not my area at all. 

  • Your appeal will be replied to as soon as the case handling staff member is available. We are all just volunteers with real life responsibilities, other interests and limited free time. Spamming your appeal will not yield a faster reply
     

     

  • Do not contact staff members for private support. Share your question on the forum due to it being of use for others. Please use the proper forum as well. Unsolicited messages will be deleted. Thanks.
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Thank you Felix, now I start to understand the Heracross change more. 🙂

 

However, could we get 1 lower tier spawns in MS only areas? I feel like with the pattern brush thing gone, sevii islands is completely dead now (besides the larvitar repel if it still exists idk). I feel like Hera could be T8 there since its tied to MS with a long annoying quest. Same for zones like Safari Exclusive and Pokemon Tower Basement.

 

Cheers

Become Defiant, Stay Defiant.

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Thanks a lot for the explanation. However, i do have one suggestion: Many people complain, that certain pokemon are now much harder to hunt. I would suggest considering not only all the other spawns a pokemon has but also the optimal rarity tier the pokemon could be hunted for before you changed the spawns. Or at least correcting the outliners not to the average of all other spawns, but to the minimum among them.

Heracross is a good example. Previously it was catchable at tier 6, now its tier 8 at best. While i do understand, that these tiers are not as meaningful as many players believe, you will for sure agree that it is harder to hunt Heracross after this update. I do understand that you want to eliminate complete outliners, but the fact that it was previously huntable at tier 6 while its now only huntable at tier 8 (and this not even at every time of the day) makes heracross much harder to get. Changing the spawn from 6 to 9 is a bit much in my opinion. If you would change it from 6 to 8, it wouldnt be an outliner anymore while maintaining a better spot than some others as you can hunt heracross at tier 8 all day long.

And with an average of 8.5, going to 8 or to 9 was really a close decision in this case.

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I have a question regarding the Solaceon daily quest, i think it's directly connected to the spawn and rarity changes.
As u may know, solaceon was recetly reworked, tier 5-6 (day 1-5) tier 8-9 (day 6-7). Now with this spawn update how will it work? Since it just got a previously tier 6 pokémon (now uncommon/rare - carvanha) both in day 1 and in day 7. In this case it was in my advantage, cuz i could repel an uncommon carvanha for a day 7 reward in 2 minutes, but it can work inversely proportional next time.

 

With my best regards,

LemoneShark

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We've debated a lot already, but I'll still post my opinion regarding the changes, especially since they're opinions mostly as a player, and thus that I expect many players to share as well.

 


First of all, I personally don't have any issues regarding the tier changes. Sure, it effectively makes many Pokemons harder to hunt since they no longer have an exceptionally good single hunting spot, but times change and there's definitely certain Pokemons that need a change in rarity due to their changes in usefulness. In the end, one of the main reasons that kept me playing PRO is that every single Pokemon are realistic to obtain, you are never expected to waste days without even seeing the Pokemon once, and the dream of capturing every Pokemon is actually feasible. As long as this does not change, I will never mind the changes.


What I personally don't like is the loss of information on the Reborn bot. I understand this change makes your job easier as it comes with more freedom to adjust the spawn odds without having to suffer the public opinion on every single change, but from the viewpoint of players, this is a strongly negative change that comes with no obvious positive point. I'll try to organize all the possible arguments I can find, both for and against the change.

 


Overreliance on Reborn Data

 

I'll put this in front since it will also get touched in other categories. One of the arguments that could be made for the change is that we've grown overreliant on this information being provided by Reborn. This is a similar argument to Staff View: Players were not meant to have this feature, but was still made available to use. While it was very useful, it did negatively impact the game to some point, as exploring was no longer exciting when you could see so far away.

 

In the same line of thought, we do rely heavily on the data provided by Reborn when deciding where to go hunting, and have grown used to it. So there's actually two different player views that is born from this change: The view from a player who have been relying on Reborn, and the view from a newer player who never got to experience having that much accurate data.

 

... Unfortunately, the result is not going to be quite exactly the same as the Staff View removal. This is because Staff View did not provide new information, it just made it easier to play. For Reborn, we are losing information, but the old information remains available. New players will still get affected by the removal as old information will still continue to get exchanged.

 

 

Knowing the odds

 

Hunting for Pokemon is already a very heavily RNG activity, and we like to at least be able to estimate the odds. To me, this has always been extremely important whenever confrontated to a low-odd RNG mechanic. Poker? I always estimate the odds of landing on a specific hand before choosing which cards to discard. Drop rates? I always investigate to see how many attempts I need to drop it. If I can't tell, I might actually grow irritated because I'm not dropping the item, when in fact I might still not have made enough attempts to even reach the expected amount of tries before dropping. Being unable to drop an item, either because the odds are way too low or because I grew irritated from an assumed bad luck, has been the reason why I've quit the majority of MMORPGs.

 

This is why I loved being able to see tiers in PRO. For any Pokemon I want to hunt, I could always estimate the average time required to hunt before I can encounter the Pokemon. Even for a beginner who don't know how spawn rates work, this is still a good information to be able to tell approximately how good a spawn is.

To put it into examples, I can easily approximate Pokemons of a same tier to require approximately the same time to spawn. Tier 1 litterally shows up every other spawn, but Tier 3 shows up around every 10 spawns. Tier 7 requires approximately 20 minutes to spawn, but Tier 9 can take around an hour. This estimated time per spawn changes according to what's more common, but still remains accurate to a certain point: Tier 9 actually vary between 40 minutes and 80 minutes. That's good enough estimation for a beginner who just looks at the tier and not what's around.

 

But what about now? We get only 3 visible tiers, where Common = instant - 5 minutes, Uncommon = 3-25 minutes, Rare = 15-80 minutes. This is extremely vague, and players might get confused why a Rare Pokemon isn't spawning even after 80 minutes.

 

Another example. We have Vermilion's Surf, particularly during the Day, where Squirtle is tier 8, but there's only Tentacool and Tentacruel at Tier 2 and 3. This is great information, it means that Squirtle's spawn rate would actually feel tier 7! But now, you see two Common spawns in front, and you assume it's not too different from the other areas. This, in particular, is an enormous loss of information!

 

 

Information discovery

 

One of the "positive" points we could potentially see about the change is that this favorizes players exchanging information between each other. Instead of just asking Reborn, they would instead ask the information to other players, increasing exchanges between the community... But unfortunately, it's not that simple. There's four major problems to this. 

 

The first problem is that the community is not large enough, compared to how much information there is to gather. There's hundreds of Pokemons to hunt, but there's not enough players that spend enough time hunting to accurately get an idea about spawns. At best, they'll figure out spawn rates about the popular PvP Pokemons like Ferrothorn, but far too many Pokemon will remain without any information to be shared. Our playerbase is simply not large enough compared to how much data there is to gather.

 

The second problem is that the RNG is far too unreliable to be able to make a good comparison between different areas. A player could ask where's the best place to hunt Larvitar, someone could suggest a place where 3 spawned super quickly... When in fact, he might actually have been at the worst possible place yet have gotten very lucky. None of the information obtained without hunting there for weeks is reliable enough.

 

The third problem is that all spawn rates are subject to change at any time. People are much more likely to want to write information on a website knowing that this information is going to be accurate for a long time. When I wrote for the wiki, I wrote information on every single area in the game... Except Sevii Island, because it was announced that it would get reworked (it never did in the end). When a battle rework was announced, I lost all interest in continueing to work on the Move pages. So when you know that the odds in a single spawn area could entirely change due to a single modification, it really does not motivate players to spend so much time to figure out the spawn odds in an area.

 

The final problem is specifically the existence of old information. Before this update, we knew the exact tier of every Pokemon on every area of the game. Unfortunately, this will remain the most "reliable" information for a looooong time, even though it might get outdated due to future spawn odd changes.


So unfortunately, if the change remains as if, I doubt we will ever be able to figure out information more reliable than the pre-change information, for the majority of the Pokemons.

 

 

Misleading

 

One of the reasons you mentionned is that the old tier system is misleading. A common example would be certain sea routes where there's no Tier 1 and 2, so that wild encounters are not as frequent and annoying while traversing the route. This makes the Pokemons in that route actually feel one or two tiers more common, hence why it's misleading.

 

Unfortunately, since this change is still based on the original tier system, it doesn't really fix the problem that it's misleading. A route with a Tier 3 Pokemon, tier 4 Pokemon and tier 7 Pokemon? You'll see one Common, one Uncommon and one Rare... But in reality, it would rather feel like two Common and one Uncommon. In fact, it might be even more misleading since a route with a lot of tier 3 Pokemons would appear to have a lot more annoying spawns than it really has!

 

 

Exploration

 

The probably most positive point that, I believe, is the main goal of this change, is that players would be more likely to try out new hunting grounds, rather than just look at the spawn and go directly at whichever hunting spot seems the best. We might indeed see players being spread around more hunting spots. Knowing that tiers for each Pokemon have been made constant, we might also be seeing hunters that aim for grounds specifically because multiple rare Pokemons spawn there, rather than just because their main target has the highest spawn rate in this area.

 

However, many players are lazy. Without the ability to estimate how good each area is, players might just look up the spawn locations and go to the nearest spawn area, which could also potentially be the worst one due to a high density of tier 1 spawns. I don't think many players are ready to actually try out multiple areas, especially given how unreliable RNG is.

 

 

Term Discrepancy

 

Right now, "rarity tiers" is a word in the vocabulary of PRO. When a player joins and asks how rare, say, Charmander is, many people will reply Tier 8. After the change, some people will say Rare, while others will continue saying Tier 8, because that's really the more accurate and representative information. This could lead to confusion for new players who might not understand what's this about tiers when nothing gives that information anymore.

 

If they search online, they'll also see that the most "recent" information (Reborn) gives a vague term in "Rare", but also see the Wiki or other guides say "Tier 8". They might conclude that the spawn system have been completely overhauled at some point, when in fact, all that happened is information being made more vague.

 

 

Transparency

 

This is very important for many people. Right now, spawns work with tiers, and the exact odds change according to what's around. For a player, this means that as long as no number changes, nothing changed. But that won't be the case anymore.

 

I don't know how you plan to deal with this, but say, starters pass from tier 8 to 9 at some point. That means passing from "Rare" to "Rare", AKA no visible change. Would you announce that they've been made more rare, or leave it unannounced? Players might fear the latter, and they might grow paranoiac that a Pokemon has secretly been made more rare because they're on an unlucky hunt.

 

 

 

In summary, this is the arguments in favor and against the change that I've aknowledged, from a player experience point of view:

 

In favor:
- Better spawn balance due to more freedom.
- Players are over-relying on Reborn data.
- Players will try new hunting spots.

Against:
- Not being able to estimate the spawn rate can lead to a more negative experience.
- Information on player experience is too unreliable.
- Older data will remain the most reliable information for a long time.
- Clash of "old" and "new" vocabulary for tiers.
- The data still remains misleading, if not even more.
- Transparency problems may happen.


Of course, I may have missed other arguments... But from what I can think of, the arguments against the change heavily outweight those for the change... And a good part of it is due to the fact that this older information will continue to exist and remain the more reliable information for many years to come, even if it's now off by a tier. A lot of the negative points wouldn't have meant anything if the tiers were hidden from the beginning.

 


Although I would definitely prefer to have the change undone, if we were to keep it, this is what I would change:

- Rarities should take into consideration what is in the same area, rather than the original tier. In other words, even if a Pokemon is the same tier everywhere, it could still appear one rarity higher on a route filled with Tier 1 Pokemons, or one rarity lower when on a route with no tier 1 Pokemon.
- Given that this can change with the time of the day, the rarity could be calculated for each time of the day (A Pokemon could be Rare/Very Rare/Unavailable for Morning/Day/Night)
- There should be 5 different rarities, so that the range of our estimation isn't that large.

Edited by Haneroze
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