Rework the system to achieve top in dungeons

[Darkjav]

It seems unfair to me that with 5 people, who know the secrets of how to get the maximum scores, in both dungeons, and with just 1 run per month, they carry an entire guild, to take possession the shadow spawn every month.

[Dorade]

I agree. What don't we use a rating system ? People earns rating in the dungeon, the same way current score is computed and only their best score is counted. Then it sums up with all the other guild members.

That way, if a guild has 50 active members and they all do the dungeon, even if they don't perform super optimized dungeon runs, they can actually tie with other guilds where a few members have the secret for an optimized run.

Also, if a player joins a guild during the season, his rating will only count at the start of a new seaon (i.e the next month).

It seems more fair that way.

[Exzxay]

On 9/13/2023 at 12:19 AM, Darkjav said:

It seems unfair to me that with 5 people, who know the secrets of how to get the maximum scores, in both dungeons, and with just 1 run per month, they carry an entire guild, to take possession the shadow spawn every month.

+1
I think the requirements to enter the shadow spawns should be higher, since you dont even have to do a good run to enter the area if your guild carried a good score. I would suggest to reduce their hunting time based on their score compared to the top score of the guild. Also I would like to see some way to enter the shadow spawns without being in a top guild. For example with using mysterious tickets or a "shadow pass" (like safari pass), that you can get from quest or as reward from bosses or victini dungeon(because victini dungeon rewards are really bad). That would eliminate the fact that only a few people have access to it.

 

19 hours ago, Dorade said:

I agree. What don't we use a rating system ? People earns rating in the dungeon, the same way current score is computed and only their best score is counted. Then it sums up with all the other guild members.

That way, if a guild has 50 active members and they all do the dungeon, even if they don't perform super optimized dungeon runs, they can actually tie with other guilds where a few members have the secret for an optimized run.

Also, if a player joins a guild during the season, his rating will only count at the start of a new seaon (i.e the next month).

It seems more fair that way.

-1

I dont think summing up the scores would be a good idea. If that would be the system for the raking that would mean that only the number of people is relevant for the ranking. A score of 4750 in forlorn dungeon is decent. If you have that score you most likely did the dungeon a couple of times and know how it works. A score of 5000 or more requires "the secret". The secret is the strategy the guild worked on for months to finds the right mons with the right moves and know how every detail of the dungeon works. You also have to learn how the dungeon works yourself, even if you have access to"the secret". There is a massive skill gap between a 4750 score and a 5000 score, but you only get 250 points more with the secret. So there is no point in finding "the secret" if the only relevant factor is active guild size. A guild with 20 top dungeon player and an average score of 5000 would be crushed by a guild with 22 active dungeon players, who only does the dungeon for reroll shards and have an average score of 4750. This would be even more unfair than the group of 5 that carry an entire guild, since skill, knowledge and effort is irrelevant.

 

The access to the shadow area should include more ways to enter, but it shouldnt punish players who take the time and create advanced strategies. It should punish the players who get a bad score but still can enter the shadow spawns with the same time as the players who made the top score. In my opinion it should be determined by effort and skill who can enter the shadow spawns. So if you dont do much you shouldnt get much. If the effort is connected with the dungeon score or with other things like wq for mysterious ticket is in my opinion not relevant. Thats why i think that a player, who is interessted in the shadow forms and would put some effort in there, should have better opportunities than someone else, who is just in a guild and does nothing. 

[Dorade]

4 hours ago, Exzxay said:

So there is no point in finding "the secret" if the only relevant factor is active guild size. A guild with 20 top dungeon player and an average score of 5000 would be crushed by a guild with 22 active dungeon players, who only does the dungeon for reroll shards and have an average score of 4750. This would be even more unfair than the group of 5 that carry an entire guild, since skill, knowledge and effort is irrelevant.

Do you think the purpose of the dungeon is only to have a few players "knowing" the secret ? I think it is really unhealthy.

How can you say skill, knowledge and effort is irrelevant ?

Once a few players knows "the secret" then it's only a matter of effort. And for a guild with "no skills, no knowledge", the efforts is even more important, because you've to re-unite a party of players, willing to do pve, etc...

Nevertheless you have a point, a guild with 40 members should have the same possibilities to access the shadow area than a guild with 100 members.

But ... a guild with only 5 members knowing the secret and crushing the rest of the guilds is also super unfair.
 

4 hours ago, Exzxay said:

The access to the shadow area should include more ways to enter, but it shouldnt punish players who take the time and create advanced strategies. It should punish the players who get a bad score but still can enter the shadow spawns with the same time as the players who made the top score. In my opinion it should be determined by effort and skill who can enter the shadow spawns. So if you dont do much you shouldnt get much. If the effort is connected with the dungeon score or with other things like wq for mysterious ticket is in my opinion not relevant. Thats why i think that a player, who is interessted in the shadow forms and would put some effort in there, should have better opportunities than someone else, who is just in a guild and does nothing. 

I agree with your point.

 

What about a new suggestion :

 

Conditions to get access to the shadow area :

- Condition 1 : for a guild to unlock access to the shadow area, they need to have a % of players having completed (beaten the boss room) the dungeon at least once during the season. Without this condition, even if one member has got the best score ever in dungeon, he cannot enter the area.

- Condition 2 : for a guild member to have access to the shadow area you need to have completed the dungeon at least 3 times during the season even if your guild has completed the required %.

 

Reason to optimize your score in the dungeon :

- Guilds are ranked on dungeon ladder with current system but this ranking is not the one granting the access to the shadow area. You have to meet conditions 1 & 2.

- top 3 guilds members - up to 3 hours per day + for 300k you can buy from a npc, once per season, a non tradeable ticket to get access to the shadow area for 3h. The count-down starts as soon as the ticket is bought. (#Moneysink, #Walrossmustloveit)

- top 10 guilds members - up to 2 hours per day

- any guild that unlocked access to shadow area (whatever its ranking) - 1 hour per day

 

I think that way, both efforts and skills are rewarded.

If you put a lot of efforts without being part of the handful of players knowing the secret you can access

If you spent a lot of time to discover the dungeon secrets you get the highest reward

The most active guilds are rewarded whatever their amount of members

The player base having interests in doing the dungeon will be significantly larger but the required % to get access can be tuned season after season.

 

 

 

[Exzxay]

1 hour ago, Dorade said:

Do you think the purpose of the dungeon is only to have a few players "knowing" the secret ? I think it is really unhealthy.

How can you say skill, knowledge and effort is irrelevant ?

I also dont think that only a few people who know the secret should carry entire guilds. But with the current score calculation you can have a group 40 people or even 100, who dont put effort in their run can easily crush any smaller guild. Even if the guild with the secret only has 5 members it still means that they are better than every other member of the 100 people guild. If a group of 100 cant find the secret  but a group of 5 its obviously a skill issue.

 

1 hour ago, Dorade said:

Once a few players knows "the secret" then it's only a matter of effort. And for a guild with "no skills, no knowledge", the efforts is even more important, because you've to re-unite a party of players, willing to do pve, etc...

Thats the reason why the secret stays a secret. Even in our own guild we dont share our strategies, since once these informations are public, you have to do perfect runs wich also include rng, so making the top scores with the competition would be very frustrating. Thats why the secret obviously needs to stay a secret unless you want to ruin your own scores. Tbh that would be a worst case scenario, because i think finding the secret and getting the reward was one of the most motivating things i had in pro. So I think that the secret should stay a secret and those who are motivated should create their own strategies.

 

1 hour ago, Dorade said:

Conditions to get access to the shadow area :

- Condition 1 : for a guild to unlock access to the shadow area, they need to have a % of players having completed (beaten the boss room) the dungeon at least once during the season. Without this condition, even if one member has got the best score ever in dungeon, he cannot enter the area.

- Condition 2 : for a guild member to have access to the shadow area you need to have completed the dungeon at least 3 times during the season even if your guild has completed the required %.

About condition 1: dont think that is a really good condition. In my guild are many people who are currently not active, but they were active in the past and might come back its a bit rude to kick them. It would lead in our guild that we create a sub guild where only active members are. As long as you are not in a pvp guild you can easily do that and dodge the first condition.

About condition 2: I like this kind of codition. The people who are doing regular runs for shards should be rewarded but ot those who are just there one time for dungeon. might even increase it to 10.

 

1 hour ago, Dorade said:

Reason to optimize your score in the dungeon :

- Guilds are ranked on dungeon ladder with current system but this ranking is not the one granting the access to the shadow area. You have to meet conditions 1 & 2.

- top 3 guilds members - up to 3 hours per day + for 300k you can buy from a npc, once per season, a non tradeable ticket to get access to the shadow area for 3h. The count-down starts as soon as the ticket is bought. (#Moneysink, #Walrossmustloveit)

- top 10 guilds members - up to 2 hours per day

- any guild that unlocked access to shadow area (whatever its ranking) - 1 hour per day

If i understood correctly your guild still needs to be in the top 3 to get potetial access for the shadow area. This would still not solve the secret problem, but the best guild members would have more time than others, which is a good idea in theory, bu there are some problems. 

1. Your position on the scoreboard for each dungeon is important. Currently you get 30 min hunting time if you get place 1 in each of the dungeons, 20 min if secound place and 10 min if third place + you get on both spawns extra 10-30 min based on your total score. So the hunting time should depend on the placement on the scoreboard, which means, that fixed times like 3h for the top members should also depend on the placement. but that is just the current implementation. A system where all top 3 guilds get the same reward is also fine, but in that case I would reduce the time you suggested.

2. In our guild the same people who are doing Forlorn dungeonn are the same who are doing victini dungeon, so there are more than 3 people with the highest points. Also you can think of  giving each member the hunting time based on their placement on each dungeon. So if someone was part of the top score of the guild in forlorn dungeon but dont want to do the victini dungeon(because its less fun and has no good rewards), the player has a far lower hunting time than someone, who just made a medium run in both dungeons. 

 

3. If you mean with this suggestion that the top 3 placement of the guilds are not important anymore the I have to give a huge -1. This would make it very easily to get the shadow areas, since you just have to gather 4 other people. Each of them spends 80k and you create a new sub guild. Then you do 3 runs, which dont even have to be good and you get 3h for your sub guild. Every guild would have easy access to the area, which is not intended by staff obviously.

4. I like the idea with extra 3h huntig time, but I would make it tradeable, so pve players who focus on dungeon can make money with their skill like top pvp players can get money with prestige mounts.

 

I have no problem with using the suggested system for the top 3 guilds, but if you are using that system on every guild it would break the concept of the shadow area. the shadow area is a reward for those who are good at pve and not to some random players who entered dungeon 3 times a month. The only solution would be a guild size minimum(like you need at least 50 members). That would kill smaller guilds and guilds that are using another laguage than english, since these communities are small compared to big guilds. But if that concept would be implemented there should also be a pve ladder for all players, so that having a really good score not only in your guild, but also on the server should give you a bonus, like top pvp players get a bonus based on their rating. 

The solution should not destroy the concept of the shadow area being limited to good pve players/guilds, should not kill entire guilds since their existence is inferior to big guilds and should not benefit people who have are not really interessted in dungeon. As long as a solution does not fullfil all of these conditions it wont be any better than the system we currently have.

[Jqs]

On 9/12/2023 at 6:19 PM, Darkjav said:

It seems unfair to me that with 5 people, who know the secrets of how to get the maximum scores, in both dungeons, and with just 1 run per month, they carry an entire guild, to take possession the shadow spawn every month.

It seems unfair to me that the same 3 guilds, who know the secrets on PvP and how to maximize RT every month take possession of Guild Island every month.
See how The logic you have here is flawed?

It took months of trial and error for members of our guild to grind for these "secrets" of dungeon you speak of to achieve top score. It does not take a full guild of 100 members to figure these things out. Because people dont now want to put in the effort to figuring things out(which there are tons of resources for finding out information about these dungeons btw) doesnt mean we should be penalized and not reap the rewards for our months of effort.

Now as a solution i think something could be implemented similar to the mysterious ticket with Guild Island, where you as a guild submit 20 tickets(or however many amount is fair) and you could access the Hunting Grounds that season.

Looking forward to your response.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Jqs

[Dorade]

17 minutes ago, Exzxay said:

About condition 1: dont think that is a really good condition. In my guild are many people who are currently not active, but they were active in the past and might come back its a bit rude to kick them. It would lead in our guild that we create a sub guild where only active members are. As long as you are not in a pvp guild you can easily do that and dodge the first condition.

This is already the case for the big pvp guilds... i don't see any sub-guilds. And people that were inactive can just ask to join back once they are active again.

 

19 minutes ago, Exzxay said:

If i understood correctly your guild still needs to be in the top 3 to get potetial access for the shadow area. This would still not solve the secret problem, but the best guild members would have more time than others, which is a good idea in theory, bu there are some problems.

No. The only conditions to get access are the one i mentionned before. The ranking on dungeon ladder is there to give progressive rewards so that people that put a lot of efforts to get the best ranking can be rewarded decently.

 

22 minutes ago, Exzxay said:

 Currently you get 30 min hunting time if you get place 1 in each of the dungeons, 20 min if secound place and 10 min if third place + you get on both spawns extra 10-30 min based on your total score. So the hunting time should depend on the placement on the scoreboard, which means, that fixed times like 3h for the top members should also depend on the placement.

I didn't know about the 30/20/10min. Maybe 3hours/2hours/1hour is too much then.

Well the thing is, here we are trying to give access to the shadow area to more people but if top 1 gets 30min... what's left for guilds under rank 3 ? Nothing. Would it be so terrible to give 30min to all top 3 guilds then 20min for like top 5 and 10min for top 10 ? The requirement 1 & 2 are not so easy to get.

25 minutes ago, Exzxay said:

3. If you mean with this suggestion that the top 3 placement of the guilds are not important anymore the I have to give a huge -1. This would make it very easily to get the shadow areas, since you just have to gather 4 other people. Each of them spends 80k and you create a new sub guild. Then you do 3 runs, which dont even have to be good and you get 3h for your sub guild. Every guild would have easy access to the area, which is not intended by staff obviously.

If people do that it will mean that it will be harder than ever to be top 3 so I think in fact it will lead to less people being able to access the area. If we say only top 10 can access for a 10min hunt time (to fit best what we already have now) that means maximum 10 guilds can access. So basically 50 persons if people makes guild of 5 persons. That way less than today with current system. People have no interests in doing that.

32 minutes ago, Exzxay said:

But if that concept would be implemented there should also be a pve ladder for all players, so that having a really good score not only in your guild, but also on the server should give you a bonus, like top pvp players get a bonus based on their rating.

I disagree. The concept of the dungeon is to have a collaborative feature where guilds can act together toward a common goal. If you seek personal glory there is pvp. That is why my proposal is in favor of rewarding healthy guild with good amount of active people.

[Dorade]

12 minutes ago, Jqs said:

It seems unfair to me that the same 3 guilds, who know the secrets on PvP and how to maximize RT every month take possession of Guild Island every month.
See how The logic you have here is flawed?

How is it flawed lol ?

 

The difference is that the top 3 pvp guilds are on top 3 for a reason. They have the most active members. Every members get access to guild island but to some extent every member participated to that achievement. What is unfair ?

It's way more fair than a guild of 5 pve experts topping the dungeon ladder, giving access to 95 others dudes that did nothing.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Jqs said:

It took months of trial and error for members of our guild to grind for these "secrets" of dungeon you speak of to achieve top score. It does not take a full guild of 100 members to figure these things out. Because people dont now want to put in the effort to figuring things out(which there are tons of resources for finding out information about these dungeons btw) doesnt mean we should be penalized and not reap the rewards for our months of effort.

So what ? With my suggestion you are still getting the most interesting reward. There is no reason you lose your top 3. How are you penalized exactly ?

[Jqs]

17 minutes ago, Dorade said:

How is it flawed lol ?

 

The difference is that the top 3 pvp guilds are on top 3 for a reason. They have the most active members. Every members get access to guild island but to some extent every member participated to that achievement. What is unfair ?

It's way more fair than a guild of 5 pve experts topping the dungeon ladder, giving access to 95 others dudes that did nothing.

 

You only get access to the Hunting grounds if you complete a run with a necessary minimum score. We may get top3 every month but the whole guild of 100 members does not get access. There is only about 10-15 of us who run monthly to achieve the reward of hunting grounds access. Your information there is incorrect.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Jqs

[Dorade]

13 minutes ago, Jqs said:

You only get access to the Hunting grounds if you complete a run with a necessary minimum score. We may get top3 every month but the whole guild of 100 members does not get access. There is only about 10-15 of us who run monthly to achieve the score. Your information there is incorrect.

I wasn't saying it was actually the case. I just took your comment and extrapolated it to the pve system to show you how much it was not really unfair on the pvp side of things.

 

So you guys think the system is good as it is ? You wouldn't change anything ?