h.a. Gothielle needs to be revised

[Alexisetmimi]

253355

253331

253313 i don`t play gothy and i am against banning it, since all of people from here are playing slowbrow/blissey and all the tanks/regenerators and other boring/unfair things like stallers and all sort of those pokemons :>. You want ban gothy, i an ban slowbrow and so on as an exemple, deal with it as long as it don`t affects the abuse of an ability/move that is not working correctly. Just deal with it and stop crying about it ^^

 

i agree what Eli say, most of the guys who are crying about gothi are staller players, or those sort of pokes. and , tbh gothi can get rekt by a lots of poke ;)

 

Actually, the only guys i've seen crying so far are those who desperately need Goth to stay in order to deter people from running stall teams. I mean, i really hate stall, it's boring as f*ck and nobody really enjoys spending one hour on a battle full of recover/roost/heal beal/defog/regenerator. But hey, it's an official playstyle (btw, stall teams can still be beaten w/o broken mon or abilities, the top ladder on showdown is dominated by balanced or offensive oriented teams), with this type of reasoning, why not allowing things like Primal Groudon or Arceus to completely make sure that no stall teams will be able to withstand you? Yeah, it's an excessive example, i concede that but i was just showing that these words can be taken for something like "stall is evil so everything that can destroy it is welcomed".

 

Personnaly, i don't care if Goth gets banned or not. Sure it is strong but without the scarf and trick, it is not totally broken. It's just the "i hate stall, i don't want to fight stall so i want it to stay just to deny this playstyle" argument which bugs me a bit even if i can't stand stall teams likewise.

 

But i will also be partial. With the lack of choice items and life orb atm, breaking through full stall team can be a real pain since you clearly miss some wallbreaking potential. So i can understand why some of you want it to remain.

253326 To the previous comment: I'm sure you got atleast 2 pokemons Gothitelle can setup in. + Your Prankster Sableye wouldnt stand on his feet too long against a +6 gothitelle unless you're surprisingly lucky with the confusion.

 

In fact, Gothitelle cannot do anything on Sableye since it only runs Psychic/Psyshock as an offensive move (Calm mind, Rest, Thunder wave, Psychic/Psyshock) so yes, any dark type will counter it. You can drop T-Wave for a coverage move but it will suffer at setting up and at resting without the help of paralysis on Blissey.

253343 Yep, i totally agree. Thats why PRO-PvP should be even more uncompetitive as showdown or other battle-simulators. Until a specific point u cant make a strategy cause u dont know whats your win-condition. But still ppl manage to reach win-rates from 5:1 or even better. Thats cause they are experienced enough to build a successful team cause they know that many, many important PvP- items/abilities/moves arent working and can abuse this. Matchmaking has a big role here too. So without team preview, PRO-PvP gonna become a nice luck fest if all the stuff is working.;) But thats a bit off topic now. :P

 

 

If u all want gothitelle banned, sure, just do it.

I was planning to test out some kinda stall team in near future anyway cause i think thats the ultimate answer in PRO to deal with the big amount of typical Hax why u sometimes lose and so i have one thing less to worry about while team-building. Still not sure, if it works out, but ill see.^^ And if u all like to see more stall again, cause ppl arent afraid to face a goth from time to time, and like to have long fights in this young unevolved PvP-Meta, where Regenerator/Leftovers are working while Choice-Items, SheerForce/Iron fist etc -abis are missing, a gothitelle-ban clearly helps u with that. :)

 

It's hard to disagree with this. ;)

 

last month i was playing with some stall in my team, the gameplay was like, hey bruh , i havn't any notion of poke fight so i use taht to waste your time, i've farmed a gothi, she was in 90% of the case a poke that i can't use cause there was no poke to put gothi on it, and in rare case , i was killing a blissey, a weavile comes and cya gothi, i've selled all my team to make an offensive one, and staller are the badest things i've see, that make me stop pvp until i can get a things that will detroy them ( not a gothi keep calm :D ). Anyway, staller are crying cause they can't play their sh*t pokes , and gothi player cry for keep it. that just a little thing about a poke, even move, abi and object arn't coded yet ;) so in my advice just be patient :Shy:

[Einheria]

253361 staller are the badest things i've see, that make me stop pvp until i can get a things that will detroy them

 

Well, i have to admit that i can't see the fun in using a stall team either, unless you love to spend hours on one battle. It's like winning/laddering at all cost but it's a bit off-topic

253361 Anyway, staller are crying cause they can't play their sh*t pokes , and gothi player cry for keep it

 

It is indeed a correct overview of the debate

[Nasulelijah]

again, i don`t even own, neither i want a gothy xD, is just what you are saying and want to implement is just stupid :P. This is my oppinion and alot of guys agree with me, and not because they play with the specific pokemon, but because this is kinda un-just, if we all are asking to ban x and y it will not be a good thing when staff, if staff will listen to others for exemple and not listen to others :), it will start something kinda bad ^^

[Tymerod]

253339 if staff are listening to you to ban shadow tag along with boosting setup, why they won`t accept banning stallers or 6 pokemons team all tank ? you want to start a revolution or something without knowing the consequence ;), maybe is just me but if they really ban because 1 or 2 guys said so, is a good consideration to just quit the game if they don`t ban what me and other 3-5 people are wanting xD, as a good exemple

because u can switch in taunt users like gengar (a support blissey cant do anything against gengar with taunt, slowbro has to fear shadow ball, tangrowth sludge bomb, curselax will fear focus blast once implemented, skarmory cant whirlwind it out and gets 2HKO'ed, ...). Against set up sweeper u can switch in a pokemon with haze (or unaware once it works) or a resisting pokemon or a pokemon with a super effektiv prio move (for example ice shard against DD boosted dragons), while u cant do these things against gothitelle before it has killed a pokemon.

253355

253326 To the previous comment: I'm sure you got atleast 2 pokemons Gothitelle can setup in. + Your Prankster Sableye wouldnt stand on his feet too long against a +6 gothitelle unless you're surprisingly lucky with the confusion.

In fact, Gothitelle cannot do anything on Sableye since it only runs Psychic/Psyshock as an offensive move (Calm mind, Rest, Thunder wave, Psychic/Psyshock) so yes, any dark type will counter it. You can drop T-Wave for a coverage move but it will suffer at setting up and at resting without the help of paralysis on Blissey.

why would u use thunder wave? the smogon move set is designed for uber's not for PRO. Pokemons in uber are stronger than the pokemons allowed in PRO-PvP that's why u wanna cripple them to setup more easily and deny them some attacks. With more than 300 HP blissey needs 4 hits with seismic toss to kill gothitelle. so u set up to +3, use rest+chesto berry and u have a 2HKO on blissey with psyshock while remaining more than 100 HP.

In Pro u can run signal beam to take care of dark type switch ins like Weavile (a chesto berry set with signal beam 0HKO's Weavile at +3 while knock off only deals 52,9%-62,7% when chesto berry is used), Sableye (chance to 2HKO at +6 even with Recover, while taking less than 41% even as a sassy one from knock off), honchkrow (0HKO at +6 while sucker punch deals 79.3 - 93.6% against a bold one), Hydreigon, houndoom, Tyrannitar. the only dark type that has a gueranteed 0HKO is Bisharp with crunch or sucker punch.

also some1 showed that slowbro killed gothitelle. happening if u use calm mind on slowbro and in this case u will always win against gothitelle if only carrying psyshock (because u resist it but gothitelle wont resist scald and u have better recovery in slack off). Will be more close against signal beam or taunt. Just because your opponent is bad doesnt mean gothitelle is.

Yes heracross 0HKO's it with megahorn if megahorn hits. Scizor 2HKO's it with bug bite but why stay in against these pokemons?

 

Right now the only good thing is that Gothitelle isnt used to its full potential in PRO because people only see it as a stall trapper (thats the reason i only lost one game against gothitelle which was able to setup on my tentacruel and swept my team after) when it only needs one special attacker without a super effective move. Once people start to build their team around gothitelle (like wish support) its getting more frustrating and even offensive teams will start to struggle, but so far i havent seen anyone doing this.

 

 

edit:

added that trying to setup as gothitelle with the standard set on slowbro is always a bad idea. calm mind slowbro will always win if gothitelle isnt running taunt.

 

edit2:

i guess most people will think different once encore is implemented or some of the top players start to use gothitelle

[Shiio]

Guys I didn't read everything.. but to those who were sad cause their Slowbro and Blissey were loosing to Gothitelle, did you find a solution yet? Or will you accept it as it is ? I mean that's a pokemon meta, hopefully there is no perfect team nor there are overpowered pokemons (hey the op ones are banned already).

 

Just play and improve, if you can't think of a solution although it gets me to think that you're more likely not willing to find one, then play more and try some alternatives. Please, just please, let the metagame progress.

[Coop33]

253355 (btw, stall teams can still be beaten w/o broken mon or abilities, the top ladder on showdown is dominated by balanced or offensive oriented teams), with this type of reasoning, why not allowing things like Primal Groudon or Arceus to completely make sure that no stall teams will be able to withstand you? Yeah, it's an excessive example

 

Well u have to admit that showdown PvP is much much more different than PRO-PvP.^^ And Arceus and Groudon would probably beat a bit more than just stall-teams. xd Arceus Silk-Scarf SD Extreme speeds and gg. xd Would be all available here in PRO. :P

 

253355

253326 To the previous comment: I'm sure you got atleast 2 pokemons Gothitelle can setup in. + Your Prankster Sableye wouldnt stand on his feet too long against a +6 gothitelle unless you're surprisingly lucky with the confusion.

 

In fact, Gothitelle cannot do anything to Sableye since it only runs Psychic/Psyshock as an offensive move (Calm mind, Rest, Thunder wave, Psychic/Psyshock) so yes, any dark type will counter it. You can drop T-Wave for a coverage move but it will suffer at setting up and at resting without the help of paralysis on Blissey.

 

Exactly, moveslot-syndrom.:) If u wanna check this wall u lack a move to check another wall or the switch in. This prob changes with trick-choice working. Then its really a bit uncompetitive.^^

253368

253361 staller are the badest things i've see, that make me stop pvp until i can get a things that will detroy them

 

Well, i have to admit that i can't see the fun in using a stall team either, unless you love to spend hours on one battle. It's like winning/laddering at all cost but it's a bit off-topic

 

Bingo! Winning/laddering at all cost, thats how many ppl think. :) And the reason was that only top 25 got prices. So u stall your *** off until your opponent dcs from impatience or u melt him slowly down in a PP-war. So much fun and skill wow, but effective!^^ U arent getting punished so hard for risky plays

or wrong switch ins. Or hax in general.

Maybe changes with the new lack-luster Reward-system, but hey thats another problem.

253380 This is my oppinion and alot of guys agree with me, and not because they play with the specific pokemon, but because this is kinda un-just, if we all are asking to ban x and y it will not be a good thing when staff, if staff will listen to others for exemple and not listen to others :), it will start something kinda bad ^^

 

Thats right. Thats an issue u also have to consider. I often read: "Staff should ban this, staff should do this etc pp. " U dont have to forget PRO isnt Showdown. Showdowns essence is battling, its made by battlers for battlers. I wouldnt be so sure that everyone in staff here are experienced battlers. And there are many things u have to consider before banning a pokemon. U have to value the current META in PRO and notice whats really broken and whats not. Thats a tough job and needs hugh knowledge about battling. Even in showdown thats a commitee of very experienced battlers who also respect and consider the opinion of high ranked showdown players in some suspects.

 

If a move/ability is bugged atm, thats an easy decision. And this also intends that at some point the community can use the pokemon again. So they are satisfied. "Time wasnt wasted to catch this pokemon."

U dont click it in PRO like in showdown, there is a lot of work in it to get it PvP-ready. And u cant justify this by: "OK if u wanna play your Gothitelle, rank up for the UBER-queue". This isnt there and i still believe its a bad idea to split the queue cause of Max 1800 players who arent pvpler or arent able to pvp anyway atm. Thats how it is. ;)

 

I mean in a case, where the whole community or at least >95% of the community sees: "Hey everytime i face this poke, i lose. Thats broken, ban it." Its an easier decision.

But for gothitelle this isnt the case.

If trick-choice is working, ill vote to ban her. Np. And i stay with my opinion, atm the fear of gothitelle being around makes PvP more fun and competitive as before.:)

And im not facing so much stall atm than i used to face, so i dont use her. Ive got some other ways to make toxic umbreon dc on me, if i face a stall team, with a move slot not being wasted on gothitelle if i dont face a stall team.

[Nasulelijah]

well at least is nice to see that i don`t talk non-sense here and somebody really understand without whining at me ^^ thanks coop33. Since gothilete was in pvp at least we see a poke that can be countered not so hard and we escape from the meta without items slowbro/blissey etc etc etc. It bringed more variety to the pvp :). Something that needs to be seen more often and hopefully soon. Anyway i am sure 90% of the players from pro once you take some pokemons from them, they will be kinda 0 and luck based aka Sableye confuse ray bug, stalls, 6 tank teams and so on ^^

[Kansu]

253049 stop running stall and you wont lose to a goth lol

 

THIIIIIIS ! GOTH does nothing against offense, stop complaining.

[Bigdanny]

i don't use gothe in pvp

 

but i am very sure that it's all about team build and how u run ur pokemons

 

if u run a bold defensive politoed and u don't run perish song or swagger, ofc u will get rekt by gothe

 

but if u run an offensive modest politoed with swagger or perish song, i am very sure gothe will be rekt by politoed or at least become useless

 

for me, blissey is more abused than gothe, ppl just too over-rely on blissey as a spatk wall

 

it can almost destroy all spatk pokemons, if u don't switch to physical attacker, u are just a delicious meal for blissey

 

if u switch to physical attacker(not ground type ), u are still have chance to get thunder-waved and then the stall player will just switch blissey to

 

another wall pokemon that can counter ur physical attcker, it's really more boring and depressing to face stall team than gothe

 

gothe just a good way to beat those wall, but it will never be able to threat an offensive team

 

if a gothe can easily beat ur team, just stop over-reling on wall pokemons like blissey, slowbro, tentacruel, ferro and etc.

 

and don't forgot, everything has it's pros and cons, it's all ur choice :Grin:

[Einheria]

253398 why would u use thunder wave? the smogon move set is designed for uber's not for PRO. Pokemons in uber are stronger than the pokemons allowed in PRO-PvP that's why u wanna cripple them to setup more easily and deny them some attacks. With more than 300 HP blissey needs 4 hits with seismic toss to kill gothitelle. so u set up to +3, use rest+chesto berry and u have a 2HKO on blissey with psyshock while remaining more than 100 HP.

In Pro u can run signal beam to take care of dark type switch ins like Weavile (a chesto berry set with signal beam 0HKO's Weavile at +3 while knock off only deals 52,9%-62,7% when chesto berry is used), Sableye (chance to 2HKO at +6 even with Recover, while taking less than 41% even as a sassy one from knock off), honchkrow (0HKO at +6 while sucker punch deals 79.3 - 93.6% against a bold one), Hydreigon, houndoom, Tyrannitar. the only dark type that has a gueranteed 0HKO is Bisharp with crunch or sucker punch.

also some1 showed that slowbro killed gothitelle. happening if u use calm mind on slowbro and in this case u will always win against gothitelle if only carrying psyshock (because u resist it but gothitelle wont resist scald and u have better recovery in slack off). Will be more close against signal beam or taunt. Just because your opponent is bad doesnt mean gothitelle is.

Yes heracross 0HKO's it with megahorn if megahorn hits. Scizor 2HKO's it with bug bite but why stay in against these pokemons?

 

Right now the only good thing is that Gothitelle isnt used to its full potential in PRO because people only see it as a stall trapper (thats the reason i only lost one game against gothitelle which was able to setup on my tentacruel and swept my team after) when it only needs one special attacker without a super effective move. Once people start to build their team around gothitelle (like wish support) its getting more frustrating and even offensive teams will start to struggle, but so far i havent seen anyone doing this.

 

Because T-Wave enables Goth to neutralize offensive threats since a paralysed dragon dancer or sweeper which relies on its speed is no longer dangerous. Want to see how it fares against a Gyarados as an example? Even without trick, a paralysed Gyarados can easily be pick off by a teammate.

 

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-270457032

 

But signal beam is a good coverage move on it though. Some Goth players should give it a try to take on dark types. With the implementation of U-turn and Volt switch, it is easier for her to switch in so we already have tools to build around and support Gothitelle, making her dangerous even for offensive teams.

253415 Thats right. Thats an issue u also have to consider. I often read: "Staff should ban this, staff should do this etc pp. " U dont have to forget PRO isnt Showdown. Showdowns essence is battling, its made by battlers for battlers. I wouldnt be so sure that everyone in staff here are experienced battlers. And there are many things u have to consider before banning a pokemon. U have to value the current META in PRO and notice whats really broken and whats not. Thats a tough job and needs hugh knowledge about battling. Even in showdown thats a commitee of very experienced battlers who also respect and consider the opinion of high ranked showdown players in some suspects.

 

Allow me to get off-topic a bit : the thing is it's clearly impossible to satisfy everyone. When it comes to a ban, no matter the final decision is, there will be dissatisfied players among pro or con. As far as i'm concerned, Hoopa Unbound was my favorite wallbreaker so i let you imagine how disappointed i was when smogon council has decided to ban it, even if it has major flaws (thin paper physical defense and mediocre speed). But hey, the majority has voted for a ban so i had to abide by the rules.

 

Imo a vote is a fair way to determine the fate of a suspect pokemon. If most players votes for a ban, then it should be banned and vice versa. The majority has voted for it to remain? Then so be it.