Manaphy in ranked PVP

[Sixpacks]

Pro meta is just sad tbh, if you don't play fat mons you're most likely to get swept by togekiss or rain teams, not to forget about conk which has the capability to tank a hit and retaliate back with drain punch; almost gets the entire hp back every time. Due to the presence of conk and other mons like toge which can flinch its check and counters to death, it becomes mandatory to play fat mons. Seen players proudly bragging about killing a heatran with toge flinches, lmao. This just forces you to play fat mons which are perfect for a manaphy sweep. You can't touch it, mana will setup on your face, and more sucks when its speed/hp invested with rest played in a rain team. Unprepared teams for sure gonna get obliterated.

 

I don't see any pvpers who constantly stay at top of the ladder complaining about it. They know how broken it is and its always good to abuse broken mons :]

Edited March 11, 2019 by navneeth

[Heroofthestreet]

I just can't believe how people stubbornly keep repeating "Use unaware cm clef" when it's clearly NOT A COUNTER for manaphy in rain.

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Rain: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Or you want to pray that both times it gets the lower roll while it can still switch out and easily take it down the next time? (especially if hazards are present)

Or is it expected that we actually run calm? (LOL)

Edited March 11, 2019 by HeroOfTheStreet

[Baganha]

I just can't believe how people stubbornly keep repeating "Use unaware cm clef" when it's clearly NOT A COUNTER for manaphy in rain.

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Rain: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Or you want to pray that both times it gets the lower roll while it can still switch out and easily take it down the next time? (especially if hazards are present)

Or is it expected that we actually run calm? (LOL)

 

Yeah it has to run calm for it to be considered a counter, if you run 44 spdef evs (calcing with 31 ivs so you'll for sure need a bit more) it doesnt get 2hko by surf on rain after rocks, and have the rest ev spread left for defense which can still make you deal with mons like dd dnite, non lo chomp, breloom as long as you cant go to sleep and some other stuff. Obviously its up to you how much investment you want to put on clef.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Baganha

[Idkup]

... everyone here is overlooking the fact that you don't have to run slow balance or bulky offense, other archetypes exist and perform considerably better against Manaphy. No one is forcing you to play slow teams.

 

e: also the argument that you would run Unaware Clefable, one of the most versatile Pokemon in the game, solely to beat Manaphy is a bit disingenuous lmao

[Baganha]

... everyone here is overlooking the fact that you don't have to run slow balance or bulky offense, other archetypes exist and perform considerably better against Manaphy. No one is forcing you to play slow teams.

 

e: also the argument that you would run Unaware Clefable, one of the most versatile Pokemon in the game, solely to beat Manaphy is a bit disingenuous lmao

 

Ever since the beginning of me making this thread i never overlook manaphy's matchup against more offensive teams, i even mentioned in my original post that they had an easier job to deal with manaphy since they can chip it more effectively and are able to revenge kill it, unlike stall teams; but it doesnt take the fact that at +3, its killing a mon and while it might be hard for manaphy to setup it isnt impossible specially if it has access to rain and rest since surf + ice beam is all the coverage it needs for offense teams, options for its team like rain sweepers are really good paired up with manaphy as they excel in dealing with more offensive teams.

 

While i think manaphy is still pretty good at every MU, knowing that it has checks which are viable in the meta makes me understand the position youre in (assuming you dont believe manaphy is broken), although i cant say i agree, i dont believe a pokemon should be put on a vaccum and be judged by how good he is solely for its own attributes, if that was the case a ban like dugtrio's would make no sense. I cant actually think of many pokemon in pro's and smogon's history that got banned that exceeded at every single playstyle, maybe lando-i and potentially phero i guess.

 

I would never use calm unaware clef as i think its only place is in stall teams which are really bad in this current meta imo, teams are very easily pressured by conk and if youre not running that particular clef set, manaphy just 6-0s you unless you have haze mantine or something, it really lacks the presence of mega sableye.

[Chris]

... everyone here is overlooking the fact that you don't have to run slow balance or bulky offense, other archetypes exist and perform considerably better against Manaphy. No one is forcing you to play slow teams.

 

e: also the argument that you would run Unaware Clefable, one of the most versatile Pokemon in the game, solely to beat Manaphy is a bit disingenuous lmao

 

He asked for a counter and he got one, that's it

[Idkup]

Ever since the beginning of me making this thread i never overlook manaphy's matchup against more offensive teams, i even mentioned in my original post that they had an easier job to deal with manaphy since they can chip it more effectively and are able to revenge kill it, unlike stall teams; but it doesnt take the fact that at +3, its killing a mon and while it might be hard for manaphy to setup it isnt impossible specially if it has access to rain and rest since surf + ice beam is all the coverage it needs for offense teams, options for its team like rain sweepers are really good paired up with manaphy as they excel in dealing with more offensive teams.

 

While i think manaphy is still pretty good at every MU, knowing that it has checks which are viable in the meta makes me understand the position youre in (assuming you dont believe manaphy is broken), although i cant say i agree, i dont believe a pokemon should be put on a vaccum and be judged by how good he is solely for its own attributes, if that was the case a ban like dugtrio's would make no sense. I cant actually think of many pokemon in pro's and smogon's history that got banned that exceeded at every single playstyle, maybe lando-i and potentially phero i guess.

 

I would never use calm unaware clef as i think its only place is in stall teams which are really bad in this current meta imo, teams are very easily pressured by conk and if youre not running that particular clef set, manaphy just 6-0s you unless you have haze mantine or something, it really lacks the presence of mega sableye.

 

Manaphy is outright bad against offense unless it has support in the form of Sticky Web or Baton Passed Speed. It doesn't hit particularly hard without the Tail Glow, and offensive pressure can often prevent it from accomplishing much of anything.

 

Full Stall is not instant-lose into Manaphy any more than it is instant-lose into stallbreaker Togekiss or Gliscor. In fact, Toxic Chansey has a reasonable chance against Manaphy (outside of the rain), while your best response to Heal Bell Togekiss is, quite literally, disconnecting. Seeing as a stallbreaker is more or less mandatory on stall anyways (in order to not get flat 6-0'd by the aforementioned threats), the unique challenge that Manaphy presents is mostly due to its speed tier (ignoring Rain Dance Hydration Rest sets, which functionally are dealt with in similar manner to CroCune).

 

I can see the argument for Manaphy being unhealthy. TG 3 Attacks is excellent, quite possibly the best Pokemon in the game, to have when queueing into slow balance or semistall lacking Toxic Chansey; Rain Dance sets annihilate unprepared stall. Manaphy wins some matchups it has no business winning (eg. Ferrothorn sans Power Whip), and whenever it's seen in Team Preview your Pokemon slower than Manaphy can quickly become liabilities. But, the argument presented that you have to run Calm Mind Unaware Clefable to reliably answer it is simply untrue, and should not be used as a basis for any action against Manaphy, considering the similar resume of other setup stallbreakers, especially Nasty Plot Heal Bell Togekiss.

 

However, considering that slow balance is still the archetype of choice for many players, and that significant amounts of those same players achieve decent ladder results, Manaphy is not yet causing the polarization which would warrant a ban in my eyes. The metagame being forced to adapt is not a bad thing.

[Baganha]

Manaphy is outright bad against offense unless it has support in the form of Sticky Web or Baton Passed Speed. It doesn't hit particularly hard without the Tail Glow, and offensive pressure can often prevent it from accomplishing much of anything.

 

Full Stall is not instant-lose into Manaphy any more than it is instant-lose into stallbreaker Togekiss or Gliscor. In fact, Toxic Chansey has a reasonable chance against Manaphy (outside of the rain), while your best response to Heal Bell Togekiss is, quite literally, disconnecting. Seeing as a stallbreaker is more or less mandatory on stall anyways (in order to not get flat 6-0'd by the aforementioned threats), the unique challenge that Manaphy presents is mostly due to its speed tier (ignoring Rain Dance Hydration Rest sets, which functionally are dealt with in similar manner to CroCune).

 

I can see the argument for Manaphy being unhealthy. TG 3 Attacks is excellent, quite possibly the best Pokemon in the game, to have when queueing into slow balance or semistall lacking Toxic Chansey; Rain Dance sets annihilate unprepared stall. Manaphy wins some matchups it has no business winning (eg. Ferrothorn sans Power Whip), and whenever it's seen in Team Preview your Pokemon slower than Manaphy can quickly become liabilities. But, the argument presented that you have to run Calm Mind Unaware Clefable to reliably answer it is simply untrue, and should not be used as a basis for any action against Manaphy, considering the similar resume of other setup stallbreakers, especially Nasty Plot Heal Bell Togekiss.

 

However, considering that slow balance is still the archetype of choice for many players, and that significant amounts of those same players achieve decent ladder results, Manaphy is not yet causing the polarization which would warrant a ban in my eyes. The metagame being forced to adapt is not a bad thing.

 

I really cant see how manaphy is outright bad against offense in general, taking rain into account and most offense pokemon used dont have great speed tiers and having to rely on priority to damage it, which all of it can be recovered with rest, latios, raikou, serp and weather abusers seem to me the most reliable checks to this mon and potential scarfers like togekiss or breloom, (to which togekiss has to pray for it to flinch).

 

Regarding having to use the clefable set so you deal with manaphy, that was a point i was trying to make as the poster only mentioned unaware cm clef as a means to "not lose" to manaphy, i simply pointed out that having 1 mon that can deal with x shouldnt be a reason for it to be kept in the tier, im aware there are more measures that can deal with it has aformentioned in earlier posts.

 

The thing with manaphy is that it doesnt need much deviation from its sets to be good at any MU, togekiss like you mentioned is probably the best stallbreaker there is, your only hope is to rely on air slash not flinching your mantine or that clef set with hopes of pp stalling it, but if you want a togekiss that is reliable to deal with faster/frailer teams you need to run a completely diferent set. Manaphy just runs the same thing (regarding the tg set not cm), subbing one or two moves and maybe a slightly diferent ev spread, youre getting all of these roles of a wallbreaker, stallbreaker, sweeper, and even revenge killer, if the MU is too passive, in one package, just one set is capable of all of this, i dont think any other mon on pro can do this, or at least not to the extent as manaphy.

 

I guess manaphy's presence isnt as much as i thought previously, as in this season ive yet to face one (much to my relief lol) i guess i just got a bit unlucky with the MU previously as they werent THAT uncommon before, and while slow balance might still have success ive also heard from someone that people were getting ridiculous results and win% who have no business in doing so thanks to manaphy, tho it wasnt backed up by any evidence so take that as you will. However, like ive said i dont think small usage equates in being a balanced mon.

 

As a final note, most of you probably already know by now but PRO is reworking and updating PVP, making all moves, items, abilities and megas usable, with that said once that update comes, my opinion regarding manaphy will most likely change as with the addition of megas such as lopunny, manectric, zard y, alakazam, latis and even metagross which will definitely ease up the matchup for offensive teams and increasing its checks as well, these in particular being more reliable as well. Mega gardevoir and mawile will also outclass manaphy as a primary wallbreaker (not stallbreaker) due to its immediate firepower and no need of setup. This means that continuing this thread may be pointless from here on out, at least for me, that being said i wanna thank to all the people who have partaken and given their opinions on this thread, i've learned a lot and definitely improved as a player talking to all of you, if anyone still wants to participate in this discussion then by all means do so, ill still try to be as responsive as possible for the time being.

[Idkup]

TG 3 Attacks requires heavy support to be as effective against stall as this thread would suggest, due to the existence of Toxic Chansey, which when played well shuts down standard Manaphy and (obviously) possesses much more staying power than the Manaphy. If you take the rain into account, Choice Specs Kingdra is more threatening to offense than Manaphy ever is, owing precisely to the lack of ability to revenge kill without priority. While Manaphy is fast, it doesn't outspeed almost every scarfer along with frail fastmons which anchor offense (eg. Gengar, Latios as you point out).

 

Mantine is not viable on stall (though this is a different argument), and neither is dodging a couple of Air Slash flinches going to save stall from Stallbreaker Togekiss - it carries Heal Bell and Roost. Correctly EV'd, weaker variants of Togekiss is far from a liability against offense, though owing more to its defensive utility than offensive power (like Manaphy).

 

The thing about the versatility of Tail Glow Manaphy is that you still have to choose in the teambuilder, well before Team Preview, what you want to do better against. There is no difference between 'a few changes in EVs' and 'replacing the Pokemon entirely' - what is important is the impact on matchups. For example, the choice between HP Fire, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball makes an incredibly large difference in what you are able to hit.

 

Individuals get ridiculous results with astonishing regularity. That is no grounds for banning a Pokemon entirely: they're either getting lucky in the queue or genuinely skilled. For reference, I am at an 80% winrate in tournaments with a team running 4 dragons, and at an 100% winrate in tournaments with a team unironically running Corsola.

[Baganha]

TG 3 Attacks requires heavy support to be as effective against stall as this thread would suggest, due to the existence of Toxic Chansey, which when played well shuts down standard Manaphy and (obviously) possesses much more staying power than the Manaphy. If you take the rain into account, Choice Specs Kingdra is more threatening to offense than Manaphy ever is, owing precisely to the lack of ability to revenge kill without priority. While Manaphy is fast, it doesn't outspeed almost every scarfer along with frail fastmons which anchor offense (eg. Gengar, Latios as you point out).

 

Mantine is not viable on stall (though this is a different argument), and neither is dodging a couple of Air Slash flinches going to save stall from Stallbreaker Togekiss - it carries Heal Bell and Roost. Correctly EV'd, weaker variants of Togekiss is far from a liability against offense, though owing more to its defensive utility than offensive power (like Manaphy).

 

The thing about the versatility of Tail Glow Manaphy is that you still have to choose in the teambuilder, well before Team Preview, what you want to do better against. There is no difference between 'a few changes in EVs' and 'replacing the Pokemon entirely' - what is important is the impact on matchups. For example, the choice between HP Fire, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball makes an incredibly large difference in what you are able to hit.

 

Individuals get ridiculous results with astonishing regularity. That is no grounds for banning a Pokemon entirely: they're either getting lucky in the queue or genuinely skilled. For reference, I am at an 80% winrate in tournaments with a team running 4 dragons, and at an 100% winrate in tournaments with a team unironically running Corsola.

 

I definitely understand your take on this, and empathize a lot more your pov, i guess at this point both of us will just disagree with our views in the requirements for a pokemon to be considered broken, while it cant accomplish everything with just ONE single set and doesnt excel at every single playstyle/matchup, manaphy has all the tools to be devastating for the tier and personally that is enough for me to consider it broken, having great synergy with a mon like kingdra for example who deal fantastically against offensive MU, it just a core too potent to deal with, i truly think its overwhelming.

 

While i still keep my doubts in people getting insane results with manaphy, since no evidence has been provided, i dont believe it's something it should be taken lightly (again as long as this claim is provided with sufficient evidence), a similar situation happened on smogon with baton pass and dugtrio (dugtrio stall to be exact) where a lot of the skill gap seemed to be missing and a lot people on the ladder got insane elos and gxe records, most of which werent even known, in tours dugtrio stall was spammed throughout its existence and held an insane record, even when people where expecting this matchup, they still lost and we're talking about tour players, being known to be the most competent in the game. I know its not fair comparing manaphy with bp/duggy but if it is truly affecting the rating the way its prtrayed to be, then i think it is a problem, as a competitive game should maintain a balanced skill gap.