PVP Feedback - Baton Pass

[Gleipnirkurea]

As someone who was initially leaning toward a blanket Baton Pass ban, I decided to keep an open mind and listen to both sides, and I must admit that the anti-ban side has provided more convincing arguments than the pro-ban side thus far. There is a lot of misinformation going on and I think that some good points have been made and should be acknowledged. It is unfortunate that I only started PvPing again in PRO while Baton Pass is banned, so I had to do a lot of research to try to make up for my lack of in-game experience with the move/playstyle, although I ran into it a lot on Showdown.

 

 

This is simply not true. Baton Pass is currently banned in ORAS OU and USUM OU and is even banned in many lower tiers. More and more tiers and previous generations are suspect testing Baton Pass. In 2019, USUM LC banned Baton Pass. It must also be said that banning or suspect testing Baton Pass in older generations, such as ADV OU and DPP OU, usually does not involve banning Baton Pass as a whole, but rather further restricting the currently implemented clauses. BW OU seems to be against a full ban of the move, although that thread and this one both show that the BW OU council may have acted against what the majority of players think by trying to impose the Shadow Tag ban, deeming trapping uncompetitive yet failing to explain why Magnet Pull has not been addressed in the BW OU metagame where it is arguably more problematic and certainly more common than Gothitelle. PRO does have some Gen 7 mechanics, but it is still weirdly trying to balance itself out between Gen 5 and Gen 6. I think that ORAS OU is the closest Smogon comparison, although I think that such comparisons can be dangerous sometimes. Pokémon Revolution Online is not Showdown and does not have to blindly follow Smogon's rules. In ORAS OU, Baton Pass underwent a lot of changes: it was first restricted to 3 Baton Pass users, but problems kept arising, so it was then narrowed down to 1 Baton Pass user, which was still not enough to prevent newer issues; the complex Baton Pass clause in its final form ultimately stated that there can only be 1 Baton Pass user that cannot pass speed with other stats. So many complex clauses were put in place to attempt to preserve a playstyle that became problematic whenever it picked up in usage. Yet again, Baton Pass teams managed to remain an issue because they always found a way to circumvent the implemented restrictions. NJNP used Lansat Berry Scolipede with Scope Lens Sniper Kingdra to prove why Baton Pass is inherently broken and will always be abused to get easy wins. You can be the judges: NJNP's 1st replay, NJNP's 2nd replay, and NJNP's 3rd replay. Yes, PRO does not have Substitute, which is a big component of Baton Pass. Yes, there are several issues hindering its efficiency. However, who is to say that someone will not find an intricate way to abuse Baton Pass in its current format? How long will we have to wait until someone finally breaks Baton Pass, thus causing even more outrage? If someone manages to find a way to do that in the future, it will actually be proof that Baton Pass is currently ban-worthy. I am not going to discuss the other part of the message I quoted because being able to use Mega Rayquaza against Mega Rayquaza (and other examples are endless) is evidently no proof that Mega Rayquaza can be healthy in PvP. If something is deemed ban-worthy (meaning either broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive), we should not be inciting players to use it as a countermeasure.

 

So, is Baton Pass broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive? Well, this thread is an interesting read, although it mostly pertains to Smogon. I will summarize its main points for you, but please feel free to check it out. Smogon/Showdown uses skill as the main way to gauge someone's worth in competitive Pokémon. Yes, funnily enough, Pokémon happens to be one of the least competitive games due to all the luck- and RNG-based interactions. However, that is not an excuse for not trying to maximize skill-reliant match-ups and minimize skill-less mechanics as much as possible. As such, there are clauses regarding evasion, sleep, and whatnot. There are also Pokémon and ability bans. What is the definition of uncompetitive? Based on that thread, uncompetitive elements "reduce the effect of player choice/interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant." We then have some examples of uncompetitive features: "This can be match-up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match-up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough." What about broken then? Broken elements "are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant," but we also have the important following note in bold characters: "While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter/check component." Yes, an uncompetitive component of PvP does not have to be broken to warrant a ban. And what does unhealthy mean? Unhealthy elements "are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit 'skillful play' to a large extent." It is important to understand that these words are not mutually exclusive, yet not necessarily interchangeable. Something deemed ban-worthy can be uncompetitive and broken, but it only needs to satisfy one of those definitions. What makes Baton Pass inherently uncompetitive? When players discussed this on Smogon (cf. this thread), they did not mention any specific Pokémon (e.g., Manaphy), but allow me to share some of their thoughts:

 

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Out of fairness, I included the last statement, which is more moderate and does not deem all of Baton Pass to be uncompetitive. However, as proven in ORAS OU, Baton Pass as a whole was still considered to be uncompetitive, which ultimately led to its ban in 2018:

 

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The main culprit? Scolipede. Why not just ban Scolipede? Well, because there is no point in preserving a move that has to be almost restricted to nothingness to keep being used! It already is a shadow of its former self! Some people even suggested preserving DryPass (using Baton Pass without passing any stats, simply to switch out, sometimes also to avoid Pursuit). Why should we bother with an inherently uncompetitive feature of the game? If Scolipede were to be banned, someone might find another Baton Pass (ab)user. I said might, not will. Who knows? The move is uncompetitive by nature, so it will remain problematic as long as it is allowed. Here is an interesting Reddit thread explaining why Baton Pass is uncompetitive:

 

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I will mostly talk about Speed Boost Scolipede, which seems to be the most commonly used Baton Pass user. Baton Pass in PRO surely uses Pokémon that all teams should naturally be prepared for regardless, right? To an extent, yes, but let's keep in mind that preparing for Manaphy is not the same as preparing for +1 Manaphy, which then outspeeds and KOs anything that would otherwise be able to outspeed it and check it (e.g., Serperior). Defensively, you might think that this does not make a difference at all, but it definitely does. If someone is running Ferrothorn on a Manaphy-weak team, there are good chances that it is running Power Whip to be able to beat Manaphy. This puts the Baton Pass user in an advantageous situation from the get-go, as they will be able to play around that and potentially guess Ferrothorn's coverage and switch-ins. This also puts incredible pressure on the player facing the Baton Pass team, because they know that the Baton Pass player should know that Ferrothorn most likely carries Power Whip. If the Baton Pass player switches out to a Fighting-type or something that can deal with Ferrothorn expecting it to switch into Manaphy, the other player can predict that and ultimately not go to Ferrothorn. But what if the Baton Pass player decides to Tail Glow instead of switching out? Then the other player is now against a speedy Manaphy with a Tail Glow buff and Ferrothorn has to switch into it and take 2 hits instead of 1. Skill can thus easily be taken out of the equation. Should that player have gone to Ferrothorn first regardless? Well, in that case, they would have lost momentum had the Baton Pass player chosen to double switch to another Pokémon. Why didn't Ferrothorn switch into Scolipede on the turn Manaphy was expected to receive the Speed boost? But what if another Pokémon was given that boost? What then? If Ferrothorn switches into Manaphy, the Baton Pass player has more freedom to switch out than his opponent getting caught in the unfavorable situation of switching Ferrothorn into a Fighting-type. Baton Pass might not lose right away because of a misprediction, while the team facing Baton Pass will get behind and have fewer chances, if any at all, to recover against a Baton Pass team constantly pressuring the opponent into potentially making another mistake. Can't Ferrothorn kill Manaphy anyway? Well, that is assuming that Manaphy will not switch out and already took sufficient prior damage to put it in range of Power Whip, which does not OHKO it. Manaphy might also be running a bulkier spread than usual, thus ensuring that it can somewhat comfortably survive Power Whip. And can't something else revenge kill Manaphy if Ferrothorn dies? That is assuming that you have something faster than +1 Manaphy that also happens to be able to do enough damage to kill it. Choice Band Dragonite's Extreme Speed does an impressive 50% at best to uninvested Manaphy. Shouldn't all teams have a secondary check to something as prevalent and strong as Manaphy? Possibly, yes, but it might now be slower than +1 Manaphy. Why is Manaphy being used as an example? Simply because everyone keeps talking about it pushing Baton Pass over the edge. Why don't people use stall (and more specifically Unaware Calm Mind Clefable) to beat a speedy and bulky Manaphy? Because they might not want to and, rightfully so, should have more than a few options to choose from. Why don't people start to specifically prepare for Baton Pass teams or at least the most commonly used Baton Pass Pokémon, which also happen to be good on their own? Because those Pokémon have fewer (most notably offensive) checks if they receive a Speed boost and, as such, their typical checks might no longer be able to properly deal with them. I mentioned Serperior for Manaphy earlier, but there are other offensive countermeasures, which can be popular or unpopular, such as Choice Scarf Magnezone, Raikou, and even Gengar. Should people start putting a Choice Scarf on Gengar because it is not a bad option against non-Baton Pass teams and can still better the team's match-up against Baton Pass teams? Should they also use 1, 2, or even 3 priority users to ensure that Speed boost recipients can be properly revenge killed? Doesn't Quiver Dance Volcarona freely set up against Speed Boost Scolipede and still outspeed all Baton Pass recipients? Having to run specific Pokémon, abilities, moves, or items to counter something as uncommon as Baton Pass is not exactly the sign of a healthy metagame. Doing so might (and most likely will) put you at a disadvantage against more common playstyles. Even then, you still won't get an automatic win against that one Baton Pass team that you might go against every once in a while. My opinion does not change when it comes to other inherently uncompetitive features. Do I think that having to run Shed Shell on a Pokémon that benefits from other options is uncompetitive? Yes, I do. Do I think that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive? Yes. Do I think that being able to set up on Magnezone once it has killed something makes this less uncompetitive? No, we were also able to use set-up moves against Dugtrio and Gothitelle. That did not make them less broken. Do I think that Magnezone trapping fewer Pokémon than Dugtrio and Gothitelle makes it less uncompetitive? Absolutely not! Smogon banned Gothita, Diglett, and Trapinch by banning Arena Trap as a whole. Those Pokémon trapped virtually nothing of relevance in comparison to Magnezone. Do I think that Serene Grace is uncompetitive? Yes, even though there are only 2 viable users of the move in PvP (Togekiss and Jirachi). Do I think that King's Rock is uncompetitive? Yes. Why hasn't Smogon done anything about any of that then? I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. Cloyster's King's Rock set has been gaining traction. I know that many people on Smogon suggested banning King's Rock and Magnezone in the past. Usually, no action is taken unless something gains a lot of popularity and becomes a bigger issue in high elo and/or in tournaments. This happened with Baton Pass every single time until it was eventually banned altogether. Will players surprise their opponents by using Baton Pass in PRO's Showdown tours? Why not? It is certainly more efficient and less dysfunctional on Showdown. Why don't we wait until Substitute is coded or more powerful abusers are added or found? Essentially, this means that we should wait for Baton Pass' inherent uncompetitiveness to emerge in a blatantly undeniable fashion. Baton Pass will then still be the same; it will just be able to be used in conjunction with new tools that are undeniably problematic. Is it too soon to discuss banning Baton Pass? Well, not really, because administrators brought up this issue and, as such, it deserves to be discussed. Does banning the move have to be the inevitable outcome? No. We are not Smogon. PRO is not Showdown. Not only do we not have to ban Baton Pass now, but we also don't have to ban it later. Yes, we are using Showdown for many tours, but we are using a format that allows anything to be tailored according to PRO's rules! Is Baton Pass currently broken? No. Is it currently unhealthy? No. Can it become broken or unhealthy? Yes, in the future. Is it inherently uncompetitive? Absolutely. It can still be brought against players in ladder tournaments just to unsettle them in an attempt to unexpectedly get an easy/free win against them with a playstyle that they probably never specifically prepare for and should not have to prepare for in the first place. And no, good teams should not naturally be built to handle Baton Pass teams; they should be able to deal with relevant and more common playstyles instead. The issue here is that Baton Pass teams do not just constitute a cheese strategy. They are serious teams that are capable of consistently winning matches on their own, and not just because of the surprise factor. Let's maybe refocus on discussing banning Baton Pass from PRO's Showdown tournaments.

 

 

 

How can a move not be OU? Scolipede might not have sufficient usage to be OU, but it was UUBL in both ORAS and USUM, meaning it was also not OU by usage. That did not stop Smogon from banning Baton Pass. Something can have low usage and still be deemed ban-worthy. Shadow Tag Gothitelle was also UUBL in Gen 5... until it got banned. Do the people who use Baton Pass always win every game with ease? Of course not. Do those same people still auto-win some games because of favorable match-ups? Yes! Does Baton Pass allow teams to have more favorable match-ups than other playstyles? I believe so, mainly due to how unprepared teams are to face Baton Pass. Do I prepare for Baton Pass teams when I build teams? Never! Should I? Maybe, but I should not have to! How do you prepare for the combination of King's Rock Cloyster, Serene Grace Togekiss, and Serene Grace Jirachi? Can you even prepare for something uncompetitive that attempts to make the match as skill-less as possible in order to let luck and RNG decide its outcome? Is Baton Pass really skill-less? Baton Pass players can still play really well and make smart plays, but can also sometimes Baton Pass once to a Pokémon and automatically win from the get-go because Baton Pass teams can patch up one of the weaknesses of top-tier threats like Manaphy and Togekiss. Do Baton Pass teams manage to 6-0 frequently? No, but the fact that they can do so while also circumventing some of the Baton Pass recipients' usual checks proves that the move is uncompetitive by nature. Moreover, I certainly don't think that any playstyle or move should be kept for the sake of diversity just to preserve less than 5% of teams.

 

 

 

If we followed Smogon's tiering policy before Baton Pass ever became an issue in PRO, why are we not following through on all aspects of Smogon's Baton Pass ban? Everyone knew all along that PRO had different mechanics than Showdown. The biggest, in this case, is the lack of Substitute. There are also other differences. Yet, I don't recall people disagreeing with the implementation of the complex clause that Smogon had in place (only having a single Baton Pass user not being able to Baton Pass speed and other stats). If we chose to copy Smogon's rules, why did we not follow through? Is it because we should have never tried to replicate what Smogon did and, instead, let PRO be its own independent game? A bit too late for that now.

 

 

 

Sorry to cherry-pick this part of your good post. Yes, Togekiss relies on flinches, but it also has a manageable speed tier. Would Togekiss become unbearable if it had 350 speed? I think so. And Baton Pass just happens to be able to patch up its poor speed, thus lowering the number of its usual checks, which would otherwise outspeed it and KO it. Togekiss also has respectable bulk, especially if it can run a more defensive set thanks to potentially receiving a Speed buff. This means that it can also set up Nasty Plot and accentuate the uncompetitive nature of Serene Grace flinches by doing a lot of damage and being harder to revenge kill. Being able to win games thanks to flinches is arguably uncompetitive, but something can usually outspeed Togekiss and force it out, thus perhaps recovering momentum and still having some sort of say in the outcome of the match. A speedy, bulky Togekiss can sometimes sweep an entire team if it relies on flinches while also being faster than everything else. Failing to flinch once will most likely not result in Togekiss' death, so it can just resume being uncompetitive afterward. The replay that you posted is very interesting because it shows how good players have adapted to the lack of Substitute. I am not saying that Scolipede does not need Substitute; I just think that running two coverage options instead of one actually worked in your favor in that specific match-up, although you also outplayed your opponent (particularly toward the end). I must, however, comment that, while coupling Baton Pass with Aurora Veil is an original idea, it remains an attempt to exacerbate Baton Pass' inherent uncompetitiveness by circumventing more of its recipients' weaknesses and abusing all available tools (in this case, Aurora Veil) to ensure Baton Pass' maximum efficiency. This is not to say that the combination of Baton Pass and Aurora Veil necessarily pushes Baton Pass over the edge. It is simply yet another attempt to break the playstyle (by merging it with another potentially problematic one). Eventually, someone might succeed in doing so.

 

 

 

I actually somewhat disagree with this. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Speed passing is the primary culprit as of right now. However, why should we further restrict an already complex enough clause? There have already been several restrictions and clauses on Smogon. Every single time, people thought that Baton Pass would never become a problem again. They were wrong! Someone somehow managed to abuse its inherently uncompetitive nature in spite of the increasingly complex bans. If we ban Speed passing, we should ban Baton Pass altogether instead of trying to preserve some niche, irrelevant strategies that no one currently uses and that someone might eventually figure out a way to abuse. What then? Are we going to move from clause #4 to clause #5? Are people ultimately going to ask for Baton Pass to be kept just for DryPass' sake? This is unprecedented! This is a move! We are trying to alter Baton Pass' inherent properties. Either keep it or remove it altogether. Let's not make the same mistake as Smogon by introducing even more unnecessary, complex bans.

 

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Ditto should never be anyone's primary countermeasure. Why? Because high Ditto usage is indicative of an unhealthy metagame, which people noticed in SS OU prior to the Dynamax ban.

 

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Baton Pass is currently banned in ORAS OU. It was banned in retrospect because it was still deemed uncompetitive in spite of the Magearna-less and Necrozma-less Gen 6 OU environment and Gale Wings did not get nerfed until Gen 7.

 

 

 

Arena Trap was eventually banned and Baton Pass was never reconsidered for a re-test. The fact that Baton Pass was banned before Arena Trap speaks volumes about Baton Pass' uncompetitive nature. The council determined that the immediate issue was Baton Pass, not Arena Trap. The former was quick banned, while the latter was suspect tested a few months later. In ORAS OU, Baton Pass was banned after Arena Trap, which proves that it managed to remain an issue despite not being able to abuse Dugtrio any longer. The lack of Substitute definitely has to be taken into consideration, but I thought I would comment on the Arena Trap part. I actually agree with many points that you made. Serene Grace Togekiss is inherently uncompetitive, but so is Magnet Pull Magnezone. You may generate as much pressure as you want against them, they will do whatever they can to ensure that the outcome of the game is in RNG's hands. You can play extremely carefully against Magnezone, yet somehow still get trapped if you misplay or mispredict (or even if your opponent misplays and gets you to misplay as a result). You can also be patient and careful against Dugtrio and Gothitelle or run Shed Shell to prevent being trapped. Using Choice Scarf Togekiss has no justification other than wanting to outspeed and flinch down checks to slower variants. Even without Choice Scarf, Serene Grace Togekiss remains uncompetitive and, as such, will logically find itself being used on other uncompetitive playstyles (namely Baton Pass) in an attempt to harness their full uncompetitive potential.

 

I just want everyone to keep an open mind. I certainly could have said a lot about why Baton Pass can be kept for now if we really insist on delaying the inevitable, but others already made brilliant statements regarding that. Maybe I am wrong, but maybe you are, too. Let's all listen to opposing arguments instead of shrugging them off before giving them a chance. Then, we will have a healthy discussion instead of a heated debate.

 

Ah, here it is I asked about why baton pass was bannable being me returning two days ago, thanks ^_^

 

When you put it that way, I do agree with the points you're saying but, I'm still rather clueless in and about PvP other than sleep clause, and now this :) explained in detail to have someone without much PvP knowledge to understand how things worked with Showdown and PRO mechanics and not having Substitute.. :/ (I really want Substitute coded for my Wallrein)

[Vithu96]

It was a great idea to ban it.

[Debeast]

Baton pass should stay banned. SImply put it is banned in showdown gen 7 ou (which is probably the closest to PRO's pokemon pool) and they even have it banned. It also creates a poor experience for all players involved. Do we really want bold toge faster than eveything? Baton Pass overall worsens the meta game.

[Gleipnirkurea]

Baton pass should stay banned. SImply put it is banned in showdown gen 7 ou (which is probably the closest to PRO's pokemon pool) and they even have it banned. It also creates a poor experience for all players involved. Do we really want bold toge faster than eveything? Baton Pass overall worsens the meta game.

 

Same for most legendary and mega evolution pokèmon.

[Taurus2907]

Yes I agree baton pass must be banned in PvP...I have seen many people using gliscor swords dance to buff high speed Pokemon like jolly garchomp and sweep out everything...it can't be called a fair match at all..even giving a good amount of speed to heavy hitters like rhyperior using scolipede speed boost will finish everything before start..they will have no weakness at all..it will be like a dictator ruling eveything...hence I request baton pass be banned

Thanks.

[Boghald]

I think you all might be right or wrong (depends on each one opinion) up to a point. Most of you are considering only the typical Baton Pass use: boost a party member. But you forget that Baton Pass is the only way to escape from a Pursuit Trapper without taking damage (if we are faster than the trapper). So banning Baton Pass would also affect (and worsen) those teams which needs Baton Pass to switch out safely their pokes, without passing any stat changes.

 

So, in case Baton Pass become forever a Banned Move, in my humble opinion only Boosting Baton Pass should be banned, letting people the option of using Baton Pass just as a saving move.