Manaphy in ranked PVP

[Baganha]

Your guys play them life to found argument, how is totally false and not good, We are on gen6 here, not gen5, Manaphy will not be banned, i dont want to debate for like 1 hours, i left this post, continue if you want.

 

Im not sure why you keep bringing up "we are in gen 6, not gen 5" argument? what did exactly gen 6 bring to the table that made manaphy more easily dealt with? i think you're trying to make a direct comparison to smogon, knowing that manaphy got unbanned from OU in gen 6, though im not sure why both of these things should be compared as they are very diferent from one another.

[Starkrey]

Ferro, AV Tang, Gengar can revengekill, Dnite, hard hitting priority (Conk, Breloom), Clef (Unaware) probably a lot more. Some need to be aware of Icebeam tho.

 

I don't want to be disrespectful in any way but you don't seem to know what a "counter" is.

Also, a regular Sassy Ferrothorn loses to Manaphy under rain if he doesn't have Power whip, can Rest freely, set up and spam Ice beam.

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 215-254 (61 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is sassy spedef invested Ferro Btw, i let you imaginate what a relaxed one takes).

Same for the Unaware Clefable you mentionned, it loses if you don't run Calm Mind on it, which isn't a great move either for this kind of Clef.

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable in Rain: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The rest aren't even counters or checks (Tang AV is but gets knocked out in 2 turns if the opponent already Tail Glow'ed) and can't OKHO a manaphy so idk what you wanted to say here, you also imply that i need to sacrify one pokemon to be able to possibly revenge kill it, if the opponent dares to stay and let you kill it of course (while he can actually keep it and rest later in order to attempt to sweep again).

 

I'm not saying there are litterally Zero counters to Manaphy, but being forced to play them in every team like Ferrothorn or HA Clef (with Specific sets btw), just for ONE pokemon is just unbalanced, and ruins teambuilding and the meta.

If you follow Showdown competitive scene, you'll also note that Pokemons like Zygarde got suspect tested recently.

Didn't Zygarde have counters ? Yes, it had (Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, other grass types / Clefable as a counter/check, other fairy types as counter/checks / Landorus / Ice types with Scarf or Priority, etc ). Guess what ? It got banned with close to a 80% approval rate iirc.

It's not only about "not having counters", but also about recognizing this Pokemon is too much of a threat for this PRO Meta, and does a huge job even against his "counters/checks", and if you dare to try playing without them, then you are open to a sweep of your team or having 2/3/4 mons killed by it. It simply makes the meta even worse and more boring than before, which is already an accomplishment, as it also reinforce Rain Teams' power and omnipresence.

[Chris]

I don't want to be disrespectful in any way but you don't seem to know what a "counter" is.

Also, a regular Sassy Ferrothorn loses to Manaphy under rain if he doesn't have Power whip, can Rest freely, set up and spam Ice beam.

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 215-254 (61 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this is sassy spedef invested Ferro Btw, i let you imaginate what a relaxed one takes).

Same for the Unaware Clefable you mentionned, it loses if you don't run Calm Mind on it, which isn't a great move either for this kind of Clef.

+6 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Clefable in Rain: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The rest aren't even counters or checks (Tang AV is but gets knocked out in 2 turns if the opponent already Tail Glow'ed) and can't OKHO a manaphy so idk what you wanted to say here, you also imply that i need to sacrify one pokemon to be able to possibly revenge kill it, if the opponent dares to stay and let you kill it of course (while he can actually keep it and rest later in order to attempt to sweep again).

 

I'm not saying there are litterally Zero counters to Manaphy, but being forced to play them in every team like Ferrothorn or HA Clef (with Specific sets btw), just for ONE pokemon is just unbalanced, and ruins teambuilding and the meta.

If you follow Showdown competitive scene, you'll also note that Pokemons like Zygarde got suspect tested recently.

Didn't Zygarde have counters ? Yes, it had (Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, other grass types / Clefable as a counter/check, other fairy types as counter/checks / Landorus / Ice types with Scarf or Priority, etc ). Guess what ? It got banned with close to a 80% approval rate iirc.

It's not only about "not having counters", but also about recognizing this Pokemon is too much of a threat for this PRO Meta, and does a huge job even against his "counters/checks", and if you dare to try playing without them, then you are open to a sweep of your team or having 2/3/4 mons killed by it. It simply makes the meta even worse and more boring than before, which is already an accomplishment, as it also reinforce Rain Teams' power and omnipresence.

 

I agree that I counted checks not counters, but if u need a counter then use CM Unaware Clef.

[Sixpacks]

Pro meta is just sad tbh, if you don't play fat mons you're most likely to get swept by togekiss or rain teams, not to forget about conk which has the capability to tank a hit and retaliate back with drain punch; almost gets the entire hp back every time. Due to the presence of conk and other mons like toge which can flinch its check and counters to death, it becomes mandatory to play fat mons. Seen players proudly bragging about killing a heatran with toge flinches, lmao. This just forces you to play fat mons which are perfect for a manaphy sweep. You can't touch it, mana will setup on your face, and more sucks when its speed/hp invested with rest played in a rain team. Unprepared teams for sure gonna get obliterated.

 

I don't see any pvpers who constantly stay at top of the ladder complaining about it. They know how broken it is and its always good to abuse broken mons :]

Edited March 11, 2019 by navneeth

[Heroofthestreet]

I just can't believe how people stubbornly keep repeating "Use unaware cm clef" when it's clearly NOT A COUNTER for manaphy in rain.

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Rain: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Or you want to pray that both times it gets the lower roll while it can still switch out and easily take it down the next time? (especially if hazards are present)

Or is it expected that we actually run calm? (LOL)

Edited March 11, 2019 by HeroOfTheStreet

[Baganha]

I just can't believe how people stubbornly keep repeating "Use unaware cm clef" when it's clearly NOT A COUNTER for manaphy in rain.

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Rain: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Or you want to pray that both times it gets the lower roll while it can still switch out and easily take it down the next time? (especially if hazards are present)

Or is it expected that we actually run calm? (LOL)

 

Yeah it has to run calm for it to be considered a counter, if you run 44 spdef evs (calcing with 31 ivs so you'll for sure need a bit more) it doesnt get 2hko by surf on rain after rocks, and have the rest ev spread left for defense which can still make you deal with mons like dd dnite, non lo chomp, breloom as long as you cant go to sleep and some other stuff. Obviously its up to you how much investment you want to put on clef.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Baganha

[Idkup]

... everyone here is overlooking the fact that you don't have to run slow balance or bulky offense, other archetypes exist and perform considerably better against Manaphy. No one is forcing you to play slow teams.

 

e: also the argument that you would run Unaware Clefable, one of the most versatile Pokemon in the game, solely to beat Manaphy is a bit disingenuous lmao

[Baganha]

... everyone here is overlooking the fact that you don't have to run slow balance or bulky offense, other archetypes exist and perform considerably better against Manaphy. No one is forcing you to play slow teams.

 

e: also the argument that you would run Unaware Clefable, one of the most versatile Pokemon in the game, solely to beat Manaphy is a bit disingenuous lmao

 

Ever since the beginning of me making this thread i never overlook manaphy's matchup against more offensive teams, i even mentioned in my original post that they had an easier job to deal with manaphy since they can chip it more effectively and are able to revenge kill it, unlike stall teams; but it doesnt take the fact that at +3, its killing a mon and while it might be hard for manaphy to setup it isnt impossible specially if it has access to rain and rest since surf + ice beam is all the coverage it needs for offense teams, options for its team like rain sweepers are really good paired up with manaphy as they excel in dealing with more offensive teams.

 

While i think manaphy is still pretty good at every MU, knowing that it has checks which are viable in the meta makes me understand the position youre in (assuming you dont believe manaphy is broken), although i cant say i agree, i dont believe a pokemon should be put on a vaccum and be judged by how good he is solely for its own attributes, if that was the case a ban like dugtrio's would make no sense. I cant actually think of many pokemon in pro's and smogon's history that got banned that exceeded at every single playstyle, maybe lando-i and potentially phero i guess.

 

I would never use calm unaware clef as i think its only place is in stall teams which are really bad in this current meta imo, teams are very easily pressured by conk and if youre not running that particular clef set, manaphy just 6-0s you unless you have haze mantine or something, it really lacks the presence of mega sableye.

[Chris]

... everyone here is overlooking the fact that you don't have to run slow balance or bulky offense, other archetypes exist and perform considerably better against Manaphy. No one is forcing you to play slow teams.

 

e: also the argument that you would run Unaware Clefable, one of the most versatile Pokemon in the game, solely to beat Manaphy is a bit disingenuous lmao

 

He asked for a counter and he got one, that's it

[Idkup]

Ever since the beginning of me making this thread i never overlook manaphy's matchup against more offensive teams, i even mentioned in my original post that they had an easier job to deal with manaphy since they can chip it more effectively and are able to revenge kill it, unlike stall teams; but it doesnt take the fact that at +3, its killing a mon and while it might be hard for manaphy to setup it isnt impossible specially if it has access to rain and rest since surf + ice beam is all the coverage it needs for offense teams, options for its team like rain sweepers are really good paired up with manaphy as they excel in dealing with more offensive teams.

 

While i think manaphy is still pretty good at every MU, knowing that it has checks which are viable in the meta makes me understand the position youre in (assuming you dont believe manaphy is broken), although i cant say i agree, i dont believe a pokemon should be put on a vaccum and be judged by how good he is solely for its own attributes, if that was the case a ban like dugtrio's would make no sense. I cant actually think of many pokemon in pro's and smogon's history that got banned that exceeded at every single playstyle, maybe lando-i and potentially phero i guess.

 

I would never use calm unaware clef as i think its only place is in stall teams which are really bad in this current meta imo, teams are very easily pressured by conk and if youre not running that particular clef set, manaphy just 6-0s you unless you have haze mantine or something, it really lacks the presence of mega sableye.

 

Manaphy is outright bad against offense unless it has support in the form of Sticky Web or Baton Passed Speed. It doesn't hit particularly hard without the Tail Glow, and offensive pressure can often prevent it from accomplishing much of anything.

 

Full Stall is not instant-lose into Manaphy any more than it is instant-lose into stallbreaker Togekiss or Gliscor. In fact, Toxic Chansey has a reasonable chance against Manaphy (outside of the rain), while your best response to Heal Bell Togekiss is, quite literally, disconnecting. Seeing as a stallbreaker is more or less mandatory on stall anyways (in order to not get flat 6-0'd by the aforementioned threats), the unique challenge that Manaphy presents is mostly due to its speed tier (ignoring Rain Dance Hydration Rest sets, which functionally are dealt with in similar manner to CroCune).

 

I can see the argument for Manaphy being unhealthy. TG 3 Attacks is excellent, quite possibly the best Pokemon in the game, to have when queueing into slow balance or semistall lacking Toxic Chansey; Rain Dance sets annihilate unprepared stall. Manaphy wins some matchups it has no business winning (eg. Ferrothorn sans Power Whip), and whenever it's seen in Team Preview your Pokemon slower than Manaphy can quickly become liabilities. But, the argument presented that you have to run Calm Mind Unaware Clefable to reliably answer it is simply untrue, and should not be used as a basis for any action against Manaphy, considering the similar resume of other setup stallbreakers, especially Nasty Plot Heal Bell Togekiss.

 

However, considering that slow balance is still the archetype of choice for many players, and that significant amounts of those same players achieve decent ladder results, Manaphy is not yet causing the polarization which would warrant a ban in my eyes. The metagame being forced to adapt is not a bad thing.