unresolved Why h.a landorus banned yet?

[Sakasi]

Now pro released mega evolution. So i think h.a landorus can be used for sp attacker at pvp. Nowadays i saw pvp system,  and i thought,  h.a landorus is so weak hp ice high spd mega pokemon, ice type poke, skamory and spdef tank pokemons. In addition landorus is narrow skill range. So it suitable for pvp now.  Plz lift the ban

Edited August 31, 2021 by sakasi

[Wuxiaworld]

Just because it's weak to ice doesn't give it options to come to ou play mate ,

Even in showdown it was ubers in gen 6 or 7 

It's broken in current meta , 

It's like nidoking 

But with better bulk and speed 

[Shinohara]

5 hours ago, sakasi said:

Now pro released mega evolution. So i think h.a landorus can be used for sp attacker at pvp. Nowadays i saw pvp system,  and i thought,  h.a landorus is so weak hp ice high spd mega pokemon, ice type poke, skamory and spdef tank pokemons. In addition landorus is narrow skill range. So it suitable for pvp now.  Plz lift the ban

 

Hi there @sakasi

 

I have personally informed our PVP Council Leader that will provide you an answer as soon as possible, please be patient until there.

 

Kind regards, 

- Keita/Shinohara

[Jorogumo]

5 hours ago, sakasi said:

Now pro released mega evolution. So i think h.a landorus can be used for sp attacker at pvp. Nowadays i saw pvp system,  and i thought,  h.a landorus is so weak hp ice high spd mega pokemon, ice type poke, skamory and spdef tank pokemons. In addition landorus is narrow skill range. So it suitable for pvp now.  Plz lift the ban

 

Hello there!

 

For the sake of this argumentation, I am going to focus on why I believe that Landorus-I should remain banned. This does not mean that there are no valid counterarguments; it just means that I am, for the most part, not going to bring those up.

 

101 Speed is, indeed, unimpressive in our metagame. However, while Landorus-I is slower than several Mega Evolutions, it also pairs up super well with many of them. In fact, because it is able to choose what to beat (i.e., Calm Mind helping against more defensive teams, Rock Polish assisting it against offensive ones, and a 4th coverage move being useful in general or specifically against balance), Landorus-I can be used alongside Megas that are good against different teams and playstyles, which widens the range of its potential teammates. Therefore, it is far from being weaker just because faster Megas now exist. If anything, it has even more teammates to choose from.

 

Landorus-I is also not easy to KO or revenge kill reliably. Since switching into it is a daunting task, you will often be trying to revenge kill it after it has already KO'd something (and you may or may not succeed in doing so). Sheer Force means that it can use Life Orb to boost its strength further without taking recoil damage, which keeps it relatively healthy throughout the match. The sole entry hazard that affects it is Stealth Rock; it is immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web. It has two useful immunities and a good typing for what it does. It does not need many resistances, since it should not be taking unnecessary hits, but it only has two weaknesses, which means that only a small portion of the metagame is effective at forcing it out. I mentioned both of these moves before, but they are relevant here as well: Calm Mind makes it a nightmare against defensive teams and Rock Polish pretty much forces offensive teams to revenge kill it with Ice Shard or throw a Pokémon that is able to survive one of its hits once (like Keldeo or Latios) at it.

 

Landorus-I's frailty is also exaggerated. While it is true that it will rarely be at full health (as is the case with most offensive Pokémon throughout the course of a match), it is still able to survive some relatively strong and, sometimes, even super effective hits. Rotom-W's Hydro Pump only has a chance to KO it from full, for example. Soul Dew Latios is not guaranteed to KO it with Draco Meteor. Moreover, Landorus-I is sturdier on the physical side. I am not pretending that it is tanky, but it is bulkier than many offensively-oriented Pokémon. It always survives a +2 Sucker Punch from Bisharp without Life Orb or Black Glasses. Choice Band Aqua Jet from Azumarill never OHKOs it. Aside from being difficult to KO, it also hits really hard and can OHKO many slower offensive Pokémon that would otherwise KO it.

 

Assuming no Rock Slide (which certainly is niche but viable), Landorus-I has very limited guaranteed switch-ins and many of those are not too viable (Cresselia, specially defensive Mandibuzz, specially defensive Moltres, specially defensive Blissey, specially defensive Mantine, specially defensive Slowking, regular Gyarados...) and/or are unable to check it after Stealth Rock (like specially defensive Zapdos). Others may seem like appealing options at first (like Assault Vest Tornadus-T, Chansey or Lati@s), but they are either heavily crippled by a certain move (Knock Off in the case of Eviolite Chansey and Assault Vest Tornadus-T), thus rendered useless against Landorus-I and its teammates henceforth, or they are not solid, long-term answers because they lack reliable recovery, cannot outheal the damage or can lose if/when Landorus-I clicks the right move once. Mega Latias is the only answer that is both solid and viable. If we take into account all of Landorus-I's viable moves, it only really has 2 counters (not checks): Cresselia and Mega Latias. They both have recovery, but the former is barely viable, especially when used outside of Trick Room, and the latter is a good Pokémon but takes up the Mega slot. Some Pokémon, such as Rotom-W, can switch into some of Landorus-I's moves, but those must be at high health the entire time to stay out of range of  Landorus-I's other moves. You also should not always have to rely on prediction and outplay potential in order to defeat a Pokémon. Those criteria do matter in practice, but only having 2 infallible answers is still a concern.

 

If you forego Cresselia and/or Mega Latias, you will then have to dedicate more than one slot to checking Landorus-I, since none of the other answers would suffice alone. Some common Pokémon, like Rotom-W, Gliscor, and even Tornadus-T, can function together to try to fend off most Landorus-I sets, but those still rely on the right prediction and the right Landorus-I set (since HP Ice sets with Focus Blast or Sludge Wave and Rock Slide or even Knock Off could, for example, beat all three of the aforementioned Pokémon). Latios and Latias are more uncommon, despite being quite viable, but they are also not the most reliable answers since they struggle against common Landorus-I cores. An example of this would be Pursuit support from Pokémon like Tyranitar or Weavile, both of which excel against many of the more reliable Landorus-I checks and are able to threaten to remove them permanently from the match or dent them enough to prevent them from performing their roles effectively. This, in itself, is quite centralizing since you not only have a hard time against Landorus-I in 1-on-1 scenarios, but you also cannot properly prepare for all the Landorus-I cores that would be common. So, while Landorus-I might struggle against viable cores consisting of the likes of Rotom-W, Gliscor, Assault Vest Tornadus-T, and Latios, it does not have to beat an entire team singlehandedly and often requires one or two offensive partners to take care of all its issues.

 

I cannot emphasize the previous point enough: Landorus-I doesn't have to be able to beat down a whole team on its own in order to be broken. It can pave the way for another teammate (like one of the many Mega Evolutions that work well with it) by weakening the opposition. Also, since Landorus-I's set is highly customizable, only truly mandating Earth Power (Focus Blast being arguable), it can choose moves that benefit the overall team, that is, either ones that help against specific targets, which it can easily lure in then surprise with unexpected coverage, or others that are useful for its teammates, like Stealth Rock, Knock Off, U-turn, etc.

 

We already have some match-up issues in our current metagame and I believe that Landorus-I would exacerbate them further. If you choose to prepare for it as well as you should, you will lessen your match-up against other, perhaps more common, teams. If you do not account for it at all, you are then gambling with matchups and hoping that you will not encounter one, which is not very healthy, either. In fact, low Landorus-I usage might be problematic, because that would mean that all the already viable offensive threats would still see similar usage to now while simply adding an extra threat to the metagame. I am going to use Aegislash as a counterexample, but I am not saying to unban it at all (actually, quite the contrary). Aegislash would probably see far more usage than something like Landorus-I. What this means in practice is that some of the current threats, like Mega Medicham or Mega Metagross, will have to adapt or, if unable to, decrease in viability. Landorus-I would be an additional threat to handle alongside almost all the others, even though a few wallbreakers, like Nidoking, would understandably decline in usage and viability due to its presence. 

 

In the current metagame, where match-up issues very much exist, I don't think that unbanning Landorus-I would be a smart move, as it would warp teambuilding around it and make those problems even worse.

[Luckynum1]

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