2 hours ago, Lugario said:

Hello again,

after reading some of the additional replies, I think there is still some misunderstanding about the suggestion.

Some of the replies are listing existing strategies that can be used to beat the current Bosses without Baton Pass.

I am not saying that those strategies do not exist.

However, that is not really what my suggestion is about.

The suggestion is about a Boss rework.

The idea is not: "Remove Baton Pass and leave the current Bosses exactly as they are."

The idea is to change how Boss Battles are designed in the first place.

One of the biggest things I mentioned is the current stat inflation. On Hard Mode, Boss Pokemon can have 400 EVs in every stat. That is 2400 EVs across six stats, while a normal player Pokemon is limited to 510 total EVs.

So yes, there are different ways to overcome the current system. But my question is why the Boss Battles need to be designed around such extreme stat differences in the first place.

Instead, I would like Bosses to have more interesting and intelligent team designs and AI, while being balanced so that they are still beatable with properly built teams.

For example, one Boss could use Weather, another Trick Room, another Stall, and another could use a completely different strategy or combination of Pokemon, abilities and moves.

The important part is that the player should have to understand what that Boss is trying to do and adapt to it.

That is very different from simply finding the most efficient way to overcome the inflated stats.

This is also why I don't think replies such as "there are other strategies besides Baton Pass" really address the suggestion. Of course there are other strategies. The question is whether the current Boss design creates the kind of gameplay that we want to keep in the long term.

And regarding the question about whether I have personally tried every other Boss strategy: please don't assume something simply because I did not answer. Not receiving an answer to a question does not prove the assumption is correct or wrong. I choose to answer specific questions, depending on whether they are relevant or not and what I think about them.

Regarding the argument that Bosses are mainly about making money, I understand that Bosses are an important source of weekly income for players. I am not suggesting that should disappear. But I also don't think Boss Battles should be treated only as a way of collecting money as quickly and efficiently as possible.

It is still game content. We should also be able to actually enjoy playing that content.

Spending a little more time on a Boss because the battle is interesting, requires some thought, and uses different strategies does not automatically mean that players will no longer have their weekly income. The rewards still exist. The gameplay around those rewards can simply become more engaging.

I also agree with Divinegold that a change like this would not have to happen overnight.

There is no reason to suddenly rework every Boss at once and force everyone to rebuild their teams immediately. It could be done gradually. A few Bosses could be reworked first, the system could be tested, feedback could be collected, and then more Bosses could be changed over time.

The newer Pokemon added through the Spawn Reworks also give the game many more possibilities for designing different Boss teams and strategies.

And looking at the long-term direction that has been discussed for PRO, where more of the mechanics/gimmicks from the original handheld games are intended to eventually be included in the game, it also makes sense to me that Boss Battles evolve alongside the rest of the game. There are many mechanics that could eventually be incorporated into Boss design to make the encounters more interesting.

I think it is important to look beyond our own current teams and current income and think about the long-term health and gameplay of the game as a whole.

Keeping the current system is obviously easier and more convenient for people who are already used to it. But sometimes improving a game means changing something that people have become comfortable with.

I am not saying that my idea is correct or perfect. That is why a suggestion thread exists in the first place, to discuss ideas and improve them. Some people may disagree with the direction completely, and that is absolutely fine. People are allowed to have different opinions.

I did not expect this suggestion to get this much attention or this many replies.

Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to discuss it, whether you agree or disagree.

Kind regards,
Lugario

This is a boss bro it will not have the same stats as normal, if you want interesting stuff do pvp or dungeons or other pve stuff

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

The idea is to change how Boss Battles are designed in the first place.

Well, since you are not giving ANY idea of how to rework the bosses, ppl mostly focus on the one part you are actually describing - the Baton Pass removal.

Your entire boss rework is:
- make them easier by removing the 400EVs in every stats and only give them 510 in total.
- make their teams very clear and easy to counter, due to themes

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

One of the biggest things I mentioned is the current stat inflation. On Hard Mode, Boss Pokemon can have 400 EVs in every stat. That is 2400 EVs across six stats, while a normal player Pokemon is limited to 510 total EVs.

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

But my question is why the Boss Battles need to be designed around such extreme stat differences in the first place.

Exactly, that's the idea of a clearly harder boss fight. It is a very normal MMO way to make certain content harder to clear. I'm not sure if you have played other MMOs in the past, so I'm not blaming you for maybe not knowing this, but it happens in every single MMO.
Just for the fact that you can usually add/change other stuff in most MMOs. Pokemon simply doesn't have a lot to work around with.
You either boost the stats (as in EVs or base stats) or you add restrictions to the fights.
There are no mechanics you have to play within a battle etc.

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

For example, one Boss could use Weather, another Trick Room, another Stall, and another could use a completely different strategy or combination of Pokemon, abilities and moves.

The important part is that the player should have to understand what that Boss is trying to do and adapt to it.

That is very different from simply finding the most efficient way to overcome the inflated stats.

Well no, it will end up exactly the same. People will figure out the best strat for every single boss and will keep using this team over and over again. Your entire suggestions is full of flaws. Your entire suggestion creates more issues while not fixing what you are trying to fix.
If you remove the 400EVs difficulty of the bosses players won't need to fear crits anymore and will just freely setup on the boss and sweep without Baton Pass. Given the bosses will only have 510 EVs they will be like paper and hit like a wet noodle.

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

This is also why I don't think replies such as "there are other strategies besides Baton Pass" really address the suggestion. Of course there are other strategies. The question is whether the current Boss design creates the kind of gameplay that we want to keep in the long term.

I'm sorry but this is just nonsense. Your entire reason is because you want to not just use the same team over and over again. So ppl bring up the fact that you can run a ton of other strategies for the current boss system and you then reply with this.
I genuinely don't know how you want to play boss fights but you will need a strat prepared. You can't just slap 6 random pkmn on a team and expect to win.
The current system gives more than just 1 option. You simply need to actually do bosses and figure out the teams. (Given you haven't done bosses the last 2 weeks I'm not sure how often you even do bosses.)

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

And regarding the question about whether I have personally tried every other Boss strategy: please don't assume something simply because I did not answer.

I asked because you want more than just 1 strat being run for bosses. Apparently you didn't answer because it wasn't important for the topic even tho it's literally one of your main points? And now it's suddenly an issue because ppl assumed you haven't tried other strats?
Just a lot of hot air.

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

But I also don't think Boss Battles should be treated only as a way of collecting money as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Well, that's exactly what they are? People also don't want to waste 2h for a dungeon run when they can finish the run for the exact same rewards within 15min.
Some people work, may not have 6h a day to play PRO. Maybe they just play 1-2h a day. Wasting half your week just for doing bosses for some income doesn't really sound player friendly, does it? So obviously ppl will optimize and find the most quick and efficient way of fighting bosses.
If you wish to spend 15min per boss fight then that's totally fine, you do you. You can easily go with different strats with the current boss team and waste some good amount of time for the same rewards as the ppl who run 2-4min Baton Pass teams.

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

It is still game content. We should also be able to actually enjoy playing that content.

You can? There are ton of different strats you can clear the current bosses with. You are not forced to run the Baton Pass team.
There are more than enough Pkmn in the game to run multiple different strats.

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

And looking at the long-term direction that has been discussed for PRO, where more of the mechanics/gimmicks from the original handheld games are intended to eventually be included in the game, it also makes sense to me that Boss Battles evolve alongside the rest of the game

You might need to understand that PRO still is a MMO. Handheld mechanics/gimmicks sure, but some simply do not work within PRO.
And sorry to say but not a single handheld game has an extremely difficult fight UNLESS you purposely restrict yourself.

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

There are many mechanics that could eventually be incorporated into Boss design to make the encounters more interesting.

Which ones? Feel free to give any example on how you want to incorporate a mechanic within a Boss fight. I'm genuinely curious.

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

I think it is important to look beyond our own current teams and current income and think about the long-term health and gameplay of the game as a whole.

That's the funny part. Your suggestion isn't making the entire boss system healthier.
All you do is:
- raise the entry level for new players way too high by having the need of 40+ good pkmn to even be able to farm some bosses if you add a ton of restrictions.
- make the bosses even easier due to not having 400EVs in every stat and therefore not hitting hard/getting nuked by every 2nd pkmn

7 hours ago, Lugario said:

But sometimes improving a game means changing something that people have become comfortable with.

You are not improving anything. You are creating more issues while not fixing the "issue" you are trying to fix.


Your entire idea has flaws from the beginning til end. You are not really making any good arguments as of why your system would be better or more healthier. You are not fixing any of the issues while simply creating more.
You wish the themes to be more creative and the AI to be more intelligent - how exactly do you want the AI to be smarter there?
You are ignoring very clear flaws within your suggestion and then wonder why ppl react the way they do.
Your entire suggestion isn't about making the game healthier, it's about how you would like to play the game, ignoring the health of the game and literally every single new player.

I'll gladly dicuss more about the entire suggestion with you but please bring up any actual improvement/idea of an improvement and not just
"give bosses a theme" (which a lot of bosses actually have alrdy)
or "make AI smarter"

Cheers ~

Edited 2 hours ago2 hr by Callmerengod