Jump to content

June 2021 - Spawn Rarity Update & Reborn Bot Update


Recommended Posts

Sorry but you dont give any real explanations on the reason why we are not anymore aware of tiers, so its just because tiers on bot arent really accurate, or you dont want to make economy instable, it never was stable and never will as long as we dont have an auciton house, then take your time and fix when you can, instead of giving up like this and find a way to get rid of players demands, i feel like spawns changes are mostly a good thing, its totally the opposite for the new bot system and if you cant realize its just a bad thing for us players, despite the fact you can do good things as spawn editor, we will definitely not put our trust in you.

 

If some players are harrassing you for making froakie easier to farm, etc, lot are just beginners, you guys shouldnt even took those demand serious, you really have to see which players want to see the game thrive, and those who just care about them, you do most of the time good improvments for the game, why turning back down with this stupid idea, if you want to trust something, i feel like transparency is VERY important for most players, we only can feel kinda betrayed when you guys remove us a system on we relied during a lot, and around me yesterday i only heard about disapointment and others who just dont care, you guys took this decision stupidly without listening anyone opinion thats the most sad into this, keep it this way wally, felix, or whoever decided this, and u'll see more players gone for good

Edited by smokincatcher
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  

23 hours ago, CapriFame said:

However, could we get 1 lower tier spawns in MS only areas? I feel like with the pattern brush thing gone, sevii islands is completely dead now (besides the larvitar repel if it still exists idk). I feel like Hera could be T8 there since its tied to MS with a long annoying quest. Same for zones like Safari Exclusive and Pokemon Tower Basement.

If you reasoning is sound and makes sense then feel free to post it in the normal feedback thread. I go through that once in a while and apply majority of the suggested changes if they make sense. Yours does. 
 

21 hours ago, LemoneShark said:

I have a question regarding the Solaceon daily quest, i think it's directly connected to the spawn and rarity changes.
As u may know, solaceon was recetly reworked, tier 5-6 (day 1-5) tier 8-9 (day 6-7). Now with this spawn update how will it work? Since it just got a previously tier 6 pokémon (now uncommon/rare - carvanha) both in day 1 and in day 7. In this case it was in my advantage, cuz i could repel an uncommon carvanha for a day 7 reward in 2 minutes, but it can work inversely proportional next time.

It will be updated.
 

 

20 hours ago, Haneroze said:

.

Let's just get into your TL:DR
 

 

20 hours ago, Haneroze said:

- Better spawn balance due to more freedom.

More freedom for me without having to waste time making spawns that are instantly deemed "worthless" because some artificial things that aren't accurate portray them as such

The tier system is something Nikola thought of to explain rarity to players because the numbers & the math are only known to Devs. 
 

 

20 hours ago, Haneroze said:

- Players are over-relying on Reborn data.

Yes and this ties in with the things I said above. 
 

 

20 hours ago, Haneroze said:

- Players will try new hunting spots.

Yes, they will / have to. Older spawns might not be "the best anymore".

 

 

20 hours ago, Haneroze said:

- Not being able to estimate the spawn rate can lead to a more negative experience.

Disagree, RNG is a factor for everything. Hunting on "perceived" best spots while in fact they aren't plus the RNG factor play a role in with a negative experience.
 

 

20 hours ago, Haneroze said:

Information on player experience is too unreliable.

Common, Uncommon and Rare is not "unreliable". Its way more accurate than some random tiers.
 

 

20 hours ago, Haneroze said:

- Older data will remain the most reliable information for a long time.

Might be the case.
 

 

20 hours ago, Haneroze said:

- Clash of "old" and "new" vocabulary for tiers.

Last thing I will ever think of what people say, if they start using "common, uncommon, rare" that would be for the better. 
 

 

20 hours ago, Haneroze said:

- The data still remains misleading, if not even more.

Not misleading. 
 

 

20 hours ago, Haneroze said:

- Transparency problems may happen.

They won't and never have for any of my changes. 

 

 

9 hours ago, smokincatcher said:

Sorry but you dont give any real explanations on the reason why we are not anymore aware of tiers, so its just because tiers on bot arent really accurate, or you dont want to make economy instable, it never was stable and never will as long as we dont have an auciton house, then take your time and fix when you can, instead of giving up like this and find a way to get rid of players demands, i feel like spawns changes are mostly a good thing, its totally the opposite for the new bot system and if you cant realize its just a bad thing for us players, despite the fact you can do good things as spawn editor, we will definitely not put our trust in you.

Apples and oranges. I did give an explanation about the Reborn Bot changes:
 

  

On 6/17/2021 at 7:49 PM, Qeight said:

2. Reborn Bot update
The removal of "tiers" from the Reborn bot as of 16. June 2021. 
A4PPGBM.png.7135ed91c79655a1bad98bfdd8f28d56.png

Quote from Walrosskastanie: 
 

Quote

The tiers were wrong and misleading in many cases. It ignored the spawn chances of the Pokémon around it. A T8 with two T1 spawns might be harder than a T9 with a T3 spawn. Players saw a high tier and instinctively trashed the spawn.


Why was this necessary?
Some updates are simply necessary for the better of the game, players might not see it that way however this is for the better. 
Spawn Editors are restricted by patterns we can use, irrelevant values that have no actual meaning towards the outcome of the spawns rarity. Tiers were a mere construct by Nikola to make it somehow explainable to players as the "true" values Spawn Editors use have no correlation or any type of sense for the final product. 

It was very restrictive for Spawn Editors to make attractive spawns, you could see by simply looking at a spawn if it was "good" or "bad" however this wasn't even the actual true meaning behind it. Only way to test if a spawn is better than the other is by playing on it and hunting on it. As the "true" tiers per Pokémon are based on the area they are in, the Pokémon and their tiers around them. The tiers given in the Reborn bot were sometimes 2-3 tiers "off" what their "true" tiers are. This however isn't new information, this was always known. I did say this a few years ago already. 
UwGLKmD.png.e314f3c1f816735520c9430d155e2a94.png

All this update does is make it easier for Spawn Editors to make appealing spawns without having to waste my time for spawns that are instantly dumped because they don't look "as good" on paper. 


The Reborn Bot change had everything to do with what I said in there, nothing with the economy or an auction house. I suggest you read the post again. 

 

 

9 hours ago, smokincatcher said:

If some players are harrassing you for making froakie easier to farm, etc, lot are just beginners, you guys shouldnt even took those demand serious, you really have to see which players want to see the game thrive, and those who just care about them, you do most of the time good improvments for the game, why turning back down with this stupid idea, if you want to trust something, i feel like transparency is VERY important for most players, we only can feel kinda betrayed when you guys remove us a system on we relied during a lot, and around me yesterday i only heard about disapointment and others who just dont care, you guys took this decision stupidly without listening anyone opinion thats the most sad into this, keep it this way wally, felix, or whoever decided this, and u'll see more players gone for good

I never listened to stupid spawn ideas, never have and never will. 

I have seen very dumb suggestions from people with thousands of hours, so no not really. I am very transparent with all my changes. I don't see how there is transparency missing. 
Some decisions will be taking because they are for the better of the game, if some leave because of that, then so be it. We can't hold everyone however what we can do it to try to make the game better, better for us and better for players. You never can make everyone 100% happy, impossible to do. 

 

  • Your appeal will be replied to as soon as the case handling staff member is available. We are all just volunteers with real life responsibilities, other interests and limited free time. Spamming your appeal will not yield a faster reply. Bumps every 24 hours will not(!) increase your chances for a faster reply.
     

     

  • Do not contact staff members for private support. Share your question on the forum due to it being of use for others. Please use the proper forum as well. Unsolicited messages will be deleted. Thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Qeight said:

Common, Uncommon and Rare is not "unreliable". Its way more accurate than some random tiers.

Please explain why you think it's more reliable and accurate. I've already explained, based on the information you and Walross have provided us, why it's objectively worse, that is:

  • The new categories are STILL based on the old tier system. Common is Tier 1, 2 and 3, Uncommon is Tier 4, 5 and 6, and Rare is Tier 7, 8 and 9. We still have not moved away from the conception that having multiple Tier 1 spawns makes all the spawns behind get a lower spawn rate. We just don't know if the Common spawns are Tier 1 or 3 anymore, so it's even harder to tell which areas have their spawns clogged with Tier 1 Pokemons.
  • The possible estimation range is A LOT larger. As I said, the new estimation for average time to spawn would be instant to 5 minutes for Common, 3 minutes to 25 minutes for Uncommon, and 15 to 80 minutes for Rare. However, just looking at the Rare tiers, 7 would be 15 to 30 minutes, 8 would be 25 to 50 minutes, and 9 would be 40 to 80 minutes. Before, the maximum estimation is only twice the minimum, but after, the estimation's maximum is more than 5 times the minimum. Even for a player that doesn't understand how spawn works, going for the average is still a better estimation than going with the new rarity categories.
  • Even if the new categories took into consideration the spawns around and had no overlap in probabilities, it still would be too wide of an estimation with only 3 categories. You'd get instant-4m, 4m-20m, 20m-80m. It's still a maximum at least 4 times larger than the minimum.

 

1 hour ago, Qeight said:

Disagree, RNG is a factor for everything. Hunting on "perceived" best spots while in fact they aren't plus the RNG factor play a role in with a negative experience.

And how does making our perception even more vague improve this point? Before, we could at least get a very good estimate of the rate by looking at other spawns in the area and adjusting the average estimation of the spawn tier. So unless you casually just showed up in a random area where your target Pokemon spawns, you would never end up in the worst spot, you would at least arrive in one of the best spots. It's no longer the case anymore, since you can tell the difference between tier 1 which really clogged the spawn rates, and tier 2 and 3 which don't as much.

 

Here's an example. You want to hunt a Farfetch'd, and you're looking at Route 38 during the Morning. Here's what you see:

 

Pokemon Before After
Magnemite 2 Common
Raticate 3 Common
Snubbull 3 Common
Farfetchd 4 Uncommon

 

Before, you see that there's actually no Tier 1, that's great! That means Farfetch'd would actually feel like closer to Tier 3. So a first estimation could probably be between 3 and 5 minutes per encounter. But after the change? There's 3 Common Pokemon before, you probably assume at least one Tier 1, and shrug it off as not being that good. It's probably around 12 minutes per spawn... But we're not too sure where in the category Farfetch'd stands, so the estimation gotta be somewhere between 6 and 18 minutes.

 

See how we're going farther from the reality now? Whatever we try to estimate can actually be very far off the reality, because not only we cannot tell where in the vague category the target Pokemon stands, but we also can't tell how much the previous categories are clogging the spawn rates.

 

1 hour ago, Qeight said:

Last thing I will ever think of what people say, if they start using "common, uncommon, rare" that would be for the better. 

Yes, at first glance, having categories name is more representative than numbers. But remember that category names are still very vague: In other Pokemon MMORPGs, Rare can mean you're not expected to see one before farming 24 hours. In the end, regardless of if we give a category name or a tier number, we still have to explain how much time you're expected to be hunting before finding one in average.

 

The difference is that as an older player that have known tiers, I would rather give a tier as an answer, rather than a vague category. If someone asks me "How rare is Charmander?", my complete answer would be "It's Rare, but it was Tier 8 before, so unless nothing changed, it should take around 20-25 minutes to find one in average". See how I need to use both old and new vocabulary to try to be up to date, and to give the most accurate answer at the same time?

  • Like 9

214157603_sayumigrowlithesignature.png.4a2a82daf244704d7e1e67f4faf14065.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Haneroze said:

.

I simply disagree with you there, you base your "estimations" on really nothing. Just out of thin air pulled numbers with no actual meaning, guess what? Tiers were the same way. 

 

  • Haha 1
  • Your appeal will be replied to as soon as the case handling staff member is available. We are all just volunteers with real life responsibilities, other interests and limited free time. Spamming your appeal will not yield a faster reply. Bumps every 24 hours will not(!) increase your chances for a faster reply.
     

     

  • Do not contact staff members for private support. Share your question on the forum due to it being of use for others. Please use the proper forum as well. Unsolicited messages will be deleted. Thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Qeight said:

I simply disagree with you there, you base your "estimations" on really nothing. Just out of thin air pulled numbers with no actual meaning, guess what? Tiers were the same way. 
 

These estimations are based on personal experience, and they have been in general pretty accurate. If you are just shutting down my arguments because I do not know the exact spawn rates, then please provide us with that information so that we stand on equal ground. Until then, an argument from a player's point of view will ALWAYS be based on estimation, because this is the most accurate information we can use. And it will ALWAYS remain the basis of a player's experience. 

 

And besides, that my personal estimations are accurate or not does not matter one bit for my argument. There's surely players who have been keeping better track of their spawns and can give better spawn estimations for each tiers. What the exact values are does not matter one bit, what matters is the logic behind the estimations. And you have yet to provide counter-arguments to prove that logic wrong.

  • Like 11

214157603_sayumigrowlithesignature.png.4a2a82daf244704d7e1e67f4faf14065.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have read both Qeight and Haneroze and must agree with Haneroze idea on Rarity tier. I think it would be best to keep the tier as 1-9 as before, since it has better estimation and better view for player to try there luck at the hunting ground. Tier 8 would definitely harder to find then tier 7 and easier than tier 9 which is already a really good system for player to understand their values. When combining it into simple "Common", "Uncommon", when selling those Pokemon, it's hard for the seller, or buyer to estimate their price at best to sell them:

 

For example (this is base on before the update tier because I don't remember all the new tier): selling a Gligar tier 7 would definitely be cheaper than selling a Gible tier 8. If we just combined it in to one simple tier Rare, how can we now estimate it's price on the market, both as seller and buyer. I don't know how other sellers set their price but for me, I always set them in a consideration of their tier in the wild and their availability in PVP. So after this update in game and on Reborn. I was really confused on how to set up my price and have to look back on prowiki to estimate their rarity and calculate it. 

 

Every other update is cool by me also with spawn rarity update, but this new estimate rarity system is the most confusing thing I have ever seen. It is definitely a step back. Hope you reconsider this!

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nhocsake said:

When combining it into simple "Common", "Uncommon", when selling those Pokemon, it's hard for the seller, or buyer to estimate their price at best to sell them:

That's a very good point! There's already a lot of factors that goes into the price of a Pokemon. Ability, Hidden Power, Nature, IVs, especially if it needs 31 Speed, usability in PvP, shiny/event form... But also how hard it is to hunt it. Even with every information being very clear, it's still very hard to be able to put a value on a Pokemon. Every sale is unique, you can't just look at previous sales and put the same price like with Coin Capsules.

 

But now that the spawn tiers are vague, it's gonna be even harder to put the right price. If the seller has been hardcore hunting in an area, sure he could probably estimate the spawn rate of his sales, but for someone who just passed by and casually found a shiny or caught a rare-looking Pokemon with very good stats, he would have no idea of the actual spawn rate. And that's no better for a buyer who probably haven't even hunted the Pokemon in the first place. It's easier to misunderstand the real spawn rate of a Pokemon... And it's also easier for a seller to lie about it and try to sell for more than the real value of the Pokemon.

Edited by Shizeria
  • Like 4

214157603_sayumigrowlithesignature.png.4a2a82daf244704d7e1e67f4faf14065.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

It is normal that not the entire community can agree or disagree with a change (there are many example here worth to be made, such as greninja/aegislash cases, random battles and not only).

However, regardless if you agree or disagree with a change, respect is necessary and no disrespectful message or insults are allowed.

 

Community opinion and feedback are really important and valued, however not doing what community wants doesn't mean not valuing community opinion.

Playing the "staff don't value community opinion" every time a decision is taken where NOT 100% of the community agree with it (not like it's possible to make everyone agree with) is just immature and not productive at all.

 

Please, keep sharing your opinion and feedback with us as we really appreciate it. However, do keep in mind as well everything just stated above.

 

Kind regards, 

 

 Shinohara/Keita.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Shinohara

 

forumsignature.gif

 

General Support - Report Center - Complaint Area - Discipline Appeals

 

Please do not contact staff members for private support

Share your questions on the forums as they could be useful to others

Unsolicited messages will be destroyed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But whats happening when the whole community of farmers disagree with this, and we didnt even had a word to say about it, u guys just throw it in our faces like this, and just tell us to deal with it

 

Banning mons is normal, and often those who complain are those who abuse of them (i told often ), random battles not every people like it but it doesnt harm those who dont like, and its an improvment for the game nobody can tell otherwise i guess, but here we are talking about a "feature" we had during a lot, which was removed from us, and you guys are telling us this is better now but we'll only go for random spawns now, spending even more time than before for farming, how is it an improvment?? seriously i really want to know, and i will be glad if there is a good reason but i think again and again, and there is not, we have to make our own bot reborn now? even if one already exists, maybe its not 100% accurate, but i can tell after almost 10 000h playtime it always worked for me, and all guildmates who farm, it was so useful absolutely nobody can deny this, and someone decided to make it useless, thats very simple

Edited by smokisenpai
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll just go with one bigger post than getting into every titbit that was mentioned here. Starting off I will not allow disrespectful comments towards me or my work, you will be forum banned for a day if done. Nonsense posts such as I don't listen to feedback, I make the game worse, "fuck prehax", "dictator" & anything like that will be sanctioned. I have put way too much work and hours into spawns to be disrespected by anyone, staff or player alike. 

Tiers are a concept that Nikola thought of a long long time ago. They were split into 4 major tiers with 9 additional sub tiers. within those 9 additional sub tiers we had 20 additional sub tiers that were used. Those additional sub tiers were never visible to players. We have more that "could" be used but aren't because their spawning percentage is way too high or way too low. As example for this would be any Tier 1 spawn before February 2019, that was the date I removed the highest value we used. Tier 1 spawns used to be even more common. The same applies for Zorua when it was first introduced, not many of you will be remember. This spawn was almost 2-3 times as hard as a Tier 9 spawn elsewhere. 

Spawn tiers are on a spectrum, their values can be adjusted. We define tiers by X value (the February 2019 update also removed all the additional invisible sub tiers), the value is totally irrelevant and doesn't correlate to the end result at all. For example it could be 139 for what we define Tier 4 but in reality Tier 4 spawns on average 8.5% to 12% of all encounters on the map (The 139 is a fictional number to illustrate how absurdly irrelevant they are to the end result). 
tier.png.df983e9830f00613d2496734ed2c2117.png

So having this out of the way, we used to not give out tiers at all. The "Tier 1" has no correlation to their values given by Spawn Editors, it simply meant "Abundant". 
This is how the tiering worked when Nikola introduced it. I don't even believe Cames or Eaty were aware of these things as the Reborn Bot doesn't sort them by their rarity but rather the given number by spawn editors (the above explained spectrum/range of values for a tier like 136-137 could be Tier 4). 
 

Tier Name
1 Abundant
1 Common
2 Uncommon
2 Meager
2 Occasional
3 Scarce
3 Sparse
4 Rare
4 Extremely Rare
Spoiler

1694580419_Tiersystem.png.4f988a6222fb75f9198464e99c334f4a.png


Tiers were never numbers, they were words to explain their rarity. As it was now countless times said that there are no real tiers. The "true" rarity depends on the surrounding area. So a Tier 1 Pokémon may appear to 61% on one spot but only 41% on another one, same Tier 1 spawn, same rarity given by Spawn Editors (actual test results from spawn testing). The real rarity wouldn't be "Tier 1" it would simply be labeled as Abundant as that's a more accurate description of what a "Tier 1" is. 

It was often mentioned here, on discord or in-game how its impossible to distinguish a "Tier 7" or a "Tier 9" spawn now as both are labeled as rare on the Reborn Bot, however its a more accurate description than naming it "Tier 7" or "Tier 8". Through spawn testing we could obviously figure out average values of certain tiers if they are in correlation with other tiers. 

To understand this you will need to understand how spawning and amount of Pokémon influence rarities. The more Pokémon spawn on one map, the less likely it is you will get a certain one that you are looking for. Hence I only used spawn models that I think are good, where I can roughly estimate the % values of the Pokémon on the map. For me the sweet spot was 8 Pokémon. Down below you can see some examples for a long time ago, Vulcan Path shows nicely how 2x Tier 8 almost share the same percentage, one Tier 8 would most likely be 2.4% and not 1.2%, if I however add another Pokémon with a lower tier, like in Vulcan Forest, the Tier 8 swaps their percentage values. 
 

Spoiler

806373906_Test1.png.13639d0434821eb1ebf4495590e79d2b.png1822323857_Test2.png.e625c06cbb0ff3b4ef070d1c6d61cde6.png



So far we established that tiers are a meaningless construct and should have never been used, their names should have been used. It was always misleading & inaccurate. It was never possible to estimate time to encounter a Pokémon as each map has their individual rarities. Not all maps not even the majority are constructed the way with 8 spawns, they often have more or less spawns. 

The change with the Reborn Bot wasn't 100% necessary however it gives me as Spawn Editor more freedom to do what I want without having users' look at spawns and give false information/misinterpretation of them. A lot of times a Tier 8 spawn for example is disregarded because it has a Tier 7 spawn elsewhere, however the Tier 8 spawn might be significantly better than their Tier 7 counterpart. 

The argument about time estimations is sadly something I can't take into account, we can only talk in averages and test results. Personal experience is good and fine however nothing beats actual testing. 

Let's take an average of 2.5 encounters per minute, with a testing duration of (7 days/168hours), you would encounter a "rare" Pokémon about 3 times on average per hour. 
an uncommon Pokémon about 20-30 times and the rest would be common Pokémon. Those are factual testing results with the 8-spawn-sytem. 

Giving estimates how much time it would approximately take based on looking at the spawn is not possible, it simply isn't. RNG is a major factor, while you can average 3 rare Pokémon per hour on a large scale testing round, you might not encounter one for 2 hours. Those are individual experiences & nothing factual. I used factual/fact but in the end its all still random/RNG, we need to realize that. Your experience is not my experience. 
 



The argument about how much a Pokémon is valued? It used to be a good factor when pricing/valuing a Pokémon however nowadays nature, IVs, PvP usefulness is way more important. There are rare Pokémon that are absolutely worthless besides maybe their shiny/form parts. 

The argument about information discovery, ideally people will figure out the best spots on their own and won't falsely fall for a trap because they don't understand how the system works. 
 


To sum it all up, the Reborn data was never accurate, never was and never will be. Users' got way too comfortable with describing the rarity of a Pokémon by a random tier number without understanding what that tier actually meant. Going back to a descriptive form of naming the rarity makes more sense as it accurately displays the rarity. A "rare" Pokémon is simply rare, users' saying that a rare Pokémon could be anything, so could a Tier 9. That argument is invalid. A "rare" spawn reflects it better as it doesn't spawn as often as a common or uncommon Pokémon. 

The change gives me as Spawn Editor more freedom to design spawns without having them disregarded instantly because users' think they are worse than what is currently in the game. I might add that 95% of the spawn changes that were done since 2017 were done by me/decided by me. So if some old-timers are still around, we gladly can go back to the 2016 era, where hunting for hours to not see a single rare Pokémon was very common. 

Your feedback is valued as long as it doesn't attack me, insults me or attacks the work I have done for years. If you say I don't value hunters, I don't listen to feedback then you are simply stupid and need to go run around the block for a bit to cool down. There is enough evidence that I always listened to users' but sometimes users' want something that doesn't align with the vision for spawns that I have. If I didn't care, you would all receive 12 Pokémon spots with 6x Common Pokemon like the game used to be/still is in some areas. 

 Peace~ 

 

  • Like 2
  • Your appeal will be replied to as soon as the case handling staff member is available. We are all just volunteers with real life responsibilities, other interests and limited free time. Spamming your appeal will not yield a faster reply. Bumps every 24 hours will not(!) increase your chances for a faster reply.
     

     

  • Do not contact staff members for private support. Share your question on the forum due to it being of use for others. Please use the proper forum as well. Unsolicited messages will be deleted. Thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Qeight locked this topic
  • Shinohara unlocked this topic
  • Qeight unlocked, locked and unpinned this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...