Bold Ninetales EVs

[Guest lampshadejaz]

Disclaimer: My primary Sun Team Ninetales is Timid and has an offensive moveset, but I'm testing out a Bold one to see how it goes. How would you EV train the Bold one? Below are scenarios. I'm leaning towards Scenario 1 myself.... But what are your thoughts?

 

 

Scenario 1.) Put roughly 16 EVs on SPD, Outspeed the Adamant 70SPD and below Breloom, Bisharp, Scizor, etc

Scenario 2.) Put roughly 100 EVs on SPD, Outspeed the Adamant 81SPD and below Gyarados, Dragonite, Mamoswine, Breloom, Bisharp, Scizor, etc

Scenario 3.) Put a full 252 EVs on SPD, Outspeed the Adamant 100SPD and below Salamence, Growlithes, Electivire, Haxorus, Gyarados, Dragonite, Mamoswine, Breloom, Bisharp, Scizor, etc

 

Also note, I typically lead with Ninetales and lots of people lead with a Dragonite and run Dragon Dance. When I see a Dragonite lead, I usually lead with Roar to toss them out. So my SPD EVs mean absolutely nothing since its' a -1 Priority move... So should I not bother trying to EV train SPD much and target Scenario 1 where I'm only out speeding the 70SPD poke? But Mamoswine is a different scenario. I could outspeed him and lead with Will O Wisp on him, but that 15% of the time when it fails i'm left in a horrible position. So it's best to change poke in that scenario anyways rather than losing the game when Will O Wisp fails... So Is there a point to trying to out speed poke with a Bold Ninetales?

 

Here are two screenshots of examples of things i may want to out speed, you can see I sacrifice 20 HP when trying ot outspeed an Adamant Dragonite vs just trying to outspeed a Adamant Breloom.

[Jamesling95]

but even 31def bold will still die on earthquake right

[Xrevolutionx94]

With sun going and def evs + a def nature that would make some of the strongest physical water types poop ;D I think it would be a good test tbh and it might be good for pvp I might do a full hp/spattk or hp/speed just because if you were to only ev the def it would leave its spdef little to not so giving it hp 252 buffs the spdef and def if you do full def/hp that would be pretty big but too slow so maybe something like 252 hp 100speed rest spattk?

[Guest lampshadejaz]

but even 31def bold will still die on earthquake right

 

Bold Ninetales will survive an earthquake! That's a big part of the reason to go bold.

[Guest lampshadejaz]

317558 With sun going and def evs + a def nature that would make some of the strongest physical water types [Censored] ;D I think it would be a good test tbh and it might be good for pvp I might do a full hp/spattk or hp/speed just because if you were to only ev the def it would leave its spdef little to not so giving it hp 252 buffs the spdef and def if you do full def/hp that would be pretty big but too slow so maybe something like 252 hp 100speed rest spattk?

 

So the concern I have with not putting as much EV on DEF as possible is that it's going to put it closer to a 1HKO vs an Adamant Earthquake or Stone Edge. So the moveset I run on my Bold Ninetales right now is Roar, Flamethrower, Will O Wisp, Sunny Day. If I were to put a decent amount of EVs on SPATK then I'd be tempted to put a Solar Beam or something on there. And Solar Beam is horrible vs Sand teams for obvious reasons.

[Idkup]

0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 240-284 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

 

still a pretty bad idea to try to take on tyranitar.

 

ninetales vs toed is dependent on whose weather is up, regardless of what set you run

 

as for the cleaners of the respective weathers...

 

252 Atk Soft Sand Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 350-414 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 188-224 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 152-180 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 260-308 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

all of the water calcs are in sun btw

 

 

seems to me you're better off running timid to outspeed these guys instead of trying to tank their attacks, at least in a weather war.

[Guest lampshadejaz]

322815 0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 240-284 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

 

still a pretty bad idea to try to take on tyranitar.

 

ninetales vs toed is dependent on whose weather is up, regardless of what set you run

 

as for the cleaners of the respective weathers...

 

252 Atk Soft Sand Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 350-414 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 188-224 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 152-180 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 260-308 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

all of the water calcs are in sun btw

 

 

seems to me you're better off running timid to outspeed these guys instead of trying to tank their attacks, at least in a weather war.

 

 

I'm not arguing against your calculations, they're legit. But you're miss-understanding the role of a Bold Ninetales. It's job is to control weather, force out or force switches, and take shots at pokes that have 2x and 4x fire weakness. Under no circumstance are you trying take on a Tyrantiar, Excadrill, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, etc. Ninetales is a really crappy pokemon on it's own. It's actually terrible. It's used for it's Drought ability, and for weather control. So you cannot play it 1 vs 1 against anything unless that thing has a fire weakness. BUT you can use it for specific things.

[Idkup]

323217

322815 0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 240-284 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

 

still a pretty bad idea to try to take on tyranitar.

 

ninetales vs toed is dependent on whose weather is up, regardless of what set you run

 

as for the cleaners of the respective weathers...

 

252 Atk Soft Sand Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 350-414 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 188-224 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 152-180 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 260-308 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

all of the water calcs are in sun btw

 

 

seems to me you're better off running timid to outspeed these guys instead of trying to tank their attacks, at least in a weather war.

 

 

I'm not arguing against your calculations, they're legit. But you're miss-understanding the role of a Bold Ninetales. It's job is to control weather, force out or force switches, and take shots at pokes that have 2x and 4x fire weakness. Under no circumstance are you trying take on a Tyrantiar, Excadrill, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, etc. Ninetales is a really crappy pokemon on it's own. It's actually terrible. It's used for it's Drought ability, and for weather control. So you cannot play it 1 vs 1 against anything unless that thing has a fire weakness. BUT you can use it for specific things.

 

Bulk on Ninetales is so that it can take on opposing weather in a weather war. Otherwise you only really need to use it once, to set up your Venusaur/secondary Chlorophyll for a sweep, rendering bulk rather unnecessary, and possibly even a hindrance (you might want it to die in one shot so your Venusaur has more turns in the sun). Timid Ninetales has the distinct advantage of being able to 1v1 weakened Swift Swim and Sand Rush Pokemon such as Excadrill and Kingdra, which Bold cannot. These calcs show that Bold does not help take on anything on opposing weather, while Timid does, therefore, it is the better option. Unlike Tyranitar, the role of Ninetales is first, foremost, and only to get Sunny Day in play, and keep Sunny Day on the field, as its offensive capacity is weak, its bulk is middling, and its speed leaves quite a bit to be desired. Being able to take on specific threats on opposing weather given a free switch is more important than sponging random hits, which Ninetales really should not be doing.

[Guest lampshadejaz]

323261

323217

322815 0 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 240-284 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

 

still a pretty bad idea to try to take on tyranitar.

 

ninetales vs toed is dependent on whose weather is up, regardless of what set you run

 

as for the cleaners of the respective weathers...

 

252 Atk Soft Sand Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 350-414 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Mystic Water Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 188-224 (53.7 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ninetales: 152-180 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ninetales: 260-308 (74.2 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

all of the water calcs are in sun btw

 

 

seems to me you're better off running timid to outspeed these guys instead of trying to tank their attacks, at least in a weather war.

 

 

I'm not arguing against your calculations, they're legit. But you're miss-understanding the role of a Bold Ninetales. It's job is to control weather, force out or force switches, and take shots at pokes that have 2x and 4x fire weakness. Under no circumstance are you trying take on a Tyrantiar, Excadrill, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, etc. Ninetales is a really crappy pokemon on it's own. It's actually terrible. It's used for it's Drought ability, and for weather control. So you cannot play it 1 vs 1 against anything unless that thing has a fire weakness. BUT you can use it for specific things.

 

Bulk on Ninetales is so that it can take on opposing weather in a weather war. Otherwise you only really need to use it once, to set up your Venusaur/secondary Chlorophyll for a sweep, rendering bulk rather unnecessary, and possibly even a hindrance (you might want it to die in one shot so your Venusaur has more turns in the sun). Timid Ninetales has the distinct advantage of being able to 1v1 weakened Swift Swim and Sand Rush Pokemon such as Excadrill and Kingdra, which Bold cannot. These calcs show that Bold does not help take on anything on opposing weather, while Timid does, therefore, it is the better option. Unlike Tyranitar, the role of Ninetales is first, foremost, and only to get Sunny Day in play, and keep Sunny Day on the field, as its offensive capacity is weak, its bulk is middling, and its speed leaves quite a bit to be desired. Being able to take on specific threats on opposing weather given a free switch is more important than sponging random hits, which Ninetales really should not be doing.

 

I respect your opinion, but let me ask you: how many games have you played with sun team with a timid Ninetails. And how many games have you played with a bold Ninetails? Because I think if you were to play even half as many as I have, you would come to realize that your theory does not apply well in practice. For several reasons that are hard to get into through typing without showing you clear examples via a video and dialogue or something.

 

1.) Solar beam absolutely sucks when you're against any other weather team.

2.) You get 1 shot killed by so much.

3.) if you have a Timid Ninetales and you run into a sand team you may as well just quit. Because Solar beam is a death trap and half the poke on a sand team 1 shot kill you.

4.) You get destroyed by priority moves which make your speed useless and still do massive damage to you with your low DEF and HP

 

If you told me ahead of time that my next 10 opponents would not have any weather casters on their team, then I would run timid. But the fact of the matter is that timid gets destroyed against other weather teams. Especially sand since Tyranitar absolutely rapes Ninetails and solar beam

[Idkup]

323275

323261

323217

 

 

I'm not arguing against your calculations, they're legit. But you're miss-understanding the role of a Bold Ninetales. It's job is to control weather, force out or force switches, and take shots at pokes that have 2x and 4x fire weakness. Under no circumstance are you trying take on a Tyrantiar, Excadrill, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, etc. Ninetales is a really crappy pokemon on it's own. It's actually terrible. It's used for it's Drought ability, and for weather control. So you cannot play it 1 vs 1 against anything unless that thing has a fire weakness. BUT you can use it for specific things.

 

Bulk on Ninetales is so that it can take on opposing weather in a weather war. Otherwise you only really need to use it once, to set up your Venusaur/secondary Chlorophyll for a sweep, rendering bulk rather unnecessary, and possibly even a hindrance (you might want it to die in one shot so your Venusaur has more turns in the sun). Timid Ninetales has the distinct advantage of being able to 1v1 weakened Swift Swim and Sand Rush Pokemon such as Excadrill and Kingdra, which Bold cannot. These calcs show that Bold does not help take on anything on opposing weather, while Timid does, therefore, it is the better option. Unlike Tyranitar, the role of Ninetales is first, foremost, and only to get Sunny Day in play, and keep Sunny Day on the field, as its offensive capacity is weak, its bulk is middling, and its speed leaves quite a bit to be desired. Being able to take on specific threats on opposing weather given a free switch is more important than sponging random hits, which Ninetales really should not be doing.

 

I respect your opinion, but let me ask you: how many games have you played with sun team with a timid Ninetails. And how many games have you played with a bold Ninetails? Because I think if you were to play even half as many as I have, you would come to realize that your theory does not apply well in practice. For several reasons that are hard to get into through typing without showing you clear examples via a video and dialogue or something.

 

1.) Solar beam absolutely sucks when you're against any other weather team.

2.) You get 1 shot killed by so much.

3.) if you have a Timid Ninetales and you run into a sand team you may as well just quit. Because Solar beam is a death trap and half the poke on a sand team 1 shot kill you.

4.) You get destroyed by priority moves which make your speed useless and still do massive damage to you with your low DEF and HP

 

If you told me ahead of time that my next 10 opponents would not have any weather casters on their team, then I would run timid. But the fact of the matter is that timid gets destroyed against other weather teams. Especially sand since Tyranitar absolutely rapes Ninetails and solar beam

1. don't run solar beam, it's bad... hp grass before solar beam and im pretty sure tales has better options than that

2. that's because of ninetales, not because of timid, as i said you really shouldn't be switching tales in on random attacks

3. same goes for bold, sun has a horrible matchup vs sand either way

4. why are you keeping ninetales in on any kind of priority