PvP Viability Thread

[Mexicannoob]

Nice

[Lokesh17]

Nice concept

[Prodex]

If blissey has ice beam, dugtrio is nothing, you can use 1 sei and 1 ice beam (dugtrio will use screen 2 times), so dugtrio can't counter blissey anymore.

[Lezarth]

Very nice work, but i am really shocked to not se Latias in this list?? i mean i check her stats and move pool, and i find it really hard to undertand how she did not even make it to C+ tier??

[Specterito]

Diggersby not here

WTF

[Bash]

A- is fine for this mon. It can beat all of those mons mentioned above in a 1v1 situation but it is definitely not a counter to most of them. In order for a mon to be considered a counter, "it must be able to manually switch into the mon and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." So I think what you mean't to say is "It is a very good check...."

 

But regardless, Lucario's speed tier and sub par defensive stats are what prevent it from being S or even A+. After a +2 boost it does clean up a lot of games but getting the boost is the issue. It also suffers from four-moveslot syndrome because of its only viable set consisting of irreplaceable moves in Swords Dance, Extreme Speed, and Close Combat. It also can't make use of its ability due to, once again, its sub par defensive stats. There are also other mons that can clean up games just as good, if not, better than Lucario such as Dragonite.

 

Don't get me wrong though, Lucario is a great mon. It just doesn't fit in any ranking higher than A- imo.

 

Thanks for your opinion, depending on what you said about counter and check, I have choosen the wrong word but still, for me is Lucario a better check or counter killer in many situationes. Not against fast pokes but against those often occuring slower, bulky Pokes and tanks. You can 1 shot the most of them or do at least some mentionable dmg on the switch. Weavile, a A+ sweeper, is weak against super common meta Pokemon like Skarmory, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Scizor's Bullet Punch and Azumarill's Aqua Jet (Pokes mentioned in Weaviles text), Lucario not (Or not always). While Weavile is kinda easy to tank will Lucario mostly do some dmg against the switch. It always depends which team you are playing but in a more bulky and sometimes stally meta, Lucario seems for me to be a better option as it Weavile is.

[Theakalli]

Very nice work, but i am really shocked to not se Latias in this list?? i mean i check her stats and move pool, and i find it really hard to undertand how she did not even make it to C+ tier??

Yeah that's true Latias should be in this list,not highly ranked though.Healing wish not being in the game makes latias completely worthless and there's really no point to use that mon over latios.

[Dawtz]

Could we add mantine an amazing special wall/defogger with the sun and moon update on its hp its quite viable and reuniclus very similar to clefable except different typing to the list (although infinitely harder to get an epic one). I dont care what rank they get as long as theyre somewhere on the list, since rank can always move as time goes by.

 

 

Also I wouldn't mind moving breloom up one on the list.

[Ebereur]

Name: Toxicroak

 

Current tier: None?

 

Desired tier A-

 

Reasons:

 

-Can counter many poke in the meta (blissey with low kick/ brice break ; ferro same moove ; tangrowth poison jab; togekiss (if not scarf ) poison jab ; gengar suker punch ; tyranitar low kick ; azumarill poison jab ; clefable same ; slowbro suker punch (can take his scald and psychok easy too) ect ect

-Can take( with ability dry skin) all water moove without damage for exemple aqua jet from azu or scald from milotic (even you still can get burn, need to be fix)

-Great speed and decent atk (need to be jolly imo)

-Moove set very nice in this meta, need to be swords dance poison jab, low kick, suker punch

 

Inconveniants:

 

-Need one swords dance to work very well

-defensive stats pretty bad

-Can get completly wall by some pokes like skarmory

- Weak to Mach punch priority moove

 

I probably forgot some good and and bad points feel free to complete

Edited May 22, 2018 by ebereur

[Brauvo]

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Name: Togekiss

 

Current Tier: S

 

Desired Tier: A+

 

Reason:

Whether in its Stallbreaker, Wallbreaker, or Choice Scarf set, Togekiss is definitely a meta-defining pokemon. Truly ubiquitous. If you were to fight 5 opponents, 4 likely use one. But the prevalence of some of its counters makes this pokemon not so difficult to plan around. The rationale behind my desire to move it down a tier is, there exist counters for togekiss that can reliably handle it in either of the more commonly used sets and force it out.

Chansey/Blissey: These pokemon are on nearly every team and absolutely wall togekiss, usually attempting to toxic as soon as they switch in (if not a choice kiss) or stall (if choice locked). Togekiss would switch - even if it had aura sphere. Attempting to flinch such bulky pokemon while toxic'd isn't advisable, and many people have tried this to no avail at some point in their PVP career. These pokemon aren't hard to obtain, and have much utility outside of countering togekiss. They aren't some niche counter. They're everywhere, and they're a problem for any togekiss set.

Heatran: Offensive heatran 2 hits the usual togekiss sets and only fears aura sphere. Togekiss often doesn't want to be locked into that move, and wouldn't use it on the switch unless it was sure Heatran was coming, giving the opponent the advantage. No other moves from Togekiss scare heatran, and momentum often goes goes to the opponent in this matchup. Worse of all, Offensive Heatran often has a choice scarf itself, and has a very close speed to that of Togekiss (77 vs 80 base), meaning only the choice scarf togekiss would outpace it.

Magnezone: Similar to heatran, magnezone heavily damages togekiss, but must watch out if flamethrower or aura sphere would be used. Either way, the opponent is forcing you to predict according to their whims, leaving you easily baitable. If choice locked, Togekiss is taken advantage of with the threat of Magnezone. If not, Togekiss isn't fast enough to stop Magnezone, which commonly is scarfed. It risks the low chance of getting OHKO'd, as well, and steel/electric moves magnezone might use aren't too bad getting trapped into. Magnezone is more of a check than a counter like the above, but it's so common that it's worth mentioning.

Assault Vest Users: While less common than the above, any non-fighting type using an assault vest can switch in on Togekiss and scare it. While they're usually not fast, Togekiss ususally isn't hitting them hard enough to avoid taking a hit back. Consider the common choice scarf set vs the common assault vest goodra set. If predicting the switch correctly, you get

 

252 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%)

 

meaning it'll take 4 hits to beat a pokemon with a super effective move. As you won't get those 4 hits, you have to switch. Assault vest Goodra isn't something you want to regularly switch on, either, as its movepool is expansive. It knows you need to switch, so it puts you in an awkard place. Additionally, Togekiss is likely in your core as a defensive dragon counter, meaning the average team is suddenly in a disadvantage. That doesn't sound like the type of situation an S ranked pokemon would put you in. Also, only the choice sets have the move versitility to deal with assault vest or specially defensive pokemon in general, making a large portion of the meta a counter. Everyone knows this, and everyone has this planned in their team anyway as that works for many other pokemon too.

 

In conclusion, what team doesn't run a specially defensive wall or a steel type? Choice togekiss doesn't want to play that game and get forced out. Clefable, the other S ranked pokemon, isn't forced out nearly as easily as togekiss.

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I really like the work put into the rankings. Seems pretty accurate. Good job. I just want to mention, Snorlax has a very viable Choice Band set. May be worth mentioning in its analysis. It is also an effective user of facade on any set, as status setting walls are ubiquitous in this meta. Facade from a snorlax gets the STAB boost as well, turning that 70 power move into a potentially 210 power move. At +1 (from curse or choice band), snorlax 2hits physically defensive mandibuzz with facade.