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June 2021 - Spawn Rarity Update & Reborn Bot Update


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If you wanna complain about how feedback is handled: https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/178650-spawn-complaint/

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I find many explanations in your post not good. I didnt understand much when it comes to details. Maybe you mean some stuff different, but then you wrote it different than what you actually mean.

 

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They were split into 4 major tiers with 9 additional sub tiers. within those 9 additional sub tiers we had 20 additional sub tiers that were used.

Here Im not sure if I understood this part correct: There were 720 different tiers? And why 'were', they dont exist anymore? I thought you just dont use them all.

 

 

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Spawn tiers are on a spectrum, their values can be adjusted. We define tiers by X value (the February 2019 update also removed all the additional invisible sub tiers), the value is totally irrelevant and doesn't correlate to the end result at all. For example it could be 139 for what we define Tier 4 but in reality Tier 4 spawns on average 8.5% to 12% of all encounters on the map (The 139 is a fictional number to illustrate how absurdly irrelevant they are to the end result). 

Confusing stuff starts here.

 

 

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Spawn tiers are on a spectrum, their values can be adjusted.

Do you mean that depending on the value of the number in your spectrum, the spawn tier is determined? Or that you can adjust the value of the tier which is actually already determined by the 'spectrum value'? First I hope.

 

Also Im questioning myself if this spectrum could have the same amount of values as the 720(?!) (sub)tiers you explained at the start and you basically simplify those by generalize them into 9 tiers.

 

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We define tiers by X value (the February 2019 update also removed all the additional invisible sub tiers), the value is totally irrelevant and doesn't correlate to the end result at all.

 

I dont want to be picky, but just to make sure I understand it in the way you mean it: You mean that you define a tier t1 by a value X and a tier t2 by a value Y ?
What result? That sounds super vague to me because you dont explain what you want your result to be. Is the end result the rarity? You say there is no correlation - ok. I leave that as how it is. Then you can basically take any values of your spectrum, they will have no influence on the rarety, because they are irrelevant - as you said.

 

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For example it could be 139 for what we define Tier 4 but in reality Tier 4 spawns on average 8.5% to 12% of all encounters on the map (The 139 is a fictional number to illustrate how absurdly irrelevant they are to the end result).

This is what I mean. Those numbers cant be irrelevant as they have somehow a influence for how rare a Pokemon may be. If they *were* irrelevant, you wouldnt need to determine them somewhere as they were completely useless. Maybe what you mean is, that the value of the number is not connected to a specific percentage number/range. Because you say it yourself 'it could be 139 for what we define Tier 4' and 'but in reality Tier 4 spawns on average 8.5% to 12%'. In reality you said that 139 could be what we define Tier 4. That 139 is tier 4 in this case, this is as real as the spawn percentages. Therefore I dont understand why the number should be irrelevant to the end result. Maybe the number alone has no meaning, but once you compare it it has for sure.

 

Would also be interesting to know if your spectrum has a unit. Or if its a scaling, what unit it scales.

 

 

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The "Tier 1" has no correlation to their values given by Spawn Editors, it simply meant "Abundant". 

Ok. But once you compare the value of different tiers, then you can sort them. And when you compare them, you also should get smt that correlates to how often you see a Pokemon in comparison to others. Not that it would be wrong what you wrote, but just as indroduction for the next part.

 

 

 

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as the Reborn Bot doesn't sort them by their rarity but rather the given number by spawn editors (the above explained spectrum/range of values for a tier like 136-137 could be Tier 4). 

But on your picture you can see that tiers are connected with values from your spectrum. Connected in such a way that a high value (compares to the values of other tiers) means low tier and a high value a high tier - totally unattached by which exact value or value range which tier would be. Therefore I dont understand why you cant order rarities by ordering Pokemon by your spawn editor numbers.

 

 

You explained the spawns without explaining to much. Its still vague. Ofc we can assume how they work, but rn I just try to connect my knowledge how spawns work with what you explain.

 

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Tiers were never numbers, they were words to explain their rarity. As it was now countless times said that there are no real tiers. The "true" rarity depends on the surrounding area.

Uhm, Im pretty sure that since I started PRO we had tier 1-9   which are clearly numbers. I say that so dumb because the numbers were always connected to adjectives that describe the numbers. Number = corresponding adjective - the total same thing. I find it very confusing that you say they were never numbers.

 

firefox_2021-06-21_10-14-38.png.c3ff37821721bd3c51908eac4ffad9dd.png
(Ignoring the fact that there is mentioned a tier 10 which idk if you still use it)

 

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So a Tier 1 Pokémon may appear to 61% on one spot but only 41% on another one, same Tier 1 spawn, same rarity given by Spawn Editors (actual test results from spawn testing). The real rarity wouldn't be "Tier 1" it would simply be labeled as Abundant as that's a more accurate description of what a "Tier 1" is. 

"same rarity given by Spawn Editors" Obviously not the same rarity as they have different spawn chances. Depends on the view maybe.
At this point it is important to say that you never stated what you mean with rarity in this situations. Do you mean how often you see a Pokemon in comparison to others, or a single spawn dependend on the value of steps you make. Thats smt different and the reason why people missunderstood the 'tier' word.

 

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The real rarity wouldn't be "Tier 1" it would simply be labeled as Abundant

But tier 1 is considered as Abundant, so how can it be wrong when it is already right. 'Tier 1' is not connected to a percentage number or so.

 

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as that's a more accurate description of what a "Tier 1" is. 

You say it. You say it yourself. Tier 1 is the same as Abunant. But its generally, in normal cases, a better description - as 1 is just a number and 'Abundant' is a adjective where you can imagine something without knowledge. It doesnt change the fact that Tier 1 IS Abundant.

 

 

 

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It was often mentioned here, on discord or in-game how its impossible to distinguish a "Tier 7" or a "Tier 9" spawn now as both are labeled as rare on the Reborn Bot, however its a more accurate description than naming it "Tier 7" or "Tier 8". Through spawn testing we could obviously figure out average values of certain tiers if they are in correlation with other tiers. 

Tier 7 and 9, or 7 and 8 (Whatever) is surely more accurate. I mean, how can it be not more accurate when you can split up the word "rare" in 3 tiers you can order in rarity of your spawn area.

 

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So far we established that tiers are a meaningless construct and should have never been used, their names should have been used.

No, simply because each tier number was connected to an adjective. When you say 'Tier 1' or 'Abundant' - its the same. No difference. There are still three tiers. Common, uncommon and rare.

 

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It was always misleading & inaccurate.

Thats true. And if thats true, its also true for the correspodenting adjective. They are as missleading as the numbers. When you have a Tier 1 Rattata spawn and 15 other Tier 1 spawns, rattata is for sure not 'Abudant'.
This is an extreme case and abviously far away from reality. Especially why you changed stuff over time. In reality we can life with approximations. With the new tier change, those new three names will always describe the spawn correctly - your 8 Mon system reinforces this even more. You could still change the name of new three tiers (common, uncommon, rare) to 1, 2 and 3 or a, b, c or 10, 20, 30. Obviosly the chosen names are the best.

 

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The change with the Reborn Bot wasn't 100% necessary however it gives me as Spawn Editor more freedom to do what I want without having users' look at spawns and give false information/misinterpretation of them. A lot of times a Tier 8 spawn for example is disregarded because it has a Tier 7 spawn elsewhere, however the Tier 8 spawn might be significantly better than their Tier 7 counterpart. 

Yes, a dilemma. If you dont understand that you cant compare different spawn areas with each other without any deeper look, the new system is much better. Even when we lose information - what is obviosly the case.

 

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To sum it all up, the Reborn data was never accurate, never was and never will be. Users' got way too comfortable with describing the rarity of a Pokémon by a random tier number without understanding what that tier actually meant. Going back to a descriptive form of naming the rarity makes more sense as it accurately displays the rarity. A "rare" Pokémon is simply rare, users' saying that a rare Pokémon could be anything, so could a Tier 9. That argument is invalid. A "rare" spawn reflects it better as it doesn't spawn as often as a common or uncommon Pokémon. 

Yes. You say it.

 

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users' saying that a rare Pokémon could be anything, so could a Tier 9

There you say it

 

 

 

When you explain stuff everyone is so pent up with, I at least want to understand what you mean.

 

 

 

 

Generally I find the new spawn change a bit heavy. Having only 3 tiers (what else are they?! They are still tiers) makes hunting uncertain. Before you had the problem that you couldnt compare very well between different spawn areas, but you could see which Pokemon is rare and not so rare on your specific spawn. This is not possible anymore.
It has a positive effet in such a way that new players have maybe a warmer welcome into the spawn game.

Edited by Bash
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Of course I'm talking to myself, sometimes I have to talk with an intelligent person.

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TP4L

 

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Lots of valuable information in this thread, so thanks for providing the insight Qeight. I will keep this rather short.

 

My main gripe with the update is that the "Common" group of pokemon is too broadly defined. The lower rarity pokemon are those you encounter most of the time and therefore are those that consume the most time when hunting a rarer target. As I was gathering from your posts, the tier system as shown in reborn was flawed to begin with, but it still gave a good indication what pokemon you will see the most during your hunt. Here is an example:

 

Spoiler

profarmcaverns.png.246cf140a5f06684c18772d88b38ad69.png

This was my distribution back in December, when I hunted x-mas Axew in Crystal Caverns, I just edited in the tiers that Reborn was giving out that time. As you can see, the T1 spawn was rougly 3.8 times more common than one specific T3 spawn. This is pretty consistent with the data I gathered on Route 212 North in the morning. I chose this route for spawn data gathering since, during mornings, it had at least 1 spawn of each tier, so I collected a small dataset (before the spawn update) to evaluate how I should pick my hunting spots:

 

Spoiler

rt112.png.1cc657ce91d86e574dde33c63ef6e5fc.png

Reborn classified the tiers as T1 (Psyduck) and T3 (Starly) and here, the T1 spawn was also about 3.5 times more common than the T3. I thought the variation between the T3s was because of my limited sample size, but as I understand now, those are just different T3 spawns altogether, so I can see how the information we had and relied on was inaccurate.

 

Still, I think that this spawn data will help to explain what I mean with "Common" is too broad of a classification. A solution to this would be to introduce an extra category for the formerly T1 pokemon, so people can judge spots better. Bundling T7-T9 in one "Rare" tier is fine in my opinion, since it didn't seem to make a huge difference. After reading your posts, I assume that is the case because you already started to flatten out the rarer tiers, so they are not vastly different from each other.

 

I hope you take it into consideration.

Edited by Kary0plasma
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Not gonna reply to everyone. 


Loss of information

Yes you see less now, you don't see "exact" tiers anymore. The tiers meant almost nothing to begin with. 


Misunderstanding regarding tier rarity

"Common" spawns are not all the same, former Tier 1 stuff spawns more often than former Tier 2. It wasn't the goal the make them all the same rarity/make every hunting spot feel the same. 


Not understanding explanations given

For example, how the values Spawn Editors use are irrelevant to the outcome, I had to explain this to staffs and to players several times and its still not clear. The reason why they are not given is that you can't do anything with them, they are as random as the 136 I mentioned. The decimal number that is assigned to for example 136 has no correlation to the end result. It wouldn't help calculate spawn chances either. 


Two changes & why
- First I unified some Pokémon tiers (see changelog) and removed outliers, that was instantly meet with "PrEhAx MaKeS tHe GaMe HaRdEr, HaTeS tHe HuNtErS" etc. This isn't the first time spawn changes were instantly dismissed, disliked without even understanding them. Reason for that is too much information that isn't exactly clear building up false information bubbles. Reason for the change: Balance & removing nonsense out of the game. 

- The Reborn Bot change, yes as said above its a loss of information however it achieves the goal to describe things more accurately


Transparency 
Your opinion/Post is instantly invalid when you question my transparency. I have a long history of wanting more transparency & logging every change. So the mere suggestion I would now hide changes or sneak buff/nerf things for my own benefit are just absurd. Sorry but they are. 


Feedback
Total nonsense that feedback gets ignored, 90% of spawn changes are directly based on feedback from players. I don't get where you get the ideas that I would ignore feedback. There is a big difference in trying to pressure someone into reverting changes that you don't agree with & saying they totally ignore feedback. 

https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/97467-explanations-regarding-the-ms-rarity-helditem-changes/
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/101011-hoenn-surf-routes-votedecided/
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/103042-questionnaire-please-fill-this-out-if-you-are-interested-in-spawns/
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/101387-kanto-safari-ev-zones-def-spot-changes-decided/
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/110032-halloween-spawn-wishlist-please-vote/
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/120870-what-levelrange-should-pinkan-island-have/
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/118998-headbutt-rework-suggestions-feedback-requests/
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/119812-dig-spot-rework-suggestions-feedback-requests/
&
The overall feedback thread that caused majority of the spawn changes:
https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/97256-pokémon-spawn-related-suggestions-feedback-requests/


So overall, while you might be angry, it really doesn't help you at all if you throw around nonsense. The Reborn change helps me massively to create and design spawns the way I see fit without having to worry how they look on paper. 

Yes, its a bit harder to distinguish the lower tiers, especially the old tier 1's with tier 2 or 3 however that is exactly what gives me the freedom to create better spawns. 

Some changes might make no sense to players but they do make sense & are better for the game. If you trust me or not, I really don't care, as I got no intention to hurt the game. 

My work as GM and as Spawn Editor are totally irrelevant, my standing as staff is also totally irrelevant here. Spawn Editor remains a non staff role & always has, like Dmods but without rewards or anything really for it. All I get from it is a headache lol. 

I will lock this post since I got what I needed (the feedback related to the changes), if you got specific changes that you would like to see there is a feedback thread for that. Keep it spawns in there. 

We are not going to revert the Reborn change for now, we might make adjustments down the line. 

Peace ~

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