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June 2021 - Spawn Rarity Update & Reborn Bot Update


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I want to say 1st, i help understand how spawns works to everyone listen to me since a lot, im here since 2016, i've spoke so many time about spawns with kaminokage really good guy who helped me understand a lot about probabilities etc, we already talked about the fact there is more factors than just t1 to t9, i already knew that, but thanks for make it even more clear here, this i can call transparency.

Anyway i can assure you bot helped us all so much even with lack of accuracy u say, u might have heard about kami's tool he made after talking to you, allowed us to get an average % for each poké in each spot.  He gave us this tool telling it couldnt be accurate 100% but i used it a lot to compare spots, and yeah nothing worth more than a real try, but we cant just try all spawns we would need stats like u did 8 to 10K spawns at least per spot, and there is so many, and we would have to do this for each poké we are looking for this will be much more time consuming than its already. Why not asking players to share farm data with you maybe with something like pro better farm? to make a better bot or make it more accurate instead of ripping it 😕

 

Real farmers of before this wouldnt for sure just go to the t7 spawn straight cuz others are t8, real farmers check other tiers on the same zone for each, and then tries the best looking one, and sometimes we compare with friends on others spots, or just people we met in all channel, anyway we were not blind in this, bot was a really good help, and now bot look like so useless, we cant have any clue on which spot could be best, just try to see spawns for a t4 like misdreavus for example, there is so many spots u'll get an headache instead of going to hunt.

To answer you about some points, i know personally that farm is now much better than it use to be in 2016, definitely, and if you put too many hours of work doin the spawns ( which i respect )and feeling sad when we all complain, its kinda same for us we take this bot change for an attack against the time we invested ingame, we felt kinda disrespected as a community which didnt had a word to say about such an important thing like this 

Hope this make all clearer too, peace  #makebotgreatagain

PS : plz dont delete this one even if im overreacting sometimes my only goal is to talk

Edited by smokisenpai
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http://fsogame.free.fr/tools/calcspawnpercentage.php

btw if some wants to see this is the tool i was talking about above, i remind it cant be 100% accurate, but it helped me having a tip on where starting the farm

Btw last time i used it was to compare metang repel trick with new beldum repel trick  ( both t9 ), this tool told me that beldum repel was better like around 0,67% for beldum, and 0,49% for metang if im right (not really sure for %) and yes obviously after many hours on both, and hearing what mates told me , beldum repel trick is better

Edited by smokisenpai
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1 hour ago, Qeight said:

Burada bahsedilen her titbit'e girmekten daha büyük bir gönderi ile gideceğim. Öncelikle bana veya işime saygısız yorumlar yapılmasına izin vermeyeceğim, yapılırsa bir gün forumdan uzaklaştırılacaksınız. Geri bildirimleri dinlemem, oyunu daha da kötüleştiririm, "siktir et prehax", "diktatör" gibi saçma sapan gönderiler ve bunun gibi her şey onaylanacak. Herhangi biri, personel veya oyuncu tarafından saygısızlık edilmeyecek kadar çok iş ve saat harcadım. 

Katmanlar, Nikola'nın uzun zaman önce düşündüğü bir kavramdır. 9 ek alt katman ile 4 ana katmana ayrıldılar. Bu 9 ek alt katmanda, kullanılan 20 ek alt katmanımız vardı. Bu ek alt katmanlar hiçbir zaman oyuncular tarafından görülmedi. "Kullanılabilecek" daha çok şeyimiz var ama yumurtlama yüzdeleri çok yüksek veya çok düşük olduğu için değil. Buna örnek olarak, kullandığımız en yüksek değeri kaldırdığım tarih olan Şubat 2019'dan önceki herhangi bir Katman 1 yumurtlaması olabilir. Tier 1 yumurtlamalar eskiden daha da yaygındı. Aynısı Zorua ilk tanıtıldığı zaman için de geçerlidir, çoğunuz hatırlamayacaksınız. Bu yumurtlama, Tier 9'un başka bir yerde ortaya çıkmasından neredeyse 2-3 kat daha zordu. 

Spawn katmanları bir spektrumdadır, değerleri ayarlanabilir. Katmanları X değerine göre tanımlarız (Şubat 2019 güncellemesi ayrıca tüm ek görünmez alt katmanları da kaldırdı), değer tamamen alakasız ve nihai sonuçla hiçbir şekilde ilişkili değil. Örneğin, Tier 4 tanımladığımız şey için 139 olabilir, ancak gerçekte Tier 4, haritadaki tüm karşılaşmaların ortalama %8,5 ila %12'sini oluşturur (139, nihai sonuçla ne kadar saçma bir şekilde alakasız olduklarını göstermek için kurgusal bir sayıdır) .  Bu yüzden, bunu yoldan çıkardığımızdan, katmanları hiç vermiyorduk. "Kademe 1", Spawn Editörleri tarafından verilen değerlerle hiçbir korelasyona sahip değildir, sadece "Bol" anlamına gelir. 
tier.png.df983e9830f00613d2496734ed2c2117.png


Nikola tanıttığında katmanlama bu şekilde çalıştı. Reborn Bot onları nadirliklerine göre değil, spawn editörleri tarafından verilen sayıya göre sıraladığından, Cames veya Eaty'nin bu şeylerin farkında olduğuna bile inanmıyorum (yukarıda açıklanan spektrum/değer aralığı 136-137 gibi bir katman için). Tier 4) olabilir. 
 

Katman isim
1 Bol
1 Yaygın
2 Yaygın olmayan
2 Yetersiz
2 Ara sıra
3 kıt
3 Seyrek
4 Nadir
4 Son derece Nadir
  Gizli içerikleri ortaya çıkarın

1694580419_Tiersystem.png.4f988a6222fb75f9198464e99c334f4a.png


Katmanlar asla sayılar değildi, nadirliklerini açıklayan kelimelerdi. Şimdi olduğu gibi, sayısız kez gerçek katmanların olmadığı söylendi. "Gerçek" nadirlik, çevredeki alana bağlıdır. Yani bir Kademe 1 Pokémon bir noktada %61, başka bir yerde sadece %41, aynı Kademe 1 yumurtlama, Spawn Editörleri tarafından verilen aynı nadirlik (yumurtlama testinden elde edilen gerçek test sonuçları) görünebilir. Gerçek nadirlik "Kademe 1" olmayacaktı, sadece Bol olarak etiketlenecekti, çünkü bu "Kademe 1" in ne olduğunun daha doğru bir açıklamasıydı. 

Burada, anlaşmazlıkta veya oyun içinde, "Kademe 7" veya "Kademe 9" spawn'ı ayırt etmenin imkansız olduğundan sık sık bahsedildi, çünkü her ikisi de Reborn Bot'ta nadir olarak etiketlendi, ancak bu, adlandırmaktan daha doğru bir açıklama "Katman 7" veya "Katman 8". Ortaya çıkma testi yoluyla, diğer katmanlarla korelasyon içindeyseler, belirli katmanların ortalama değerlerini açıkça bulabiliriz. 

Bunu anlamak için yumurtlamanın ve Pokémon miktarının nadirlikleri nasıl etkilediğini anlamanız gerekecek. Bir haritada ne kadar çok Pokémon ortaya çıkarsa, aradığınızı bulma olasılığınız o kadar azalır. Bu yüzden sadece iyi olduğunu düşündüğüm spawn modellerini kullandım, burada Pokémon'un haritadaki % değerlerini kabaca tahmin edebiliyorum. Benim için tatlı nokta 8 Pokémon'du. Aşağıda, uzun zaman önce bazı örnekler görebilirsiniz, Vulcan Path, 2x Tier 8'in neredeyse aynı yüzdeyi nasıl paylaştığını güzel bir şekilde gösteriyor, ancak daha düşük bir Pokémon eklersem, bir Tier 8 büyük olasılıkla% 2.4 ve% 1.2 değil. Kademe, Vulcan Ormanı'nda olduğu gibi, Kademe 8 yüzde değerlerini değiştirir. 
 

  İçeriği gizle

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Şimdiye kadar katmanların anlamsız bir yapı olduğunu ve hiç kullanılmaması gerektiğini, adlarının kullanılması gerektiğini belirledik. Her zaman yanıltıcı ve yanlıştı. Her haritanın kendine özgü nadirlikleri olduğu için bir Pokémon ile karşılaşma zamanını tahmin etmek asla mümkün olmadı. Tüm haritalar, çoğunluğu bile 8 yumurtlama ile oluşturulmaz, genellikle az ya da çok yumurtlamaları vardır. 

Reborn Bot ile yapılan değişiklik %100 gerekli değildi, ancak Spawn Editor olarak bana, kullanıcıların yumurtlamalara bakmadan ve yanlış bilgi/yanlış yorumlama vermeden istediklerimi yapma özgürlüğü veriyor. Örneğin bir Tier 8 yumurtlaması, başka bir yerde Tier 7 yumurtlaması olduğu için çoğu zaman göz ardı edilir, ancak Tier 8 yumurtlaması, Tier 7 muadillerinden önemli ölçüde daha iyi olabilir. 

Zaman tahminleriyle ilgili argüman ne yazık ki hesaba katamayacağım bir şey, sadece ortalamalar ve test sonuçları hakkında konuşabiliriz. Kişisel deneyim iyi ve iyidir, ancak hiçbir şey gerçek testi geçemez. 

Test süresi (7 gün/168 saat) ile dakikada ortalama 2,5 karşılaşma alalım, saatte ortalama 3 kez "nadir" bir Pokémon ile karşılaşacaksınız. 
20-30 kez alışılmadık bir Pokémon ve gerisi sıradan Pokémon olurdu. Bunlar, 8-spawn sistemi ile gerçek test sonuçlarıdır. 

Yumurtlamaya bakarak yaklaşık olarak ne kadar zaman alacağını tahmin etmek mümkün değildir, sadece değildir. RNG önemli bir faktördür, büyük ölçekli bir test turunda saatte ortalama 3 nadir Pokémon alabilirsiniz, ancak 2 saat boyunca karşılaşmayabilirsiniz. Bunlar bireysel deneyimler ve gerçek değil. Olgusal/gerçek kullandım ama sonunda hepsi hala rastgele/RNG, bunu anlamamız gerekiyor. Sizin deneyiminiz benim deneyimim değil. 
 



Bir Pokémon'un ne kadar değerli olduğu konusundaki tartışma? Bir Pokémon'u fiyatlandırmak/değerlendirmek için eskiden iyi bir faktördü, ancak günümüzde doğa, IV'ler, PvP kullanışlılığı çok daha önemli. Belki parlak/form parçalarının yanı sıra kesinlikle değersiz olan nadir Pokémonlar vardır. 

Bilgi keşfiyle ilgili argüman, ideal olarak insanlar en iyi noktaları kendi başlarına bulacaklar ve sistemin nasıl çalıştığını anlamadıkları için yanlış bir tuzağa düşmeyecekler. 
 


Hepsini özetlemek gerekirse, Reborn verileri hiçbir zaman doğru olmadı, hiçbir zaman olmadı ve olmayacak. Kullanıcılar, bir Pokémon'un nadirliğini rastgele bir katman numarasıyla, bu katmanın gerçekte ne anlama geldiğini anlamadan açıklamakta çok rahat ettiler. Nadirliği doğru bir şekilde gösterdiği için, enderliği adlandırmanın açıklayıcı bir biçimine geri dönmek daha mantıklıdır. "Nadir" bir Pokémon sadece nadirdir, kullanıcılar nadir bir Pokémon'un herhangi bir şey olabileceğini söyler, böylece bir Tier 9 da olabilir. Bu argüman geçersiz. "Nadir" bir yumurtlama, yaygın veya nadir bir Pokémon kadar sık ortaya çıkmadığı için onu daha iyi yansıtır. 

Değişiklik, Spawn Editor olarak bana, kullanıcılar şu anda oyunda olandan daha kötü olduklarını düşündükleri için, yumurtlamaları anında göz ardı etmeden tasarlama konusunda daha fazla özgürlük veriyor. 2017'den beri yapılan spawn değişikliklerinin %95'inin benim tarafımdan yapıldığını/kararlaştırıldığını da ekleyebilirim. Bu nedenle, bazı eski zamanlayıcılar hala buralardaysa, tek bir nadir Pokémon görmemek için saatlerce avlanmanın çok yaygın olduğu 2016 dönemine memnuniyetle geri dönebiliriz. 

Geri bildiriminiz bana saldırmadığı, hakaret etmediği veya yıllardır yaptığım işe saldırmadığı sürece değerlidir. Avcılara değer vermediğimi, geri bildirimleri dinlemediğimi söylüyorsanız, o zaman sadece aptalsınız ve biraz serinlemek için bloğun etrafında koşmanız gerekiyor. Her zaman kullanıcıları dinlediğime, ancak bazen kullanıcıların sahip olduğum yumurtlama vizyonuyla uyuşmayan bir şey istediğine dair yeterli kanıt var. Umursamasaydım, oyun eskiden/hala bazı bölgelerde olduğu gibi hepinize 6x Ortak Pokemon ile 12 Pokémon noktası alacaktınız. 

 Barış~ 

 

I am very happy with your update. You should't consider the toxic comments. Unfortunately, they do not know the difficulty of their job. 

Edited by dorkmesh
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Thank you for your reply to the problem Qeight but still I have something to add to your opinion.

 

1 hour ago, Qeight said:

Tier 8 would most likely be 2.4% and not 1.2%, if I however add another Pokémon with a lower tier, like in Vulcan Forest, the Tier 8 swaps their percentage values. 

 

Thanks for this detail experience you have made. I can see that the percentage is different in the same tier 8 but compare it to Tier 9, it still higher, which means there are different in time investing hunting it. I have also run hours of hunting and I have also make a small test by myself if a tier 7 is harder to find then tier 6 (just for fun though) but it turns out that it does. After 2 hours in each site of hunting Gligar in Dragon Den B1F and Route 45, the box of hunting on Dragon Den B1F is always LESS than on Route 45 by 2-5. Which does impact the time to invest in hunting them and the amount of having them. I have only done this once to twice so it is definitely not as detailed proof as yours, if possible can I have more number on Tier different by 1 so that I have different thought on it?

 

1 hour ago, Qeight said:

So far we established that tiers are a meaningless construct and should have never been used, their names should have been used. It was always misleading & inaccurate. It was never possible to estimate time to encounter a Pokémon as each map has their individual rarities.

 

It does impact as a hunter himself/herself. I would always choose the hunting ground with lower tier to hunt because for my spirit site I always want to hunt more in much less time. Pokémon hunting is all about luck on IVs different so it is always the best option to invest less time with more pokes gather, to see how luck leads and how our work is worth the investment.

More one this: some players are lazy to hunt for a tier 8-9 Pokes so they decice to buy one for Dex. If this is the case, a trash tier 6 will now have the same price as trash tier 8-9? I don't think it will be fair for the time being invest though. A more detailed rarity should be considered because that what makes the Pokes valuable and their price

 

If too much rarity is the case then I would highly suggest my opinion as follow:

  • Instead of just combining all in to 3 large category of rarity, I would suggest to combine Tier 1-2, 3-4, 5-6, 7-8 and 9 into Abundent, Common, Uncommon, etc. I don't and can't decide this. But this is also a less time investing for you and easier for hunter/seller like me to calculate each Pokemon price (so win - win)
  • Synchronized the tier of all Pokémon (For example: all Gible is tier 8 except in Safari tier 7 for MS user going along with other high-tier Pokes like Scyther, Pinsir so that the rates is still high but not to high that it makes the Pokemon lost it value). I learn this by hunting in Sinnoh where Meditite, Swablu, Scyther is there at the same time. It's hard to get one specific but they have all the same sync use and it is really fun to hunt there, you don't know when will you have an epic one. 

Of course this is all my suggestion, you can decide to follow it or not is up to the dev team, but I hope you really consider, if it is possible. 🙂 

 

1 hour ago, Qeight said:

If you say I don't value hunters, I don't listen to feedback then you are simply stupid and need to go run around the block for a bit to cool down

 

This is my personal comment. If you don't want anyone to attack or insult you, please be the pioneer. Treat them with kindness instead of going with them and saying that they are stupid. They are just toxic player and they always are, in every MMO. Appointing them as stupid doesn't ease thing down at all, but only to put more gas in the fire.

About not paying attention to opinion, I personally does feel like you and some Game Master doesn't care about our opinion because I hardly see any response or action from you guys about the community idea. I have been through a lot of comment on the forum and my advice, and I think maybe for a majority of players, if you already read a comment or advice, just simply give it a Thanks reaction as a thank you for their advice, or a small reply is good enough, as to show them that you have already read it and might consider it (I don't think it would cost alot of time since you already have time to read it). It is what the reactions are for, am I correct?

We are players and when we spend our time giving our advice to you, that mean we do care about the game and its improvement. We are just like you guys, love the Pokemon concept and want to contribute to it. That's why we, like I did, make donation to keep it alive and also for you game master to have inspiration to continue with the hard work. We thank you for your work but also we really appreciate and looking for your action to show that you do care about our comment. 🙂 

 

Finally, thank you for your time making a clarification on the spawn rate again. Have a good day / night.

 

Kind regards,

Nhocsake

Edited by Nhocsake
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Never really hunted too much except maybe two times seriously throughout my time in PRO, so I will take your word for it that this is accurate and tbh it makes sense seeing it that this would be the case.

 

What I care about more is understanding why we want to standardize I suppose every hunting spot for a Pokemon. If they are all accessible I get having a difference in rarity is pointless because it just makes you hunt in one place but I do think there is not a lot of variety to hunting except the choice in what you hunt and whether you repel or not.

 

Places in the game like BCC should be promoted to enhance hunting experience without the need for abuse by people just camping their lives there or other interesting ideas that makes it not just a mindless back and forth run. Would like to see more potential since I do think that Mirage Island, BCC, and Excavations are really spiced up variety the game needs.

LucarioSignature.gif.350c1b5461dad032ce9444ecf1edfdf8.gif

 

Check out my YOUTUBE if you like fun shenanigans:

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2 hours ago, Qeight said:

[...]

First and foremost, thank you for taking the time to explain the system and provide us with some spawn data and other facts.

 

Looking at your explanation and the data, it does confirm most of the theories I've had from my experience and observations. I did estimate that each tier is about 1.5 times rarer than the previous tier, and the testing data you've provided us proves this to be a good guideline... Except for Tier 1. I did feel that the difference between tier 1 and 2 was rather larger, although I did not expect that difference to be 4 times rarer, or at least up to.

 

I also agree that words are more meaningful than numbers... Although I wouldn't say as much from the name tiers that were originally given for the 9 sub tiers. While numbers don't speak as much when you don't know where they start and where they end, it's easy to grasp the "order". But for words, we can't quite always grasp the order. We don't see words like "Meagre" often, and it would rather be hard to remember which one is the most common between "Scarce" and "Sparse". I imagine the difficulty to grasp the exact order and ranking of the rarity vocabulary is the reason we settled with just numbers.

 

That said, the data does prove that my points still stand. But before, for the sake of my arguments, let me provide a fictional table, based on your Vulcan Forest data. I've created two new columns: one where I assume there are 3 tier 1 spawns, and another where I assume there are none. The idea behind the calculation is that by removing the 4548 spawns, or by adding more 4548 Tier 1 spawns without changing the amount of tier 2+ spawns, I can simulate how the weight distribution gets shifted. It might now be 100% accurate, but it should be close enough to the reality.

 

1810189467_fictionaltable.png.a1d4d370c1ad9820d4fd114e227bc2a7.png

 


Tier 1

 

The big thing to notice is that the amount of Tier 1 is far too important to bundle it into another category. I wasn't sure how much Tier 2 clogged the spawns, but with Tier 1 being 4 times more common than tier 2, it's definitely the main culprit of lowering the spawn rates of what's below. If there's no Tier 1, the spawn rate of Tier 8 can more than double! If there's 3 Tier 1, the spawn rate of Tier 8 can go lower than half! Meanwhile, if we compare Route 116 with Vulcan Path, we can see that Tier 2 is not making that much of a difference.

 

Therefore, it is absolutely crucial that we can tell which Pokemon are Tier 1 in an area. Without knowing that, there is simply no way that we can get an idea of which area is better than the others.

 


Estimation Range

 

The other thing to see is that tiers do have an estimation range rather restricted. From your data, Tier 8 stands between 0.94% and 1.28%. With my fictional table, going up to 3 Tier 1 in the area, it's between 0.45% and 0.96%, which is just like I said in my previous messages: the upper limit of the estimation is around twice that of the lower limit. Even if we include the situation where there's no tier 1, the upper limit reaches 5 times the lower limit, although we have to take into consideration that you might be taking more time to enter a battle anyway (As noticeable in areas with no tier 1 and 2).

 

It is still definitely better than reducing to 3 categories. From your data, Common would become like 10% to 100%, Uncommon would become like 2% to 10%, and Rare would be 0.8% to 2%. If you include the 3 tier 1 column of my fictionnal table, you rather see that there's a rather big overlap, Common being ~5% to 100%, Uncommon being ~1% to ~10%, and Rare being 0.4% to 2%. It gets even worse if you include the column with no tier 1.

 

So we definitely lose a lot of information, and we can't give an accurate estimation. Even if the displayed rarities were determined on the spawn chance rather than the tier, AKA no overlap in percentages, it would still result in a lot more vague information that is not reliable enough. 

 

With 5 rarity categories instead, we could have:
- Abundant: 25% to 100%
- Common: 10% to 25%
- Uncommon: 4% to 10%
- Rare: 1.5% to 4%
- Very rare: 1.5% and under (lower limit estimated to 0.5%)

 

We would still be losing information as the upper limit is more than double the lower limit, but we'd be at least somewhat close enough. However, there would still be another problem that rises.

 

With the old tier system, we can give an "average" spawn chance for each tier, and tell how much it deviates according to the amount of tier 1 in the area. 3 tier 1? We deviate downwards. Only 1 tier 1? We deviate upwards. We may not know how much exactly we should deviate, but it would still land us close enough to the real spawn rate. But with a rarity category based on the spawn chance, we lose that information and we still don't know where exactly the chance actually is within the category.

 

The difference is a bit like between trying to guess the result of the average of two dice throw, or trying to guess the result of a single die throw. In the former, the probability weight is heavier in the middle, so 3 and 4 are better guesses, while the probability weight is equal all around for a single die throw. The upper and lower limits are the same, but you're still more likely to be closer to the actual result with the two dice throw.
 

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Off-topic stuff gets deleted, disrespectful stuff gets sanctioned and you can critique a change Devs did without having to insult my work. Thank you, the bigger post was moved to complaints where it belongs. Keep on topic from now on. 

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  • Administrator

 

As I said before, every sort of opinion and feedback are appreciated as long as they are given with respect (no taunts, insults, provocation, etc).

Thread has been created exactly to hear community. If you think about it, if no one would care then you would not be able to even see this thread.

 

As for the comments being deleted, they are the one that are totally unrelated to the Spawn (or violating behaviour rules) and therefore they are misleading/off topic, and therefore unproductive in this context.

 

We accept both disagreement and agreement when it comes to community, the important thing is just providing a clear, transparent and honest feedback/opinion in a respectful way.

Also do remember that many disagreeing with something or many agreeing with something doesn't mean that they are the one in the right. It's not numbers that matters, but facts and evidences and the way they are provided.

 

Please, keep this thread related to the Spawn Change/Update and if you have any other complaint related to anything else use the correct subforum General Complaint Area

I will be happy to address any complaint as Administrator and in general as I've always done in my last 3 years of staff career.

 

Also bumping back what I wrote before

Spoiler

It is normal that not the entire community can agree or disagree with a change (there are many example here worth to be made, such as greninja/aegislash cases, random battles and not only).

However, regardless if you agree or disagree with a change, respect is necessary and no disrespectful message or insults are allowed.

 

Community opinion and feedback are really important and valued, however not doing what community wants doesn't mean not valuing community opinion.

Playing the "staff don't value community opinion" every time a decision is taken where NOT 100% of the community agree with it (not like it's possible to make everyone agree with) is just immature and not productive at all.

 

Please, keep sharing your opinion and feedback with us as we really appreciate it. However, do keep in mind as well everything just stated above.

 

Kind regards, 

 

 Shinohara/Keita.

 

Shinohara

 

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Since this is about updates on spawns... Why aint the froakie/oshawott rotation being updated? All info i found was that they rotate monthly tho i never got froakie spawn... Can we know if thats intended or just forgotten? Thanks and keep the good work! Just waiting for pc box setup now 🙂

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