Unban mega Kang + power up punch/seismic toss from pvp

[Poppachav]

ump

[Jorogumo]

I agree with you that the double complex ban should be revisited, but not with a simplification that would not resolve the issue. Mega Kangaskhan sees virtually no usage and is not particularly viable at the moment, which means that the effort of going through a double complex ban to preserve Kangaskhanite is just not worth it. I would favor the full-on ban of Kangaskhanite.

 

I think you are underselling the combination of Power-Up Punch and Parental Bond. Power-Up Punch in conjunction with a Scrappy Ability prior to the Mega Evolution of Kangaskhan guarantees a +1 Atk boost against any of the usual switch-ins, including the Ghost types that you mentioned, and a +2 Atk boost if Kangaskhan is Mega Evolved. Even without Seismic Toss, that kind of power is sufficient to drop or at least heavily dent some of the sturdiest premier walls in the metagame:

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 378-445 (98.4 - 115.8%) -- 95.7% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Skarmory: 264-312 (79.2 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Alomomola: 382-450 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 298-353 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Another issue with the above calculations is how many of the typical defensive Mega Kangaskhan switch-ins are slower and unable to KO it back in one hit, which means that they will likely fall.

 

As for the four examples that you mentioned, only one of them is usually foolproof: Mega Sableye. Aegislash and Annihilape certainly qualify as checks, but they can lose under specific circumstances or after minimal damage. Overall, the other Pokémon that you mentioned are all prone to Scrappy Power-Up Punch on the switch and do not fare particularly well against Mega Kangaskhan, which outspeeds them and can KO them after hazards or prior chip:

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Both: 58-70 (17.9 - 21.6%) -- possible 7HKO

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Both: 218-258 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 270-320 (102.6 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Annihilape: 47-56 (11.1 - 13.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Annihilape: 262-310 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Annihilape: 178-210 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Admittedly, while this may be niche, Earthquake is not a bad move to run on Mega Kangaskhan to ease prediction against many of the Pokémon you named, like Aegislash and Mega Mawile, as well as Heatran.

 

Body Slam, which you mentioned, is another serious option to consider, as it has a 51% chance to paralyze the opposing Pokémon in conjunction with Parental Bond. This introduces luck into the equation.

 

So, while the addition of some new Pokémon helps against Mega Kangaskhan, because it makes it more prediction-reliant and can give it a hard time to fit all the moves it would otherwise want to run, it does not mean that it will be a healthy addition to an already ailing metagame. Moreover, forcing an influx of dedicated Mega Kangashan checks when it is difficult enough as is to prepare for other match-ups would put an unnecessary strain on the teambuilder.

 

Another point in favor of Mega Kagaskhan that I am willing to concede is the abundance of Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, and Rough Skin users, all of which can give Mega Kangaskhan a rough time and limit its longevity throughout a match. It is also decidedly prone to hazards and status, but it enjoys being paired up with Wish or Healing Wish users that can revitalize it. In the worst-case scenario, Mega Kangaskhan will trade its life for its check – and going 1 for 1 in a bad situation is far from convincing proof that the Pokémon is otherwise healthy.

 

Most of the arguments presented so far focus on Mega Kangaskhan against defensive and/or slower teams, but its match-up against offense is anything but undesirable. It can run Fake Out and Sucker Punch, bypass Sturdy and Focus Sash, is defensively bulky enough to survive at least two neutral priority hits thanks to its 105/100/100 defenses, and does enough damage to KO several offensive Pokémon after minimal chip. What it lacks in Speed in comparison with Mega Lopunny, it makes up for in terms of power and bulk.

 

In short, while your Trick Room teams might be able to deal with Mega Kangaskhan – and its 5 teammates, which are often omitted from these discussions in a vacuum –, other archetypes would struggle considerably. I am not talking about a single playstyle suffering from the presence of Mega Kangaskhan; I am referring to many.

 

No point in entertaining the thought of unbanning both Seismic Toss and Power-Up Punch if either of the two could suffice to break the Pokémon.

 

Ultimately, while we can sit here and argue back and forth about whether it would be broken with just Power-Up Punch, why would we even take the risk of unleashing a stronger Mega Kangaskhan with no guarantee that it will be manageable? What would be its positive contribution to the metagame in its current state?

[Qwatte]

3 hours ago, Jorogumo said:

Ultimately, while we can sit here and argue back and forth about whether it would be broken with just Power-Up Punch, why would we even take the risk of unleashing a stronger Mega Kangaskhan with no guarantee that it will be manageable? What would be its positive contribution to the metagame in its current state?

 

Sir. Player base 70-80% said stall to strong. We need more wallbreakers. I understand what you write and i see Kanga so OP, but Flip,Wish Alom+Clef regen core samely to OP. If i join normal ranked match at gold server, every 2nd team is stall..

Edited April 15 by Qwatte

[Praveen00]

-1 

[Poppachav]

10 hours ago, Jorogumo said:

I agree with you that the double complex ban should be revisited, but not with a simplification that would not resolve the issue. Mega Kangaskhan sees virtually no usage and is not particularly viable at the moment, which means that the effort of going through a double complex ban to preserve Kangaskhanite is just not worth it. I would favor the full-on ban of Kangaskhanite.

 

I think you are underselling the combination of Power-Up Punch and Parental Bond. Power-Up Punch in conjunction with a Scrappy Ability prior to the Mega Evolution of Kangaskhan guarantees a +1 Atk boost against any of the usual switch-ins, including the Ghost types that you mentioned, and a +2 Atk boost if Kangaskhan is Mega Evolved. Even without Seismic Toss, that kind of power is sufficient to drop or at least heavily dent some of the sturdiest premier walls in the metagame:

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 378-445 (98.4 - 115.8%) -- 95.7% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Skarmory: 264-312 (79.2 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Alomomola: 382-450 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 298-353 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Another issue with the above calculations is how many of the typical defensive Mega Kangaskhan switch-ins are slower and unable to KO it back in one hit, which means that they will likely fall.

 

As for the four examples that you mentioned, only one of them is usually foolproof: Mega Sableye. Aegislash and Annihilape certainly qualify as checks, but they can lose under specific circumstances or after minimal damage. Overall, the other Pokémon that you mentioned are all prone to Scrappy Power-Up Punch on the switch and do not fare particularly well against Mega Kangaskhan, which outspeeds them and can KO them after hazards or prior chip:

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Both: 58-70 (17.9 - 21.6%) -- possible 7HKO

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Both: 218-258 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 270-320 (102.6 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Annihilape: 47-56 (11.1 - 13.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

+1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Annihilape: 262-310 (62.2 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Return vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Annihilape: 178-210 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Admittedly, while this may be niche, Earthquake is not a bad move to run on Mega Kangaskhan to ease prediction against many of the Pokémon you named, like Aegislash and Mega Mawile, as well as Heatran.

 

Body Slam, which you mentioned, is another serious option to consider, as it has a 51% chance to paralyze the opposing Pokémon in conjunction with Parental Bond. This introduces luck into the equation.

 

So, while the addition of some new Pokémon helps against Mega Kangaskhan, because it makes it more prediction-reliant and can give it a hard time to fit all the moves it would otherwise want to run, it does not mean that it will be a healthy addition to an already ailing metagame. Moreover, forcing an influx of dedicated Mega Kangashan checks when it is difficult enough as is to prepare for other match-ups would put an unnecessary strain on the teambuilder.

 

Another point in favor of Mega Kagaskhan that I am willing to concede is the abundance of Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, and Rough Skin users, all of which can give Mega Kangaskhan a rough time and limit its longevity throughout a match. It is also decidedly prone to hazards and status, but it enjoys being paired up with Wish or Healing Wish users that can revitalize it. In the worst-case scenario, Mega Kangaskhan will trade its life for its check – and going 1 for 1 in a bad situation is far from convincing proof that the Pokémon is otherwise healthy.

 

Most of the arguments presented so far focus on Mega Kangaskhan against defensive and/or slower teams, but its match-up against offense is anything but undesirable. It can run Fake Out and Sucker Punch, bypass Sturdy and Focus Sash, is defensively bulky enough to survive at least two neutral priority hits thanks to its 105/100/100 defenses, and does enough damage to KO several offensive Pokémon after minimal chip. What it lacks in Speed in comparison with Mega Lopunny, it makes up for in terms of power and bulk.

 

In short, while your Trick Room teams might be able to deal with Mega Kangaskhan – and its 5 teammates, which are often omitted from these discussions in a vacuum –, other archetypes would struggle considerably. I am not talking about a single playstyle suffering from the presence of Mega Kangaskhan; I am referring to many.

 

No point in entertaining the thought of unbanning both Seismic Toss and Power-Up Punch if either of the two could suffice to break the Pokémon.

 

Ultimately, while we can sit here and argue back and forth about whether it would be broken with just Power-Up Punch, why would we even take the risk of unleashing a stronger Mega Kangaskhan with no guarantee that it will be manageable? What would be its positive contribution to the metagame in its current state?

First off thank you for your excellent write up on this topic! I appreciate you taking time out of your day to discuss this topic I will do my best to address all of the topics you brought up.

 

Lets first start with the possible Movesets for Mega Kangaskhan as you brought up a few:

 

MUST - Fake Out

MUST- PuP

Choice of two: Sucker Punch, Body Slam, Fire/Ice/Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Return (Bold being ideal)

 

Of the bulky tanks you brought up earlier Clefable, Zapdos, Skarmory, Alomamola, and Slowbro you will not find effectiveness against any of them given rocky helmet and regen/healing moves if you do not get a set up PuP. In addition to that Skarmory/Ferrothorn have access to Body Press:

 

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 57-67 (17 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 204-240 (58.1 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 80-96 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO

80+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 170-202 (48.4 - 57.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

 

I admit that as the Mega Kangaskhan user you have the ability to PuP on some of these pokemon to continue the set-up, but in my opinion these pokemon fully tank Mega Kangaskhan with no PuP/Scrappy set up move.

 

We are in agreement on Mega Sableye so no need to talk more about that pokemon. Aegislash is a tough matchup as Sucker Punch and King Shield make in a toss up. But essentially if Kangaskhan is already Mega advantage Aegislash. Annihilape is the same sort of story, 1 on 1 Mega or not Annihilape will win this match up. Mawile is the worst of the 4, but in trick room its no contest, advantage Mawile.

 

I think your point on the addition of Mega Kangaskhan making PVP more prediction reliant was an excellent one. That said I look at that as a positive for the meta game rather than a negative. I think right now, the issue with PVP in the metagame is that you can bring out 1 pokemon that can sweep a full team of 6. All of the counters for Mega Kangaskhan are already in many players teams. All of the pokemon we named above, Landorous, Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Mega Medicham, Mach Punch users like Conk and Breloom, Unaware Clefable. In addition will-o-wisp and scald users have favorable match ups in a 1 on 1. To me, I don't think we are changing the meta in anyway by including PuP Mega Kangaskhan, given 90% of teams will have one of them checks for it.

 

Again great point regarding focus sash and sturdy and this is probably one of the reasons why I like Mega Kangaskhan the most. In addition to this, to get through substitute. Sub-Kyurem is impacted negatively by this inclusion which would definitely help the metagame.

 

As much as I want to make this about Trick Room, that was not the reason why I originally brought this topic up. I think without the addition of new pokemon the meta becomes stale and predictable. I think for many of the main abusers of the current meta, the addition of Mega Kangaskhan would help check them.

 

The more I thought about this, the more I think Seismic Toss should not be included albeit a totally different topic/moveset. So for the purposes of being concise, I think we should only review Power Up Punch + Mega Kangaskhan moving forward. 

 

 

Unrelated point but I brought this up to a few people earlier so figure I will post here as well. In many scenarios you will switch to Kangaskhan after a pokemon feints. You will Mega-Evo and get +2 from Power Up Punch. After that you would way to out speed faster poke is through Sucker Punch, meaning if you are playing H.O. the rest of the game is Sucker Punch +2 to go first. This is very similar to playing Mega Mawile in Trick Room after 1 Swords Dance, that said the damage output for 1 Swords Dance Sucker Punch on Mega Mawile is higher than that of Power Up Punch + Sucker Punch Mega Kangaskhan. My point of all of this is to say, in the most likely scenario, Mega Kangaskhan is less impactful than Mega Mawile.

 

Looking forward to your response!

[Jorogumo]

21 hours ago, Qwatte said:

 

Sir. Player base 70-80% said stall to strong. We need more wallbreakers. I understand what you write and i see Kanga so OP, but Flip,Wish Alom+Clef regen core samely to OP. If i join normal ranked match at gold server, every 2nd team is stall..

If you are referring to the latest PRO PvP Survey, 96 out of 195 respondents found Stall to be too strong, so the percentage is closer to 50%, but I acknowledge your point. However, there are possibly other factors at play to explain that kind of response; I will not get into them here to avoid derailing the topic of this thread.

 

I hope you can see that, even if we allowed Mega Kangaskhan, it would not punish Stall as much as other archetypes that were deemed adequately strong by the playerbase. As discussed here, Mega Sableye – the premier Mega on Stall teams – halts Mega Kangaskhan in its tracks and threatens to burn it. On top of that, Regenerator Alomomola coupled with Unaware Clefable would be able to keep passing Wishes while punishing Mega Kangaskhan with two rounds of Rocky Helmet every time that it would attack Alomomola.

 

Realistically, the addition of a Balance breaker like Mega Kangaskhan would primarily punish... well, Balance, a playstyle that is already not in a great spot due to pressure from both ends of the spectrum. Sure, Mega Kangaskhan can be used on Balance, but what are we trying to accomplish by unbanning it? It is not a Stall breaker.

Also, keep in mind that there is no shortage of Megas to use. Players usually ask for more additions – which the PvP Council has no control over – but rarely complain about not having enough Megas to choose from.

 

13 hours ago, Poppachav said:

First off thank you for your excellent write up on this topic! I appreciate you taking time out of your day to discuss this topic I will do my best to address all of the topics you brought up.

 

Lets first start with the possible Movesets for Mega Kangaskhan as you brought up a few:

 

MUST - Fake Out

MUST- PuP

Choice of two: Sucker Punch, Body Slam, Fire/Ice/Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Return (Bold being ideal)

 

Of the bulky tanks you brought up earlier Clefable, Zapdos, Skarmory, Alomamola, and Slowbro you will not find effectiveness against any of them given rocky helmet and regen/healing moves if you do not get a set up PuP. In addition to that Skarmory/Ferrothorn have access to Body Press:

 

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 57-67 (17 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 204-240 (58.1 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 80-96 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO

80+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 170-202 (48.4 - 57.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

 

I admit that as the Mega Kangaskhan user you have the ability to PuP on some of these pokemon to continue the set-up, but in my opinion these pokemon fully tank Mega Kangaskhan with no PuP/Scrappy set up move.

 

We are in agreement on Mega Sableye so no need to talk more about that pokemon. Aegislash is a tough matchup as Sucker Punch and King Shield make in a toss up. But essentially if Kangaskhan is already Mega advantage Aegislash. Annihilape is the same sort of story, 1 on 1 Mega or not Annihilape will win this match up. Mawile is the worst of the 4, but in trick room its no contest, advantage Mawile.

 

I think your point on the addition of Mega Kangaskhan making PVP more prediction reliant was an excellent one. That said I look at that as a positive for the meta game rather than a negative. I think right now, the issue with PVP in the metagame is that you can bring out 1 pokemon that can sweep a full team of 6. All of the counters for Mega Kangaskhan are already in many players teams. All of the pokemon we named above, Landorous, Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Mega Medicham, Mach Punch users like Conk and Breloom, Unaware Clefable. In addition will-o-wisp and scald users have favorable match ups in a 1 on 1. To me, I don't think we are changing the meta in anyway by including PuP Mega Kangaskhan, given 90% of teams will have one of them checks for it.

 

Again great point regarding focus sash and sturdy and this is probably one of the reasons why I like Mega Kangaskhan the most. In addition to this, to get through substitute. Sub-Kyurem is impacted negatively by this inclusion which would definitely help the metagame.

 

As much as I want to make this about Trick Room, that was not the reason why I originally brought this topic up. I think without the addition of new pokemon the meta becomes stale and predictable. I think for many of the main abusers of the current meta, the addition of Mega Kangaskhan would help check them.

 

The more I thought about this, the more I think Seismic Toss should not be included albeit a totally different topic/moveset. So for the purposes of being concise, I think we should only review Power Up Punch + Mega Kangaskhan moving forward. 

 

 

Unrelated point but I brought this up to a few people earlier so figure I will post here as well. In many scenarios you will switch to Kangaskhan after a pokemon feints. You will Mega-Evo and get +2 from Power Up Punch. After that you would way to out speed faster poke is through Sucker Punch, meaning if you are playing H.O. the rest of the game is Sucker Punch +2 to go first. This is very similar to playing Mega Mawile in Trick Room after 1 Swords Dance, that said the damage output for 1 Swords Dance Sucker Punch on Mega Mawile is higher than that of Power Up Punch + Sucker Punch Mega Kangaskhan. My point of all of this is to say, in the most likely scenario, Mega Kangaskhan is less impactful than Mega Mawile.

 

Looking forward to your response!

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and reply to it as well. I value these PvP discussions and interactions with other players even if, sometimes, no common ground can be found in the end.

 

I will also add that the PvP Council needs a clear majority before adopting a PvP change and, in this particular case, there is a consensus that allowing Mega Kangaskhan with Power-Up Punch is not a solution to some of the metagame's problems. I shared your proposal with other PvP Coordinators to spark a discussion because, even though I personally disagree with the suggestion and find that it would not have a positive impact on the metagame, your efforts deserve to be seen and taken seriously.

 

I would say that the moveset used by Mega Kangaskhan vastly depends on whether you want to better its match-up against offense or defense, and so the choice of coverage options is ultimately team-reliant, but it is true that Mega Kangaskhan wants to run more moves than the ones in bold characters because it enjoys additional coverage to hit Pokémon that its STAB Body Slam or Return is ineffective against. We can note that Body Slam has a good chance of incapacitating switch-ins like Clefable or Alomomola, thus introducing an element of luck about half the time.

 

I want to point out a contradiction that I noticed here and elsewhere about Mega Kangaskhan forcing teams to resort to Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin, Iron Barbs, and Regenerator users. If the desired effect is to weaken Stall – even though dedicated Stall teams are far from common –, then freeing a Pokémon that would result in an uptick in the usage of the decried Pokémon, like Alomomola and Clefable, sounds counterproductive. I suspect that many conflate Stall and Balance even though they are widely different. Stall wins by attrition – by slowly wearing down the opponent with hazards, status, etc., while preventing them from making progress. That is one of the ways to beat Mega Kangaskhan.

 

You mention that the ability to break Focus Sash and Sturdy and hit Pokémon like Kyurem behind their Substitute would be beneficial. I would argue that Offense suffers from this. Currently, just to give an example, many Hyper Offense variants rely on the prevention of hazards with a suicide lead like Aerodactyl or Excadrill. Mega Lopunny is renowned for doing well against those traditional HO builds; Mega Kangaskhan also has access to Fake Out in conjunction with Power-Up Punch and Sucker Punch, as well as a respectable Speed tier that places it above almost all of the non-Mega HO picks. Mega Kangaskhan can turn Excadrill into setup fodder thanks to Power-Up Punch. It can even afford to stay in against Focus Sash Breloom because it always survives Mach Punch and has a good chance to OHKO it with Return. Obviously, it does not want to do that, but it can if absolutely necessary. If Mega Kangaskhan acquires a simple Power-Up Punch boost, for example against the suicide lead, it can OHKO some of the sturdiest Pokémon on HO, like bulky Manaphy and Azumarill, while surviving a few neutral priority hits in an effort to revenge-kill it. Dragonite survives most of the time if its Multiscale is intact and, while offensive Mega Scizor lives as well if we assume a non-Fire Punch set, Mega Kangaskhan can just Power-Up Punch again then KO it because Bullet Punch barely scratches its 105/100 physical bulk. Mega Metagross outspeeds Mega Kangaskhan but can fall to +2 Sucker Punch from full. For Mega Pinsir, it depends on the set; many players enjoy Adamant instead of Jolly for the extra boost, which can make it slower than Mega Kangaskhan if it is Jolly instead of Adamant. Jolly outspeeds Mimikyu and does not fear Blacephalon, Gengar, or any of the faster, Sucker Punch-weak options run on HO.

 

Moreover, while your comparison with Mega Mawile has merit, Mega Kangaskhan would still outspeed or threaten to +2 priority-KO most Pokémon on standard HO. Fake Out is also an invaluable safety net against Offense. There are more offensive team structures to cover, of course – Rain offense, Trick Room offense, etc.

 

My point is that, while it may seem like Mega Kangaskhan would help against threats like Sub Kyurem, there would be too much collateral damage. It is nowhere near as slow as some make it out to be. +2 Sucker Punch still does a number on faster Pokémon.

 

Your point about the stale and repetitive nature of the metagame is one I can share. As you know, PvP Coordinators are very limited in what they can currently do. Releases are not something that we oversee, although we can make suggestions to the content team like any other player can. PvP changes are a possibility, but we should not shake up the metagame without a precise purpose, because doing so recklessly can lead to chaos. It might be new and different, but it could very well result in an unhealthy, less skill-based metagame, so we need to exercise caution.

 

On the topic of Kyurem, which you mentioned: If you believe that it is broken, we should not free another potentially broken Pokémon to deal with it; instead, we should focus on the problem at hand – Kyurem. Obviously, the previous vote was too split, with a slight majority of PvP Coordinators voting to keep it unbanned, but the margin was slim enough for the Pokémon to remain on our radar and continue being discussed. It can still be banned if a majority is reached in the near or far future.

[Pisforpenguin]

14 hours ago, Poppachav said:

MUST - Fake Out

MUST- PuP

Choice of two: Sucker Punch, Body Slam, Fire/Ice/Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Return (Bold being ideal)

I would argue the only real required move is strong stab in the form of Return/Double Edge, which can even be dropped for the weaker body slam for para chance. The Other moves that have viability include: Fake Out, PuP, Sucker Punch, Crunch, Fire Punch, Drain Punch, and to a lesser extent EQ. All of these have their own upsides and downsides. All of these are with the upside of breaking sashes + sturdy and both hits having individual chances to crit.

 

22 hours ago, Qwatte said:

Sir. Player base 70-80% said stall to strong. We need more wallbreakers. I understand what you write and i see Kanga so OP, but Flip,Wish Alom+Clef regen core samely to OP. If i join normal ranked match at gold server, every 2nd team is stall..

At the same time the player base likes to contradict themselves and say there is too many offensive threats and not enough defensive answers. Such as we should be prioritize adding toxapex/corviknight/slowking-g. So which is it is there not enough wall breakers/offensive threats or is there not enough defensive pieces.

 

14 hours ago, Poppachav said:

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 57-67 (17 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ Def Skarmory Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 204-240 (58.1 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 80-96 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO

80+ Def Ferrothorn Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan-Mega: 170-202 (48.4 - 57.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 248-294 (74.2 - 88%) -- 0.4% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 224-268 (67 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 37-44 (11 - 13.1%) -- possible 7HKO

 

Skarm is arguably the best answer but with and without rocks rolls exist to get the OHKO.

 

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 272-324 (77.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 540-640 (153.4 - 181.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 270-320 (76.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Ferrothorn: 300-356 (85.2 - 101.1%) -- 41% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

Ferrothorn on the other hand is not as great of a check based on the set you are referring to you either need to index greater into the defensive side or find another answer.

 

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 229-271 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 95.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 195-230 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

Clefable is unable to reliably switch in. It has to be saved fairly healthy and make a safe entrance to get anything done

 

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 296-352 (92.2 - 109.6%) -- 96.9% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Crunch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 316-374 (98.4 - 116.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 394-468 (122.7 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

There are many options to deal with aegislash outside of sucker.

 

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Fire Punch vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 164-194 (60.7 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan-Mega Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 220-260 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- 6.6% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

As you can see Kang also has options to deal with Mawile I noticed you mentioned earlier it would be forced into Fake Out + Return to not kill.

15 hours ago, Poppachav said:

Unrelated point but I brought this up to a few people earlier so figure I will post here as well. In many scenarios you will switch to Kangaskhan after a pokemon feints. You will Mega-Evo and get +2 from Power Up Punch. After that you would way to out speed faster poke is through Sucker Punch, meaning if you are playing H.O. the rest of the game is Sucker Punch +2 to go first. This is very similar to playing Mega Mawile in Trick Room after 1 Swords Dance, that said the damage output for 1 Swords Dance Sucker Punch on Mega Mawile is higher than that of Power Up Punch + Sucker Punch Mega Kangaskhan. My point of all of this is to say, in the most likely scenario, Mega Kangaskhan is less impactful than Mega Mawile.

I don't really follow your line of thought here. Mega Kanga is both bulkier and faster than Mega Mawile, this allows Kang to more freely hit with stab + super effective moves. It is not forced into spamming +2 sucker punches as often as Mawile. Not to mention the Mawile user has to give up a free turn to get to +2 something Kang can forgo. 

[Unbannedme]

-1

[Janocacique]

-1

[Rhulk]

+1.