State of the Metagame: Kyurem

[Bountyhunter91]

Don’t ban kyurem 

[Diogoyeti]

Kyurem needs ban, here's why:

1-beats stall.
2-makes stall players cry.
3-only weak to 5 typings.

Thank you.

 

[Tin2207]

Hi everyone, there are a few good reasons for not banning Kyurem in PvP:

Ability to counter a wide range of types: Kyurem has a wide range of moves, with the ability to learn Dragon-type, Ice-type, and even moves like "Focus Blast". However, its power is still limited by factors like speed and type weaknesses, such as Steel-type against Ice or Fighting-type (against Ice).
Not too strong compared to other metas: Kyurem is not a "dominant" Pokémon compared to other names like Azumarill, Lopuny, etc. These Pokémon are often stronger in PvP thanks to high defense or flexible moves. Kyurem can still be countered by many popular Pokémon in the meta.
Strategy and diversity: Banning Kyurem can limit the diversity of PvP strategies. Because it is not always the optimal choice, players need to consider factors such as speed, attack, defense, and move set. Allowing Kyurem to exist creates opportunities for creative strategies and increases the variety in PvP.
Easily countered: Kyurem is powerful, but there are Pokémon that can counter it very easily such as Metagross, Mawile, Scizor. This proves that it is not too "overpowered" to need to be banned.
So Kyurem is not strong enough to make it a fearsome opponent in PvP. Banning it could take away an interesting strategic option that players could use.

[Nxtaryan]

On 2/3/2025 at 2:52 AM, Jorogumo said:

As part of our continuing commitment to monitoring developments in the metagame, the PvP Coordinators have noticed that Kyurem is quite possibly a presence that is overcentralizing, difficult to prepare for, and perhaps too strong for our current available answers. This belief is reflected in our recent Viability Rankings update, where Kyurem is now in S-tier.

 

We highly encourage you to participate in this discussion and offer opposing viewpoints, as we recognize that any discussion within a small group of relatively similar people is liable to produce the same ideas, regardless of their competence. We are especially interested in hearing your thoughts on Kyurem's role in the current metagame. Have you had difficulty handling it with your current team? Has it invalidated any builds you wanted to try? Or, on the other hand, are you having success utilizing it?

 

While Kyurem has several viable sets, including Choice Specs and Choice Scarf, we believe it is at its most dangerous when running Substitute, Roost, and Freeze-Dry. On Gold server, players tend to prefer the fourth move Earth Power, while on Silver, players also favor Toxic. This set is able to safely create Substitutes on a vast majority of the viable defensive Pokémon in the PRO metagame, especially balance staples such as Tangrowth and Rotom-Wash. Its titanic base HP stat permits it to easily reach 405 maximum HP, thereby creating 101 HP Substitutes which Seismic Toss Chansey cannot break. Ferrothorn, despite a nominal type advantage, is simply run out of Gyro Ball due to Pressure, while even something like Eviolite Bisharp is faced with the possibility of a straight 2HKO from Earth Power as well as both Substitute and Roost, denying Sucker Punch. Against offensive teams, the combination of Freeze-Dry, Earth Power, and Kyurem's natural bulk forces switches to no end, which it can easily set Substitute on, guaranteeing that it claims a kill shortly thereafter.

 

However, Kyurem's weakness to Stealth Rock and the relative speed of the metagame do somewhat hold it back. Mega Lopunny teams tend to play at a pace that does not often let Kyurem enter the field, while Mega Scizor is one of very few immediately safe defensive answers (though, in an extended interaction, it can certainly eventually get frozen or worn down by hazards). Mega Metagross immediately threatens Kyurem with its faster speed and massive power but simply cannot come in on Kyurem using Substitute more than once. Slowking, which is rapidly gaining popularity, is both a good teammate for Kyurem and a form of counterplay. With Future Sight, it can ensure that a teammate safely enters the field to face a Kyurem without a Substitute while barely dodging the 2HKO from Freeze-Dry. Ultimately, Kyurem is sometimes manageable in battle, even when it poses extreme strain on the teambuilder.

 

We will take into account all feedback we receive before the end of the season, when we intend to make a final decision. Well-constructed and defended reasonings will naturally be given more weight, but we do care even if your opinion is simply that you like the Pokémon. At this time, there are no other Pokémon or combinations that are immediately on our radar, but we will keep you updated as soon as possible if that changes.

I believe Kyurem, when running moves like Substitute, Roost, Freeze-Dry, and Earth Power, should be banned, as it can be extremely frustrating to face. This set allows Kyurem to continuously set up Substitutes, heal with Roost, and deal massive damage with Freeze-Dry and Earth Power, making it hard to counter. It can quickly become overbearing and difficult to handle, which can negatively impact the metagame.
 

Edited yesterday at 03:30 PM by Nxtaryan

[Tgbnamish]

I am not a kyurem fan but banning kyurem will be unwanted.Its not like shell smash mega Blastoise who literally had only 1 or 2 counters in game.Kyurem can be easily countered by clefable,conkelldur,scizor and many other fast pokemons.I know some may say it is stall breaker but who tf uses stall after nerf.

[Vangogsan]

33 minutes ago, Tgbnamish said:

I am not a kyurem fan but banning kyurem will be unwanted.Its not like shell smash mega Blastoise who literally had only 1 or 2 counters in game.Kyurem can be easily countered by clefable,conkelldur,scizor and many other fast pokemons.I know some may say it is stall breaker but who tf uses stall after nerf.

Once he went under subs clefable and conk cant do [heck], even without subs he can take out conk cuz he lack of spdeff

[Tgbnamish]

21 minutes ago, Vangogsan said:

Once he went under subs clefable and conk cant do [heck], even without subs he can take out conk cuz he lack of spdeff

Sheer force conkelldur can hit 2 mach punch which do massive damage on kyurem while you can casually do calm mind with clef then sweep slowly it may take upto 10 moonblast .

[Tgbnamish]

26 minutes ago, Vangogsan said:

Once he went under subs clefable and conk cant do [heck], even without subs he can take out conk cuz he lack of spdeff

 

[Vangogsan]

47 minutes ago, Tgbnamish said:

Sheer force conkelldur can hit 2 mach punch which do massive damage on kyurem while you can casually do calm mind with clef then sweep slowly it may take upto 10 moonblast .

First, who use sheer force conk, second who will let you to do mach punch 2 time's. People once went under subs will do freezy dry and kill or lower it, so your first mach punch will be to remove subs, second to do some dmg if he is not dead from the first one 

 

Same applies for calm mind clefable, every player will switch to something that can handle it. Imo kyurem can stay but only if is without sub. 

[Jorogumo]

Not to turn this into a semantics course, but let's not forget the difference between a check and a counter.

 

A Kyurem counter would be able to switch into it manually and still defeat it, even behind its Substitute. A Pokémon like Slowking would not qualify, because it would come in to Future Sight the Sub then switch to another Pokémon that can handle Kyurem after Future Sight breaks the Sub. This makes Slowking a Kyurem check.

 

The list of actual Kyurem counters is extremely limited. There are more offensive and defensive checks, but they would either need to be given a free switch into it or require that no Substitute be up on the other side of the field.

 

Also, another thing worth noting is that, while a Pokémon like Bronzong counters Kyurem, its limited viability means that it would not be worth running in most cases, whereas Clefable and Mega Scizor are both reliable and viable.

 

Encore Alolan Ninetales is also able to switch into Kyurem and lock it into a move, but its usage is exclusive to Veil teams.

 

Bulky Volcarona is a good switch-in as well and, like Mega Gardevoir (which saw some usage on Silver server), can hit Kyurem behind its Substitute. However, Volcarona is weak to Stealth Rock, making it a less reliable answer than Clefable and Mega Scizor.

 

Also, for those of you who enjoy looking at statistics, here are the Kyurem numbers for Silver server and for Gold server that were shared in the official PRO Discord by Wally. While statistics are indicative, they still show that Kyurem excels with certain teammates that can handle some of its weaknesses.

 

I would also encourage each of you, regardless of your opinion on Kyurem and whether you think it is broken or not, to avoid looking at match-ups in a vacuum. Kyurem is not isolated, it is paired up with Pokémon that can help it to handle its checks. Just like you, the Kyurem user can also switch out and not be locked behind Substitute. There are many variables to consider.