Expendable99

Azumarill - A Azu hits really hard with a band and is definitely not a bad mon. However, it is really really slow and struggles against faster offensive threats that it can't OHKO with its priority, which albeit is strong, is not strong enough to get ohkos other mons. Band still can be walled by mons like Amoon, which is increasingly common, and to some extent Skarm but that's honestly not too big of a problem. The B-drum set is predictable, and struggles to get one or more KO before it is KOed itself by a faster mon. Gengar - A- Loss of levitate is honestly not what should have initially caused Gengar to drop obviously levitate is better than cursed body but there are hardly any situations where levitate can come into play. However, Gengar's utility is greatly lowered now that there are a ton more dark types around such as Greninja, and an increase in Weavile usage, as well as the ability for them to pursuit trap it and completely remove it from the game. So yeah, now it should drop. Mew - A- Defog defensive is ok, but there are more reliable hazard removers. Pursuit really hurts it in its ability to come in and consistently remove hazards. Phys def is bad, most fighting types used have guts, specially defensive is alright. The stallbreaker set is outclassed use a better stallbreaker such as Togekiss or Gliscor. Kabutops - B+, B is debatable Honestly can't hit that hard without an SD boost, still can be walled by bulky waters after an SD boost and takes a lot of damage from rain boosted scalds, bad type synergy with Pelipper and Kingdra, honestly just use Kingdra as a solo sweeper and have a support mon instead Diggersby - A- Pretty much like Azu except with a worse typing but better attack and speed. Espeon - B- Team preview stops you from being able to bounce back hazards/status if your opponent is careful, magic bounce is still useful to have around as a deterrent, but bad bulk and 8 pp prevent it from being too useful defensively, while it's outclassed by other psychic types offensively who are faster and stronger or have an additional stab Also gets destroyed by most hazard setters which is not good if you want to switch in. Stall teams are likely to be prepared with pursuit trapping so there's not really that much utility it can bring. Xatu - C+ Same reasons as above, phys bulk is only slightly better and gets 8 more pp but special bulk is worse, even slower than Espeon and does not have the same offensive presence, and ends up being dead weight against offense. However, it is able to hit Ferro with heat wave while Espeon really can't do anything to it. Just don't use either they suck, but at least Espeon sucks a bit less with 130 spatk and 110 spd.

Kingdra - A- Kingdra shares a lot of the same checks and counters as Gren and with Grens everywhere teams are more prepared to take on rain Weavile - A Weavile puts in work every match band hits pretty hard and it's a great revenge killer especially now that it has pursuit. However, it somehow manages to die super quickly every match :( Hippo - B+ Honestly don't see much use for this mon in a normal sand team Ttar is better and normally there are better rocks setters out there for your team Klefki - B+ Hyper offense is meh and screens are really predictable and everything it does can pretty much be nullified by a defog which it can't do anything back against. Lacks recovery to be a threat on defensive teams Starmie - B+ Pursuit being coded makes it difficult for Starmie, lower Gengar usage hurts it, it doesn't have good enough bulk to be a very reliable hazard remover. Arcanine - B Offensive sets are weak and the defensive set struggles to beat any attackers if rocks are up, and even without rocks the stuff it beats is pretty limited. Recovery isn't that great, morning sun's pp sucks Feraligatr - B+ Dragon dance sets aren't that great and it's outclassed by other dragon dancers. It's hard to do anything at all without a dd prior, and even then stuff still beats it. I guess it's not terrible though Gastrodon - A- Mon is good and it beats most Gren variants which is hard to do, plus can check other mons that are not named Gren unlike Mantine Lucario - B+ Meh Mamo - A- Good stabs good attack pretty reliable rocker but slow Mantine - B+ Passive, bad phys def, weak to rocks, Gastro is usually better Omastar - B Just use Kingdra it has a better typing and speed Serp - A- Mon can be deadly after a leaf storm, has a way to beat most of its checks bar stuff like Amoon. Offensive checks can be crippled with glare, Chansey can be leeched to form a nice hp pool, coverage, while not very good, can still hit dragons and Ferro that resist leaf storm Haxorus - B Dragonite is better use dragonite Haxorus's ability doesn't really help it out as a dragon dancer unlike Dnite Jellicent - B- There are so many other better bulky waters out there that actually beat things use those Ninetales - B- Sun was never good Smeargle - B Nice movepool as a suicide lead, susceptible to faster mons taunting it though and can't do anything else besides set hazards and die Shuckle- B- No reliable recovery, all it can do is set webs and literally nothing else, better webs setters out there Talon - B- Poor birdo can't do anything without reliable priority Torkoal - B- Sun was never good Sun mons - C+ Sun was never good Gardevoir - C+ So many better psychic types and fairy types that hit harder and are faster don't bother

So Walross said they wouldn't just code Protean so it would get banned, so lets just hope that they inevitably mess up and it gets banned anyways. Greninja was banned back in ORAS OU, due to many people arguing that it had all the tools it needed to destroy OU: It has really good speed, great coverage moves, entry hazards, and to top it off stab on every one of its move to patch up its mediocre base 103 spatk. But some people still don't want a ban, so lets open up this debate and see what other people think, personally I lean towards a ban. Now lets look at PRO: Arguments for a ban: Greninja is just way too fast. PRO's metagame is disgustingly slow, and this causes Greninja's speed to shine through. Few if any people at all run speed checks in the form of choice scarfers, which makes it easy for Greninja to outpace entire teams. As opposed to Smogon OU, where Greninja had to face up against other pokemon that were able to outspeed it unboosted. The only pokemon able to do so here is Weavile afaik. If you're worried about being outsped by scarfers, you can simply just slap a scarf on Greninja instead and it's the fastest thing around again. Coverage: Greninja has all the coverage it needs to beat any of its mons, with pump, pulse, beam, HP Fire, low kick, gunk shot, rock slide, grass knot and extrasensory. This can lead to a lot of predictability, and in many cases unlike other mons with good coverage types, Greninja is actually able to utilize its coverage to easily beat pokemon that would normally counter it due to protean giving the 1.5x bonus to its power. This also allows Gren to avoid potentially super effective attacks by changing its type, though honestly that's not such a big deal. All in all, the coverage causes Gren to be extremely unpredictable and puts a strain on team building, since with the right coverage it can beat multiple would be counters at the same time. Remember that Greninja's stabs are no longer its stabs with protean, which means that dark pulse is not always going to be present, which opens up more coverage slots Hazards: Hazard removal is really bad in PRO, and often teams will not even carry hazard removal. Gren forces a ton of switches, and because of that is able to easily stack up a lot of spikes. On the other hand, there is pretty much no hazard removal that can come in and remove the hazards on Greninja, except for Mantine, which is pretty much never seen, in comparison to other hazard setters like Ferro which are less capable of doing things to the few defoggers we have around. The fact that it is able to set hazards also heavily pressures would be counters such as Gastrodon and especially Ferrothorn, as they hate coming in repeatedly to be worn down by spikes and attack chip. We have even less checks than we do now in USUM, where it is unbanned. You have few Greninja counters, those being Mantine, Chansey, Gastrodon, and Ferrothorn, 2 of those being rather uncommon and checks such as AV Azu, AV Tang, and Clef. Compare that to USUM, where you have more defensive counters in Toxapex, AV Magearna, AV Bulu, and M-Venusaur, as well as more offensive checks that are capable of outspeeding it, such as Koko, Lopunny, Mega Zam, (Lucha to some extent after unburden) or able to live a hit, such as Keldeo, and more common scarfers such as scarf Kart. Offensive teams hardly have any way to deal with Greninja except hope for an odd hydro miss, as pretty much all of our checks and counters are defensive. Greninja will typically pick up a KO and keep claiming KOs unless you have several priority users in the back. Greninja simply puts too much of a strain on offensive, hyper offensive, and even balance teams to be healthy for the metagame. Add to that the fact that imo there seems to be nothing that Greninja is really needed for in order to maintain a healthy metagame. Arguments against a ban: 4MSS: While Greninja has all the coverage it needs to beat around all of its normal counters, it is still limited by its 4 move slots, one of which is most likely going to be used up for spikes, even on the choiced sets, since it's so good at laying them down. This means that it isn't possible to beat all of its counters at the same time: For example if you carry gunk shot you may potentially have to forego carrying ice beam or low kick. Greninja also is extremely rare to find with HP Fire, which means that fire coverage is usually not too much of an issue for Gren. You will also have to run EVs in attack to improve the damage of attacks such as gunk shot and low kick in order to target pokemon such as Clefable and Chansey, which causes its special side to be slightly weaker if running mixed, which may be an issue with its low base stats. Frailty: Greninja is extremely frail with its base 72/67/71 defenses, and as a result it can be difficult to get Greninja into play due to the fact that it will take decent damage from pretty much any attack thrown at it. This is compounded by the fact that u-turn and volt switch do not work properly, so more prediction is needed to bring Greninja in safely, while Greninja can't pivot out as effectively. This also leaves it vulnerable to priority moves depending on what type Greninja has changed into, though often it will not be able to be KOed by a neutral priority hit and will need prior chip from hazards and LO.

I'm personally not a big fan of Dragonite, it's rather straight forward and predictable in its usage (Except for that one time Cyko brought a random banded one in a rain team). Its damage output is rather mediocre without boosts, and recent meta trends don't particularly favor it either, with new mons such as Rotom-W causing problems for it and forcing it to outrage or switch as well as the surge in rain's popularity, which contains plenty of fast mons that are able to do a number on it with draco or ice beam. Dragonite is rather reliant on outrage to do a lot of significant damage to things, as it's its only strong stab move (Dragon claw is just god awful, fly is a joke without flynium z), which leaves it extremely vulnerable to being picked off by your opponent's fairy or ice type if you do manage to KO something with it. For example: +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Don't use dragon claw it doesn't even hit as hard as a Lego brick Bulky waters such as Slowbro are generally the best answer to Dragonite, since it is unable to ohko them at +1 and is unable to do any real damage to them without locking itself into outrage, which as I have mentioned before, leaves it rather vulnerable. Its coverage moves generally don't help it out too much, as an unresisted stab move will do around as much as a super effective thunder or fire punch (Don't run those they suck +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Outrage does more damage). If you're gonna use an elemental punch go for fire punch at least it hits Ferro. At the same time, Dragonite really cannot utilize its good movepool well, since espeed and your choice of dragon stab (Read: Outrage) and dragon dance leave only one additional coverage slot open. Your only real coverage moves to work with are EQ and Iron Head, and using one of them leaves you vulnerable to being walled by something else. If you run iron head you lack any move to hit steels with, while if you run EQ you lack an attack to really hit fairies such as Clefable. Even then, the coverage moves aren't really all that great, since they fail to OHKO even at +1, and your opponent can adjust once they know what your last move is. +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 258-304 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-146 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- 75.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Ferro can be a nuisance to Dnite that lacks fire punch Dragonite's better set IMO is the choice band one. However, this too does have its drawbacks, since Dragonite will probably not be able to OHKO its answers on balance, defensive, or stall teams, and your opponent can adjust accordingly. At the same time, its base 80 speed, which is alright, still leaves it prone to being outsped by faster threats which can KO or break multiscale, making it much easier to KO. The band set is also even more vulnerable to being revenged after outraging, since it doesn't even have the +1 speed to help it out. Rain Dragonite's kind of meh as well, without the speed investment you're slow, and if you do put in speed investment it's going to be very hard to hit a Chansey even if it doesn't predict the superpower 252 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 460-543 (65.4 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 382-452 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (You won't be KOing with the damage dropoff) I'm not a big fan of the usage of life orb as well, since if you run life orb you might as well not have an ability at all whatsover since you need full HP for multiscale to do anything. This makes rain Dnite super easy to revenge when put up against offensive teams, as you don't have speed nor do you have multiscale to protect yourself Jirachi is especially troublesome to the rain Dnite, and Rotom can cause its share of problems as well, while at the same time taking advantage of hydro pump being rain boosted to do a decent amount back after pain splitting up. And as always Latios deserves its spot on the top 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 318-375 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO Honestly I've really never had any problems dealing with Dnite in general, and I don't think it deserves a spot in A+. It certainly is definitely not as potent of a threat as other pokemon in the tier such as Weavile, Latios, and Tyranitar, all of which are offensive pokemon that are both much harder to switch into and have either a very good speed tier or very good bulk that makes dealing with them more difficult than dealing with Dragonite

Alright one more thing Latios A+->S I've been using choice specs Latios lately and it's pretty busted. The lack of pursuit pretty much allows you to spam your moves without any drawbacks (This is for any Latios set). The only switchins to the specs set are Chansey, Scizor, Klefki and Ferrothorn, both of which are relatively easy to deal with. Chansey is forced to softboiled every time it comes in, or else it dies to the next two psyshocks the next time it switches in, which allows you to get free turns, while the steels can be deleted with Magnezone. It's not that hard to get Latios in either due to its reasonable bulk, as you can bring it on a double, on mons that really can't do anything back to Latios, or when revenge killing a mon. Unlike the other heavy hitters on this list, Latios also has an amazing 110 speed, so it's relatively hard to revenge kill it as well without a scarfer or faster mon. If you get your prediction right, Latios has no switchins, and with hazards up pretty much every time you come in something's dropping: I don't have hp fire so I run surf, dual psychics, and draco 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 240-283 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 357-420 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 237-279 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO This one's a bit more iffy with the KO but no Tangrowth wants to take that much damage 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 196-232 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 265-313 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 195-231 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 372-438 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 300-354 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Suicune: 271-321 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 373-441 (87.5 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 318-375 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO Fun Multiscale calc 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 594-698 (226.7 - 266.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO For funsies :) TL;DR: Slap specs onto Latios and drop the meteor that wiped out the dinos. A+->S

Well out of those not many are going to bother stay in on a Chansey or Blissey. The damage output on most of Blissey's attacks are pathetic, and the way it plays out in PRO most people fool themselves into thinking their attack is actually going to do damage. The thing you forgot to mention is that Chansey takes a lot less damage, especially on the physical side because of its eviolite augmented bulk Specs Latios (Honestly was considering rising Latios. Its specs set is very underrated, especially since even if you pick the wrong move you aren't punished as hard due to no pursuit) 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 357-420 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-307 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO Kingdra: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Rain: 274-324 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 226-267 (32.1 - 38%) -- 95.5% chance to 3HKO With rocks up it's a lot easier for Kingdra to find the extra chip it needs on Blissey than Chansey to sweep through Blissey's pathetic 4x effectives: 0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 136-164 (38.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery You pretty much recover all of it right back with leech seed and leftovers. Literally every time someone's run flamethrower on Blissey they stay in 1 or 2 turns more than they should and give me free spikes. I've seen people double out to Blissey on the Ferro switch in to pick up that veteran chip with flamethrower. No. Just no :'(. 0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 188-224 (53.4 - 63.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal Roost takes out flying type, so chances are the average PRO players gonna stay in to shave another 25% off while the Gliscor roosts and picks up even more swords dances Your purpose of running Blissey or Chansey is to have a special and partially physical wall and provide utility to your team with rocks or heal bell support. The purpose of running Blissey or Chansey is not to be attacking the enemy mon. That is what the rest of the team is for. If you're running stall, then there's absolutely no reason to be using an attacking move on Blissey as opposed to using status and hazards to chip down the opponent's pokemon. If you're predicting their mon to come in, and get the prediction right, you're better of just flat out switching to your check/counter, except shaving off a bit with one of Blissey's attacks, then being forced to switch out the next turn and having another mon take damage that it shouldn't have. And anyways against a lot of taunt users you're not going to be staying in anyways. Have fun getting that nice chip against a Mandibuzz or Jellicent or something like that when you're taunted. But oh wait 100% freeze hax from ice beam I take that back run scarf ice beam on everything PRO it actually wins all your games the RNG is busted TL;DR: Blissey is a wall. Chansey does its job as a wall better. If you want to attack their mons don't use your wall. Use a better pokemon that does more damage even when its attack is resisted to attack. One other thing I missed Machamp on the previous post Machamp A- ->C+ There are so many fairies and flying types running around that Machamp struggles to really do anything, as the only thing it has going for it is no guard dynamic punch, which I guess beats Clefable most of the time cuz of the RNG making me hit myself in confusion until I get KOed. 2meirl4meirl :(

Well here I go again :| The top tiers are way too crowded, while the bottom tiers are kind of empty in terms of pokemon that are somewhat relevant. If you look at the official Smogon viability rankings, being in C ranks does not mean it can't be seen at all, but rather it holds some niche that keeps it as a threat to keep in mind. Now if you look at this tiering system, pretty much anything below B+ is hot trash, which should not be the way it is organized. Without further ado, lets start filling in the B ranks :) S Rank: Togekiss S->A/A+ (Somewhere around there but it needs to drop) Togekiss needs to go it relies too much on flinching stuff to death, and is generally extremely predictable. It's pretty weak to status and most people aren't smart enough to run heal bell in order to stall break better. Scarf straight up is dead weight against any team with a Chansey or Blissey, while the slower build are pretty slow and end up struggling against faster teams that can constantly put pressure on it. A Rank: Heatran A+ -> S Weavile A+ -> A Skarmory A+ ->A Heatran does really well against many types of teams and will rarely be in a matchup where it is useless. It's arguably the best Clef check available, being able to shut it down with taunt. It's also extremely easy to put up rocks with Heatran, and it beats much of the common hazard removal that people run. It also does well against other meta mons, like the common steel and fairy types. Though magma storm was banned, which takes out a large chunk of its utility (I'd honestly argue S+ if magma storm wasn't banned), it still does its job extremely well as a utility mon and deserves S rank Weavile really needs pursuit to do its job correctly. Clef is on practically every team and is a really easy switch into Weavile, so without pursuit it struggles to do anything particularly meaningful (Besides freeze half the enemy team to death because people still don't run crash), especially if it doesn't run poison jab, which makes it more vulnerable to steels Recent meta trends don't really favor Skarm, there's an apparent increase in the usage of Heatran, which destroys it, as well as rain, which it struggles to do much against and loses momentum for the team against. A Rank: Alakazam A->A+ Blissey A->B Crawdaunt A->A- Gyarados A->B+ Ninetales A-> B- Omastar A->B- Politoed A->B- Snorlax A->B- Scizor A->B+ Alakazam is a very underrated threat. It hits extremely hard, and since pursuit isn't coded properly it can't be pursuit trapped, meaning it can constantly come in and dish out damage without having to worry about being revenged easily by Weavile or Ttar Blissey is just worse Chansey why are people still running this thing? Chansey's fatter. You get ice beam but with Blissey's spatk you're honestly doing more damage with a seismic toss even if it is 2x effective. Crawdaunt hits extremely hard, but its speed and bulk are relatively easy to exploit and difficult to actually put that into practice without a trick room, which sadly isn't in PRO. Against offensive teams you'll probably be forced to aqua jet in order to actually get a hit off, which is pretty easy to predict. Gyarados honestly should drop even lower. It struggles to break through teams and kick start moxie (which most people run) without Flynium Z. Most teams are better off using a bulky water like Suicune, which will generally provide better utility in most matchups. Sun is just crappy rain that doesn't even give the damage bonus to the sweeper's stabs. Ninetales also has a secret move where you can attempt to bribe the other player with crappy shinies and 500k, but it only has worse accuracy than focus miss. Omastar's just a bad Kingdra. It's a lot slower, has a much worse typing than Kingdra, being both weak to electric and grass which isn't nice on a rain team, especially if you decide to run a physical sweeper in Kabutops, and you'll lose to any other rain team that runs a Kingdra. Just don't run the mon. What is Politoed doing here? Pelipper is better in every way. Snorlax gets completely shut down by taunt. It takes too long to set up with curse, and during that time it's way too easy to bring in something to take it down or prepare to revenge kill it. This mon honestly hasn't been very relevant for the longest time. U-turn not being coded properly hurts it, and the way the metagame is really hurts it as well, with Scizor not being able to do much against dominant playstyles like rain and stall. I honestly have yet to see a game where the enemy Scizor has gotten a single KO A- Rank: Donphan A- -> UR Entei A- -> B+ Goodra A- -> B Ludicolo A- -> UR Lucario A-->B+ Jellicent A- -> B+ Donphan's like Anakin in a pod race except in its case spinning isn't even a good trick. It's a hazard setter and a hazard remover that gets beat by every hazard setter and hazard remover. It also wishes it had the high ground like Lando but sadly it gets bopped by +2 EQ from Excadrill. Enough said. Banded sacred fire in sun doesn't hit as hard There's literally no point in using Goodra over Chansey. Someone with a Ferro's only gonna fall for the sap sipper garbage once, and that's only because there's no team preview. It lacks any recovery whatsoever, making it very easy to wear down. It also No reason to use it over Kingdra it's pretty much worse in every regard, has less speed, spatk, a less useful secondary stab, and if you run this mon you will lose to every other rain team out there that runs Kingdra. Deport it to Mexico please Jellicent's still usable since rain's becoming a lot more prevalent. However, Gastrodon arguably does its job better, while also being a bit more useful in other matchups due to its better defensive typing and physical bulk. The main draw of Jellicent in ORAS was being immune to Keldeo's dual stabs, which isn't present in PRO. It's outclassed in being your rain check, but still holds it niche with access to taunt and w-o-w. Lucario not particularly good at anything besides being the subject of some rather questionable art. It's outclassed as a fighting type wallbreaker by Heracross, which has a better attack, ability, and secondary stab. It can get a bit hard to set up with Lucario, since it has low defenses, and even after one swords dance many mons will still shrug off its hits, like Slowbro. Its also limited by its moveslots, since it can either go for ice punch or meteor mash, and forgoing one or the other leads it to be either annoyed by fairies or flying types B+ Rank: Arcanine B+ -> B- Dusknoir B+->UR Galvantula B+->B Jolteon B+->B/B- Lanturn B+ -> UR Poliwrath B+->UR Rotom H B+ ->C+ If you're using offensive Arcanine, take a look at its offensive stats and pick another offensive fire type like Darmanitan or Infernape. If you're using defensive Arcanine, take a look at its fire type and unreliable recovery (We all know how much PRO loves weather) and use another physically defensive pokemon that has useful resistances on the physical side and doesn't have weather dependent recovery. Dusknoir is worse than Dusclops. Dusclops is worse than every other defensive mon. Pain split isn't the most reliable recovery, and its ghost type isn't particularly good as a defensive typing, since there are relatively few fighting types around in PRO. If you're gonna use one of them use Dusclops both hit like wet rags anyways and at least Dusclops gets eviolite. Smeargle is more reliable at setting webs than Galvantula, which is pretty much the only thing Galvantula is good at. You'll generally not want to be using this thing to pick up KOs. If you are, rethink your team because you don't have enough mons that can abuse webs. Jolteon is too frail and doesn't hit hard enough. The fact that volt switch isn't coded properly doesn't really help either. Lanturn wishes it could be as scary of a threat as the angler fish in Nemo. It lacks any reliable recovery and is extremely easy to wear down, plus its bulk isn't as good as it would seem based off of its fat appearance Use a better pokemon for your bulky water Poliwrath has a fighting type that it would rather not have, as well as a lack of reliable recovery. IT also has a lower special attack than other bulky waters, and its limited by its moveslots, since it can opt to run rest talk or ice beam. Milotic does everything it does but better. Rotom H is a waste of your Rotom same stats, but a less useful fire type that gives it more weaknesses, including a bad weakness to stealth rock for a mon that already struggles with recovery and a weakness to water. Hydro pump also is pretty handy to have around. It's already hard enough to get a Rotom don't bother wasting it Literally everything in B and below (Except Aero and Chandelure they can stay I guess) B/B-/C+ -> Unranked This garbage doesn't belong on a list you'd honestly be better off running endeavor Rattata As a second thought move them all to S rank I want to farm pvp wins again I can elaborate more on some of them later right now I'm feeling lazy

Well, I accidentally released a timid Swinub earlier today that I'm pretty sure was carrying a BMS. If you can't do anything because I didn't have the ID before releasing and logging out that's understandable. Edit Calahan: Silver server

Shadow tag and other trapping in itself is uncompetitive, and therefore should be banned. The addition of shed shell doesn't really help this. since pretty much every mon that would be trapped by Gothitelle (which is a lot) would pretty much be forced to run the item. We've already discussed the ban on shadow tag in the other thread. Making walls weaker - Lol you don't want me to be able to run Goth stall Keep Gothitelle banned - No one wants to sit around beating up on a Wobbuffet punching bag Ban CM + ST - It prevents the trap from snowballing into a sweep but still, you're deleting something with shadow tag. That's dumb Edit: Forgot that PRO, being PRO, hasn't coded trick

Life orb is super glitched in PRO for several reasons: 1.) After fainting from life orb recoil, the other pokemon is unable to use a move (I lost a game today because of this one bugged mechanic). This isn't what actually happens in normal pvp. This isn't limited to life orb recoil too, as explosion and other self destruct moves also prevent the opposing pokemon from using moves afterwards ie recover. Because of this I'd advocated for them to be banned as this can potentially be abused (and yes I've lost because of this as well) 2.) I've also lost even though I won because of life orb. If your last pokemon gets KOed by life orb recoil as it KOs the opponent's last pokemon, it counts it as you've lost, which really needs to be fixed. I honestly don't know why I posted this since it's not gonna get fixed like literally everything else in pro, but its worth a shot.

Finally PRO gets a better guide than that other one.

Ban Rhyperior please its so uncompetitive for so many reasons omg how do you even stop this thing :Angry: A close look at damage calculations reveals how broken and uncompetitive this pokemon is For instance: -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 151-178 (39.5 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 177-211 (40.8 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO More than 10% to the glorious defensive Lando T? BLASPHEMY! BAN TO UBERS OMG HOW CAN YOU EVEN DO THIS TO US. And our lord and savior ground genie can't even ohko ban to ubers quick get the ban hammer. It also has amazing defensive typing too Rock/Ground resists the important types of flying/fire how dare they resist the STAB combo of the illustrious Talonflame Not only that but it resists the clandestine cobblestones of stealth rock. HOW DARE IT RESIST THOSE SNEAKY PEBBLES BAN EVERYTHING THAT ISN'T 4X TO ROCKS ONLY TALONFLAME CAN REMAIN Taking Advantage Of The Meta This is just the beginning. Not only does this disgusting vile abomination do 40% to Lando T, it also OHKOs the glorious Smogon Bird, the brave sir Talonflame, bravest of the bravest brave brave birds brave birding. 252+ Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rhyperior: 63-74 (14.5 - 17%) -- possible 6HKO As you can see here Talonflame fails to OHKO Rhyperior BAN TO UBERS THIS THING IS BUSTED HOW CAN YOU COUNTER THIS MONSTER HOW DARE YOU CREATE A CREATURE CAPABLE OF STANDING UP TO BRAVE BIRDS REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD BRAVE BIRD Immense Physical Bulk 130 Def ermagerd How can you even kill this thing the stall lords are gonna overwhelm pvp ladder :Angry: This mon makes pvp unplayable ban to ubers quick quick quick Uncompetitive REEEEEEEEEE No counter play REEEEEEEEEE Variety Of Coverage Moves Rhyperior has every hidden power meaning it can hit every pokemon in the game for super effective damage do you know what that means this is uncompetitive no counter play or tell me how to counter this thing. Solution Ban everything except the mons that get OHKOed by Talonflame or Lando T Fellow proletariat rise up against our elitist Smogon overlords DOWN WITH THE BOURGEOISIE DOWN WITH THE ELITIST SCUM WHO ALLOW THIS OPPRESSION OF THE PROLETARIAT TO OCCUR EMBRACE THE RED BRAVERY OF TALONFLAME PRO admins pls listen you do not know da wey Thank you for reading. PS I hope you realized this was satire I'm not autistic :Angel: PPS Code magma storm Edit: Added the stuff about rocks

Rapid Spin inflicts damage and then removes the effects of any binding moves and Leech Seed from the user, as well as entry hazards from the user's side of the field (unless the user has fainted as a result of the move, such as from Rough Skin). Taken from Bulbapedia

Talonflame doesn't have good damage. 81 attack is nothing. To put it into perspective, unboosted Talonflame (adamant) literally has less than half of the attack of a banded Tyranitar. Fire/Flying is also a really crappy typing. No pokemon with 4x to rocks can be considered to have a good typing. Plus, its fire typing can easily be exploited by the bulky water archetype, leading it to be beat by Milotic/Slowbro/Suicune (especially Slowbro) Gale wings is the only thing that saves Talon, and due to its numerous other exploitable weaknesses, I'd argue that Talonflame is very good as a pokemon, but not bannable.

Ill give you the slow(but has aqua jet) and predictable. However, its still immensely popular on red server, is easy to obtain a very good one, beats all sand mons, does very well agianst rain bar ludicolo, and can always run superpower if the user has no fero answer, and only a handful of mons can resist both its stabs. Ive seen bellydrum, assault vest , and band sets all have success in the top 25 of red server. Also cant forget the ever coveted fairy typing. How easy the pokemon is to catch should not have any part to play in its viability in pvp. That aside, lets compare Azumarill to the other S ranked mons: Choice band is Azumarill's only effective set. If you run B-drum you'll get foul played or revenged. This set does nothing against teams that are prepared. If you run assault vest you'll hit like a wet rag. 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 123-145 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery This thing is so weak without band. The only viable sets would be band and the sap sipper non-set which isn't that great atm due to the devs not wanting to properly code any moves. Azumarill vs Clef: Clef can fulfill many roles on all types of teams. You have the defensive calm mind set, as well as the defensive utility set, both of which are great. In those sets you can have variation too, as you can switch up the coverage move. Compare that to Azumarill, which can pretty much only switch between knock off and superpower. Clef can fit on many types of teams, such as stall, balance, defensive, and even on offensive teams. Azumarill's pretty much only limited to offensive and balance, teams, sometimes on webs HO. The only thing Azumarill can do is attack, whereas Clef can attack, tank hits, and set up the coveted rocks. It also has that sweet mono-fairy typing, which is broken, and magic guard, which is also broken. Azumarill vs Talon: Talon does goddamn everything. The specially defensive set pretty much gets by all of Talonflame's standard counters bar Mandibuzz and Tyranitar, and even those have to fear getting wisped on the switchin. Priority roost is super powerful on defensive oriented teams. Talonflame is also a fearsome offensive threat, definitely more centralizing than Azumarill, as it outspeeds literally every mon except other Talonflames. In those sets you have variation as well, leading Talonflame to be very unpredictable, as people can opt to run mono-flying, flare blitz, or w-o-w. W-o-w especially screws over sand teams by wisping the Ttar, which pretty much puts it out of the game. The only thing keeping it unbanned is its horrible typing. Another thing holding Azumarill back is the fact that it's limited to a single choiced attack, whereas the other two S ranked pokemon are not since they use boosting moves. Even if you get rid of their Azumarill switchin and pick up a KO, chances are your sweep stops there since they can pick a pokemon that resists the move that you've selected. However, with Talonflame or Clefable, once you take out the pokemon that walls it, you pretty much win since they can use coverage moves to get by.