PRO's PvP inconsistencies in regards to move/ability combinations

[Qeight]

Hey there PvP players,

 

due to PRO's constant updating, quests, availability of moves/tutors/tms and such we created unconsciously move/ability combinations that are not available in the original games and are invalid on Showdown.

A few examples of that are Unaware Clefable with Soft-Boiled, Natural Cure/Serene Grace Chansey or Blissey with Psywave or Tailglow Phione.

 

We have banned a few of these combinations but realized that things such as:

• Pikachu or Raichu with Surf & a pre-evolution move from Pichu or any egg move or its Hidden Ability, are banned from ranked play. This is due to an illegal move combination.
  [spoiler=List of banned moves in combination with Surf on Pikachu/Raichu]
  Egg moves/Breeding moves
  Wish
  Tickle
  Reversal
  Present
  Lucky Chant
  Flail
  Fake Out
  Endure
  Encore
  Electric Terrain
  Double Slap
  Disarming Voice
  Charge
  Bide
  Bestow
   
  Pre-Evolution moves
  Charm
  Sweet Kiss
  Nasty Plot

 

Are super rare cases and super confusing for some players. There are a quite a few things like that in our game and currently there is no way for us to limit them from ranked play except banning them.

Due to our poor handling in the past we created inconsistencies that we no longer want. We however are stuck on how we can fix those things, this is where we want to hear your guys opinion.

 

There are currently two approaches I can think of:

1. Ban everything, ban every combination that is not valid in a Gen7 OU Showdown team
   
2. Let capable players vote for every single scenario, this way the community has a say in it as well.
   

If you can think of a better way to handle it please let me know (PvP Council is not an option yet).

 

Looking forward to some of your guys responses.

 

Best Regards,

Qeight

[Luharrr]

There isn't and there wasn't ever a point in pro following smogon or showdown ban list because pro has its own meta, and it doesn't really make sense to use ban list from a different meta where everything is coded and available.

 

Pro should create its own tier list and ban list, according to the meta.

 

after reading this and thinking about it, i can agree that this would probably be better

Edited July 13, 2019 by LUHARRR

[Meen2]

May I know properties of "capable players"?

[Qeight]

May I know the definition of "capable players"?

Active players meaning Top25 finishes this year, in the past players could vote if they had a certain rank or were Top25 in any season, it makes no sense to let players vote who were Top25 sometime last year or even the year before that. This ensures that active players who can reach the Top ranks on the ladder.

 

This may not seem like the "best players" however they are the significant better players.

[Xarcom]

In my opinion every combination of ability-moves that's impossible to obtain in normal games should be banned as well here on PRO. We're not talking about metagames, but about game mechanics.

Unaware CLefable + Softboiled isn't banned because it's "too strong" but because in an USUM game it's IMPOSSIBLE to have an Unaware Softboiled, you shouldn't confuse these things.

[Qeight]

Pro should create its own tier list and ban list, according to the meta. moves abilitys not coded for exemple needs to be fixed 1st before creating a "ban rule".

You can´t comparate to nothing because 40% or more is not working properly.

Theres to much ban moves or abilities because the moves/abilities that counters doesnt work, or wrong coded.

 

My opinion, the pvp is already to "simple" because you need to follow the "correct things to do", and creating a "same strategy for pvp to most of the players is just wrong.

more important thing to do right now.

 

That's why i don´t feel good pvp in this game anyway, to much guys, disconecting, guys breaking the rules, etc im not the one that needs to fix that but part of the staff to create somethign to check the ban moves and etc to start a pvp match.

In my opinion every combination of ability-moves that's impossible to obtain in normal games should be banned as well here on PRO. We're not talking about metagames, but about game mechanics.

^this

 

This is not a discussion about the meta game itself or not coded things. This is a discussion about invalid things, things that are not possible to obtain.

[Gdarch]

In my opinion every combination of ability-moves that's impossible to obtain in normal games should be banned as well here on PRO. We're not talking about metagames, but about game mechanics.

 

I couldn’t say it clearer than that. It’s all about game mechanics. I’ m a huge fan of the original game from the beginning, I know by heart lots of things concerning move and abilities combinations and it’s really annoying when I do pvp ranked match to see for example a rotom wash with blizzard and the person arguing with me that he didn’t do anything wrong. I’m not a top 25 pvp player (max rating ever reached : 411) but I dont think it’s a good idea to let top 25 player decides alone since there are some of them who abused illegal combination like chansey + psywave in the past.

To conclude, I think what belongs to game mechanics should be banned according to showdown and what belongs to pro meta specificities should be voted by everybody.

[Haneroze]

I don't feel every combination that isn't possible in the original games should be banned. Gamefreak make games where each of them is supposed to feel unique. They implement new stuff each generation, but some other stuff, particularly TMs and Move Tutors, don't make it back. They are not necessarily choices for balance, but rather choices because of limitations. As thus, Showdown bans these not because they're broken, but because they want to simulate the experience of specific generations.

 

On the other hand, we're an MMORPG that aims to make everything available. We have TMs and Tutors that were only available in old generations, available to use right here in a 7th Generation environment. So why should we pretend that a specific Pokemon should be unable to learn something? If it's broken, then sure we should ban it, but if that combination ends up only being a niche, why should we ban it?

 

Elemental gems are not available in Gen 7, because they were replaced by Z-crystals. Should we ban Elemental gems then? If yes, then why are we even making them available to obtain? The only situation a gem is better than a Z-crystal is for Acrobatics, and that's not really broken.

 

Gen 8 will be unable to bring back all Pokemons. Although the choice of which Pokemon to keep was done with the apparent consideration of a better balanced PvP environment, the choice itself of not keeping the Pokemon in the files was made due to limitations that we don't have. Should we then ban half of the Pokemon when we upgrade to gen 8? That would be ridiculous, and ruin the MMORPG experience.

 

So yeah, since we're not trying to imitate the original games to the letter, it makes more sense to allow everything, and only ban what proves to be broken.

 

and it’s really annoying when I do pvp ranked match to see for example a rotom wash with blizzard

 

That, actually, shouldn't be possible even here. Rotom was designed to only be able to use the elemental move that matches its current form: when it loses its form, it also forgets that move. It's definitely something that shouldn't be allowed, and the NPC that changes Rotom's form should definitely make Rotom unable to bring other form moves eventually.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Haneroze

[Intoccabil3]

Good morning, as i mentionned in previous post, PRO has actually his own metagame. Since everything is not coded properly, things like Klefki Prankster have no counterplay in PRO and should be banned (in showdown you would switch to dark type), for eample. Each case should be consider knowing OUR metagame, 0 sense to look for others.

Best regards,

GengarLv100

Like Qeight clearly explained, this isn’t about powerful stuff or broken stuff, but rather illegal combinations. You are basing your argument on the strength of some sets, but here the discussion is about if some sets should at all be possible.

Having PRO’s own tiers would be the best thing, I agree, but I also think we should stick with the way the people who invented the game and were paid to do so for many generations intended the game to be played, instead of keeping stuff that exists out of a random chance in this particular game.

I want to stress that you repeating this stuff about uncoded and too powerful stuff IS NOT what this poll is about. Please read it again carefully

[Intoccabil3]

I don't feel every combination that isn't possible in the original games should be banned. Gamefreak make games where each of them is supposed to feel unique. They implement new stuff each generation, but some other stuff, particularly TMs and Move Tutors, don't make it back. They are not necessarily choices for balance, but rather choices because of limitations. As thus, Showdown bans these not because they're broken, but because they want to simulate the experience of specific generations.

 

On the other hand, we're an MMORPG that aims to make everything available. We have TMs and Tutors that were only available in old generations, available to use right here in a 7th Generation environment. So why should we pretend that a specific Pokemon should be unable to learn something? If it's broken, then sure we should ban it, but if that combination ends up only being a niche, why should we ban it?

 

Elemental gems are not available in Gen 7, because they were replaced by Z-crystals. Should we ban Elemental gems then? If yes, then why are we even making them available to obtain? The only situation a gem is better than a Z-crystal is for Acrobatics, and that's not really broken.

 

Gen 8 will be unable to bring back all Pokemons. Although the choice of which Pokemon to keep was done with the apparent consideration of a better balanced PvP environment, the choice itself of not keeping the Pokemon in the files was made due to limitations that we don't have. Should we then ban half of the Pokemon when we upgrade to gen 8? That would be ridiculous, and ruin the MMORPG experience.

 

So yeah, since we're not trying to imitate the original games to the letter, it makes more sense to allow everything, and only ban what proves to be broken.

I feel like you are only considering things in the short distance. First of all many pokes still have to be implemented from the previous generations, and whole regions too. If everything was allowed togheter with the new stuff sure, it’d be a more diverse game, but the new stuff they implement will be designed with the “gone stuff being gone” idea. Maybe things turn out fine with gen 8, but what about in 2/3 gens from now? How many illegal and broken combinations will this bring in time, and how much work will this bring to the deve who already have their hands more than full?

This doesn’t mean old stuff has to be erased, no one said that, this is only about “invalid” combinations.

Also even if gems were to be substituted by z crystals once they get released, you can still use gems in the rest of the game and not in PvP. It’s not the end of the world