PRO Viability Rankings (PVP)

Idkup · January 22, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

</s><POST content="339993"><s></s>339993<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> nah mence is a horrible pdon check bc of stone edge / parashuffler sets and waterceus means giving up your arceus forme to a dedicated pdon check which doesn't work for many teams;<e>
</e></QUOTE>
I'v been part uber/ag community for years but thanks to you i learned something new , people way of handling hazards in sumo's meta are mence,exca,waterceus,darkceus,gira ,(wait wait waterceus and mence ?)and therefore there are more hp ice pdon running around than stone edge ones and SD less variants can't even touch mence and are simply setup bait,and had to mention no one played parashuffler since longtime ago ,whereas zygard-c is straight better now for doing this job . (speak of thing you are aware of, thanks )<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> also instead of being trapped by goth you prefer being straight up 2hkod?<e>
</e></QUOTE>
Yes,well nothing appart from psyshic even 2hko,and tbolt is much worse than toxic<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> slowbro can at least take on goth in a cm war while wrath just loses [Censored],<e>
</e></QUOTE>
No<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> furthermore nothing screams 'free switch for clefable' like a poliwrath so it's basically guaranteed a paralyze whenever it switches in<e>
</e></QUOTE>
No aswell .
<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> imo at least one of the primary roles of a bulky water in this meta is to prevent an excadrill sweep, and using poliwrath leads to this: 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 325-383 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock<e>
</e></QUOTE>
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth . 
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 438-516 (102.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 344-407 (95 - 112.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 402-473 (102 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 430-508 (106.4 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 415-489 (108.3 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 370-437 (92.2 - 108.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 472-555 (101.7 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
cune is30ish % getting ohked,bar waterceus and rotom-w (even a [Censored] m-stoise's spread fully invested in hp and def is ohked with sand and sr,fishing for a flinch is also a possible way to pass through tom and ceus )everything "bulky water" just faint to exca , 
you see i am aswell cable of copypasting some calcs , you may correct me if i'm wrong , but almost no one play ada exca and leaking calc of an ada lo+2 exca is irrevalent as ,since almost nothing walls it properly with a bit of hax/prior damage/hazards<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> another major problem with wrath is that offensively speaking it contributes absolutely nothing to your teambuild which makes it a pretty massive momentum kill <e>
</e></QUOTE>
momentum killer=/=stabbed phazing abillity.
<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> reducing a 'tank' without reliable recovery to 40% is basically removing it from play altogether because you can now disregard it entirely when planning your sweep<e>
</e></QUOTE>
Remodling arguments i gaved to ask for a ranking in the first place , to discredit it later on ,when i actually pointed thoose out sounds lame ;you basiclly change the interpration of words to make them your side thus counter-argumentating whith pointing thoose flows ."hey don't rank it up too high, it has somehow no reliable recovery " "but you know it has no reliable recovery so it sucks" Rolf .(i have shorten but his post is about that kind of thing )<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> and basically not viable on anything faster than semistall.<e>
</e></QUOTE>Wrong again , balance ?(you probably never seen one during ORAS OU, or even in pro for obvious reasons ) anyways isn't pro full of semi-stall teams ? 
Edit: Dunno if you noticed ,the rank i asked for was lower than bulky water having acces to a reliable recovery except jellycent, because of his knock of's weakness while taking wrath"s niche of checking the abondancy of LO knock off users .<e>

</e></QUOTE>

i'm gonna ignore all of your 'no' because you failed to back it up at all...

1) Primal Groudon =/= Stealth Rock. You've listed defoggers, not Primal Groudon checks, and it's quite obvious you don't play much Ubers by the fact that you make no mention of Dragon Arceus or Fairy Arceus.

2) Zygarde-C doesn't like lava plume does it

3) What Gothitelle doesn't run Psychic or Psyshock, that's just delusional lmfao

4) My calc is a Jolly Exca, yours are Adamant...

5) Nice STAB phazing ability that hardly 2hkos the frailest of Pokemon weak to it...

6) Semistall is dead. Clefable killed it. Life Orb was the last straw.

7) Balance would lose so much momentum from running Poliwrath that you might as well call it a semistall...

!learn Milotic, Dragon Tail

!learn Vaporeon, Roar

edit: !learn Zygarde, Roost, Defog

edit2: 236+ Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Salamence-Mega: 198-234 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO "setup bait"

edit3: apparently you were comparing zygarde-c to primal groudon, not flygon - if you've ever played ubers you would know it's Role Compression: The Metagame. Parashuffle Pdon has one major perk that makes it far and away better than Zygarde-C: It can actually stop a Geomancied Xerneas and Primal Kyogre.

that is all</r>

Zinsmiter · January 22, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

Shewas18 · January 23, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> 1) Primal Groudon =/= Stealth Rock. You've listed defoggers, not Primal Groudon checks, and it's quite obvious you don't play much Ubers by the fact that you make no mention of Dragon Arceus or Fairy Arceus.<e>

</e></QUOTE>Most common used defogger are some kind of p-don checks .meanwhile

6 | Salamence-Mega | 22.76181% | 87880 | 13.509% | 52780 | 12.487%

11 | Zygarde | 15.52786% | 79302 | 12.191% | 54152 | 12.812%

12 | Arceus-Water | 14.08012% | 29118 | 4.476% | 20002 | 4.732% |

14 | Giratina-Origin | 12.97521% | 38577 | 5.930% | 25388 | 6.007% |

21 | Arceus-Fairy | 7.69787% | 13060 | 2.008% | 9228 | 2.183% |

64 | Arceus-Dragon | 1.22215% | 4892 | 0.752% | 3178 | 0.752% |

Dragon form check p-don aswell im not denying it, yet over 1k7 it's almost never used ,even tho waterceus as trouble checking SD-don ,it's just better overall(new toys like z-gem arceus-ground you know ) , fairy is clearly meant to help checking yvetal (magerna is more runned than arceus-fairy aswell for yvetal(and xern) and w'r starting to see heatwave more and more on yvetal<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> edit2: 236+ Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Salamence-Mega: 198-234 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO "setup bait"<e>

</e></QUOTE><QUOTE><s>

</s>!learn Zygarde, Roost, Defog<e>

</e></QUOTE>I doubt you are even voiced in the first place, "In Gen 7, Zygarde can't learn these moves" and so "In Gen 7, Salamence can learn these moves" Roostall stone edge ,and precipice doesn't even 2hko ,don't even need to add the atqdrop .

And both spread are kind of outdated because of the aerilate nerf ,boost to mega and the proeminance of M-Luc in the actual meta to handle both xean/m-gengar/arceus-fairy and crush stall (and 0hko pdon a+2,or just 2hko it)<QUOTE><s>

</s>Parashuffle Pdon has one major perk that makes it far and away better than Zygarde-C: It can actually stop a Geomancied Xerneas and Primal Kyogre.<e>

</e></QUOTE>If you even played uber recently there a ton of new core handling both of them ,without having p-don being parashuffler

Thunder Wave 14.654% (Other 19.137%hp ice/toxic) <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> 2) Zygarde-C doesn't like lava plume does it<e>

</e></QUOTE>Like he cares (hp ice p-don is for the swag) ->

Groudon-Primal

Checks and Counters :

Zygarde 68.384 (75.80Â±1.86) |

| (17.0% KOed / 58.8% switched out)|

Salamence-Mega 61.569 (70.56Â±2.25) |

| (31.2% KOed / 39.4% switched out)

</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> 3) What Gothitelle doesn't run Psychic or Psyshock, that's just delusional [Censored]<e>

</e></QUOTE>Psyshock 3hko at best and pyschic is never runned <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> 5) Nice STAB phazing ability that hardly 2hkos the frailest of Pokemon weak to it..<e>

</e></QUOTE>Phazing moove was never meant for sweeping ,weavile&bisharp both get ohked.

</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> 4) My calc is a Jolly Exca, yours are Adamant...<e>

</e></QUOTE>:O u'r right i wasn't even paying attention tbh,but still :

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 430-508 (92.6 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 364-430 (92.3 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Gastrodon: 403-476 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 298-352 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 316-372 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 394-464 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 276-325 (70 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 378-446 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 337-398 (84 - 99.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

</s><POST content="339993"><s></s>339993<e></e></POST> idkup wrote: 
Source of the post imo at least one of the primary roles of a bulky water in this meta is to prevent an excadrill sweep<e>

</e></QUOTE>

</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> !learn Milotic, Dragon Tail 
!learn Vaporeon, Roar<e>

</e></QUOTE>both doesn't check knock of at +2 ,dragontail miss clefable and kiss .<QUOTE><s>

</s>wrath"s niche of checking the abondancy of LO knock off users .<e>

</e></QUOTE> "i don't care and i ignored it anyway "

</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> i'm gonna ignore all of your 'no' because you failed to back it up at all...<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Cm slowbro straight loose to toxic goth ,half the meta is free switch for clefable , and for clefable and lo destroying semi-stall , yet half the red serveur is full of semi-stall, and you gotta learn teambuilding as well .

</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> that is all<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Yeah that is all

Edit: <QUOTE author="SheWas18"><s>

</s><POST content="339993"><s></s>339993<e></e></POST> idkup wrote: 
Source of the post nah mence is a horrible pdon check bc of stone edge / parashuffler sets and waterceus means giving up your arceus forme to a dedicated pdon check which doesn't work for many teams;
<e>

</e></QUOTE>All thoose data are from the highest elo , i"m just copypasting datas, nothing else, but still showing howmuch bullshit u'r saying

Edit 2:I heard what you said, you are pretty much against the idea of poliwrath being worth to be runned, and it's starting to be off-topic ,anyway im done debating and you obviously not played once poliwrath to have an unbiased opinion , poliwrath got ranked , you being unhappy with it isn't my concern , have a good day .</r>

Idkup · January 23, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

</s><POST content="340454"><s></s>340454<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> 1) Primal Groudon =/= Stealth Rock. You've listed defoggers, not Primal Groudon checks, and it's quite obvious you don't play much Ubers by the fact that you make no mention of Dragon Arceus or Fairy Arceus.<e>
</e></QUOTE>Most common used defogger are some kind of p-don checks .meanwhile 
6 | Salamence-Mega | 22.76181% | 87880 | 13.509% | 52780 | 12.487% <- loses to all pdons that aren't the specially defensive set 
11 | Zygarde | 15.52786% | 79302 | 12.191% | 54152 | 12.812% <- decent pdon check, but hates lava plume burns 
12 | Arceus-Water | 14.08012% | 29118 | 4.476% | 20002 | 4.732% | <- probably one of the better pdon checks the meta has to offer 
14 | Giratina-Origin | 12.97521% | 38577 | 5.930% | 25388 | 6.007% | <- LOL 
21 | Arceus-Fairy | 7.69787% | 13060 | 2.008% | 9228 | 2.183% | <- not a pdon check 
64 | Arceus-Dragon | 1.22215% | 4892 | 0.752% | 3178 | 0.752% | <- soft-check 
Dragon form check p-don aswell im not denying it, yet over 1k7 it's almost never used ,even tho waterceus as trouble checking SD-don ,it's just better overall(new toys like z-gem arceus-ground you know ) , fairy is clearly meant to help checking yvetal (magerna is more runned than arceus-fairy aswell for yvetal(and xern) and w'r starting to see heatwave more and more on yvetal<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> edit2: 236+ Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Salamence-Mega: 198-234 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO "setup bait"<e>
</e></QUOTE><QUOTE><s>
</s>!learn Zygarde, Roost, Defog<e>
</e></QUOTE>I doubt you are even voiced in the first place, "In Gen 7, Zygarde can't learn these moves" and so "In Gen 7, Salamence can learn these moves" Roostall stone edge ,and precipice doesn't even 2hko ,don't even need to add the atqdrop . 
And both spread are kind of outdated because of the aerilate nerf ,boost to mega and the proeminance of M-Luc in the actual meta to handle both xean/m-gengar/arceus-fairy and crush stall (and 0hko pdon a+2,or just 2hko it)<QUOTE><s>
</s>Parashuffle Pdon has one major perk that makes it far and away better than Zygarde-C: It can actually stop a Geomancied Xerneas and Primal Kyogre.<e>
</e></QUOTE>If you even played uber recently there a ton of new core handling both of them ,without having p-don being parashuffler 
Thunder Wave 14.654% (Other 19.137%hp ice/toxic) <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> 2) Zygarde-C doesn't like lava plume does it<e>
</e></QUOTE>Like he cares (hp ice p-don is for the swag) -> 
Groudon-Primal 
Checks and Counters : 
Zygarde 68.384 (75.80Â±1.86) | 
| (17.0% KOed / 58.8% switched out)| 
Salamence-Mega 61.569 (70.56Â±2.25) | 
| (31.2% KOed / 39.4% switched out)
<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> 3) What Gothitelle doesn't run Psychic or Psyshock, that's just delusional [Censored]<e>
</e></QUOTE>Psyshock 3hko at best and pyschic is never runned <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> 5) Nice STAB phazing ability that hardly 2hkos the frailest of Pokemon weak to it..<e>
</e></QUOTE>Phazing moove was never meant for sweeping ,weavile&bisharp both get ohked.
<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> 4) My calc is a Jolly Exca, yours are Adamant...<e>
</e></QUOTE>:O u'r right i wasn't even paying attention tbh,but still : 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 430-508 (92.6 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 364-430 (92.3 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Gastrodon: 403-476 (94.6 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 298-352 (75.6 - 89.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 316-372 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 394-464 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 276-325 (70 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 378-446 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 337-398 (84 - 99.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 
<IMG src="https://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/164764yX3ygoM.png"><s></e></IMG><QUOTE author="SheWas18"><s>
</s><POST content="339993"><s></s>339993<e></e></POST> idkup wrote: 
Source of the post imo at least one of the primary roles of a bulky water in this meta is to prevent an excadrill sweep<e>
</e></QUOTE>
<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> !learn Milotic, Dragon Tail 
!learn Vaporeon, Roar<e>
</e></QUOTE>both doesn't check knock of at +2 ,dragontail miss clefable and kiss .<QUOTE><s>
</s>wrath"s niche of checking the abondancy of LO knock off users .<e>
</e></QUOTE> "i don't care and i ignored it anyway "
<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> i'm gonna ignore all of your 'no' because you failed to back it up at all...<e>
</e></QUOTE>
Cm slowbro straight loose to toxic goth ,half the meta is free switch for clefable , and for clefable and lo destroying semi-stall , yet half the red serveur is full of semi-stall, and you gotta learn teambuilding as well . 

<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340249"><s></s>340249<e></e></POST> that is all<e>
</e></QUOTE>
Yeah that is all 
Edit: <QUOTE author="SheWas18"><s>
</s><POST content="339993"><s></s>339993<e></e></POST> idkup wrote: 
Source of the post nah mence is a horrible pdon check bc of stone edge / parashuffler sets and waterceus means giving up your arceus forme to a dedicated pdon check which doesn't work for many teams;
<e>
</e></QUOTE>All thoose data are from the highest elo , i"m just copypasting datas, nothing else, but still showing howmuch [Censored] u'r saying 
Edit 2:I heard what you said, you are pretty much against the idea of poliwrath being worth to be runned, and it's starting to be off-topic ,anyway im done debating and you obviously not played once poliwrath to have an unbiased opinion , poliwrath got ranked , you being unhappy with it isn't my concern , have a good day .<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Actually, I was voiced for over a year in the Ubers room during early to late XY, before I quit the tier a few months before ORAS. I've hit top 30 in the Ubers ladder and have won quite a few room tours, so I'm pretty sure I know wtf I'm talking about when it comes to Ubers as a tier.

Arceus-Dragon and Arceus-Fairy are less common on the ladder because, simply put, the Ubers ladder is more about crushing newbs bringing half-OU teams and legendary stacks than actual Ubers battles - I remember I hit 1500 before a single 'good' battle. It's more effective to run blitz tactics on the ladder, which is not the case in tours - sure, Arc-Dragon is still not an extremely common pick, but it sees considerably more usage.

I don't quite see what you're talking about with 'an abundance of LO Knock Off users' - I don't think Weavile and the rare LO KOff Scizor qualify as an abundance. Also, Knock Off at +2? People are actually allowing Weavile to get a Swords Dance off? A WEAVILE? With a horrible defensive typing and 70/65/85 bulk? +2 Weavile is about as irrelevant as +2 Porygon-Z tbh, i.e. it doesn't exist, at all.

'cm slowbro straight loses to toxic goth' Please cite one person actually running Toxic on Gothitelle, kthx

I'm less unhappy about Poliwrath being ranked than you pretending you have any sort of Ubers experience whatsoever, to be honest. It's a tier I've played for years and your ignorance is quite obvious...

That aside, have a nice day as well.</r>

Krepachu · January 23, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

<r>awesome guide, gj Tr3y <E>:Smile:</E></r>

Shewas18 · January 23, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

</s><POST content="340649"><s></s>340649<e></e></POST> Actually, I was voiced for over a year in the Ubers room during early to late XY, before I quit the tier a few months before ORAS. I've hit top 30 in the Ubers ladder and have won quite a few room tours, so I'm pretty sure I know [Censored] I'm talking about when it comes to Ubers as a tier.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Top 30/25 is full of dice&co(wich got finally unbanned <3) alt ,hitting top 30 in ubber isn't an insurmountable task ,and me winning UU's room tour with an RU scyther-xatu team mean i'm a god ?Or room tour are and always been irrevelant<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="340649"><s></s>340649<e></e></POST> Arceus-Dragon and Arceus-Fairy are less common on the ladder because, simply put, the Ubers ladder is more about crushing newbs bringing half-OU teams and legendary stacks than actual Ubers battles <e>

</e></QUOTE>

Every data i leaked was from ~1k7 to the top ,and nowhere the tier as a whole .<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="340649"><s></s>340649<e></e></POST> Arceus-Dragon and Arceus-Fairy are less common on the ladder because, simply put, the Ubers ladder is more about crushing newbs bringing half-OU teams and legendary stacks than actual Ubers battles - I remember I hit 1500 before a single 'good' battle<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Nothing new , laddering before 1k6 in anytier is all about stomping bad people .

. <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="340649"><s></s>340649<e></e></POST> Arc-Dragon is still not an extremely common pick, but it sees considerably more usage.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

And yet it has Never been used once during spl 5&6 (even electric and figthing were used rolf),and one time during the eight edition .(Still week 3)If you got faith for uber's open and less important one go ahead .

</s><POST content="340649"><s></s>340649<e></e></POST> I'm pretty sure I know [Censored] I'm talking about when it comes to Ubers as a tier.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Yeah speak of thing you are aware of, and recent Uber's metagame is definitly something you don't know about . You lightned that point yourself <QUOTE><s>

</s>before I quit the tier a few months before ORAS<e>

</e></QUOTE><QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="340649"><s></s>340649<e></e></POST> I don't quite see what you're talking about with 'an abundance of LO Knock Off users' - I don't think Weavile and the rare LO KOff Scizor qualify as an abundance. Also, Knock Off at +2? People are actually allowing Weavile to get a Swords Dance off? A WEAVILE? With a horrible defensive typing and 70/65/85 bulk? +2 Weavile is about as irrelevant as +2 Porygon-Z tbh, i.e. it doesn't exist, at all.<e>

</e></QUOTE>If you were honest to yourself, pro lvl overall is the same of any 1k-1k2 SD"s ladder player ,you are pretty much able to setup anything in pro while i don't know how bisharp and daunt are reaching +2 aswell if im listenning to this . i.e it doesn't exist ,at all .<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="340649"><s></s>340649<e></e></POST> 'cm slowbro straight loses to toxic goth' Please cite one person actually running Toxic on Gothitelle, kthx<e>

</e></QUOTE>Me,tr3y,rey and more ?<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="340649"><s></s>340649<e></e></POST> It's a tier I've played for years and your ignorance is quite obvious...
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Saying M-mence is an awfull p-don check is probably one of the most dumbest(yeah huge grammar mistake there aka superlative to help ppl understand )commentary you can give about the uber tier tbh,

and Me being ignorant or not doesn't change the fact, datawise mence is one of the most used answer to pdon over 1k7~1k8 rating , that aside you not playing ORAS meta and SUMO aswell is quite obvious ...

*

Edit:If you want w'r free to debate if m-mence is an awfull sd less p-don set check whenever you want on sd, i'll gadly participate ,and tho stop being off-topic on PRO's forum</r>

Idkup · January 23, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

<r>

'cm slowbro straight loses to toxic goth' Please cite one person actually running Toxic on Gothitelle, kthx

Me,tr3y,rey and more ?<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="340649"><s></s>340649<e></e></POST> It's a tier I've played for years and your ignorance is quite obvious...
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Saying M-mence is an awfull p-don check is probably one of the most dumbest(yeah huge grammar mistake there aka superlative to help ppl understand )commentary you can give about the uber tier tbh,

and Me being ignorant or not doesn't change the fact, datawise mence is one of the most used answer to pdon over 1k7~1k8 rating , that aside you not playing ORAS meta and SUMO aswell is quite obvious ...

*

<s></s>um, if anything pdon is a mmence check, not the other way around...<e></e>

Edit:If you want w'r free to debate if m-mence is an awfull sd less p-don set check whenever you want on sd, i'll gadly participate ,and tho stop being off-topic on PRO's forum

on topic: lots of stuff on the list probably don't belong there and/or should be moved way down

weezing - what exactly does this accomplish again, poison is an okay defensive typing i guess and levitate is nice but its damage output and bulk are just lacking

duskinoir - um... what does this even do

empoleon - only bulky water to be trapped by magnet pull is an accomplishment i guess, lack of steel STAB = no real reason to use

gallade - horrible defensive typing, low speed, extremely susceptible to priority

sableye - klefki exists

ambipom - technician fake out does not make a pokemon viable

electivire - jack of all trades, master of none - simply too weak to get the ohkos it needs

forretress - ferro is better at spikestacking and exca is better at spinning, and neither is complete setup bait like forry

ninetales - sun is by far worse than sand and rain in this meta, and ninetales is possibly a worse setter for sun than sunny day klefki, due to its overall lack of utility and the fact that fire is a horrible defensive typing

umbreon - if this thing got foul play it'd be decent but it doesn't

avalugg - um... ice type + spinner don't really mix well

florges - completely and utterly outclassed by clefable and sylveon

steelix - nonexistent special defense and that secondary ground typing really kill its chances of doing much

quagsire - worse seismitoad / gastrodon</r>

Prehax · January 25, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

</s><POST content="340736"><s></s>340736<e></e></POST> weezing - what exactly does this accomplish again, poison is an okay defensive typing i guess and levitate is nice but its damage output and bulk are just lacking
<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Weezing @ Leftovers

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 SpA

Bold Nature

- Thunderbolt

- Sludge Bomb

- Flamethrower

- Pain Split

<s></s>Weezing vs. Azumarill <e></e>

0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 204-242 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (OHKO after Belly)

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 219-258 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Azu is slower in most cases if not heavily invested in SPD )

<s></s>Weezing vs. Gyarados<e></e>

0 SpA Weezing Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 224-268 (67.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (8/10 cases its OHKO in PRO)

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 132-156 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 88-104 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 12.2% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 72-85 (21.5 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recover

<s></s>Weezing vs. Scizor

<e></e>0 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 272-324 (79.3 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (8/10 cases its OHKO in PRO)

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

<s></s>Weezing vs. Talonflame<e></e>

0 SpA Weezing Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 154-182 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 109-129 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

<s></s>Weezing vs. Tangrowth<e></e>

0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 294-348 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 59-69 (17.6 - 20.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Black Sludge recovery

<s></s>Weezing vs. Weavile<e></e>

0 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 130-154 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 134-160 (40.1 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 105-125 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

<s></s>Weezing vs. Bisharp <e></e>

0 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 152-180 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 125-148 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 7.8% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Weezing is an overall okish tank and has some good checks in PRO for some meta pokemons, it is of course not a S+ tier smogon pokemon or whatever but in PRO it works perfectly fine and deserves its A- tier

</s><POST content="340736"><s></s>340736<e></e></POST> ambipom - technician fake out does not make a pokemon viable<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Ambipom @ Life Orb

Ability: Technician

EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Jolly Nature

- Fake Out

- Double Hit

- Low Kick

- Ice Punch

<s></s>Ambipom vs. Machamp<e></e>

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 129-152 (35.4 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 220-266 (60.4 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (9/10 cases its OHKO in PRO)

<s></s>Ambipom vs. Galvantula<e></e>

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 161-191 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO

<s></s>Ambipom vs. Garchomp<e></e>

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 369-437 (103.3 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

<s></s>Ambipom vs. Goodra<e></e>

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 142-169 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Ice Punch vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 239-283 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

<s></s>Ambipom vs. Medicham<e></e>

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham: 134-160 (51.3 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham: 234-276 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- approx. 25% chance to OHKO

<s></s>Ambipom vs. Togekiss<e></e>

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 110-133 (35.2 - 42.6%) -- 88.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 194-228 (62.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

<s></s>Ambipom vs. Mamoswine<e></e>

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 129-152 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 338-400 (93.6 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

<s></s>Ambipom vs. Tyranitar<e></e>

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 525-619 (153.9 - 181.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

<s></s>Ambipom vs. Excadrill<e></e>

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 79-94 (21.8 - 26%) -- 7.6% chance to 4HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 320-377 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

<s></s>Ambipom vs. Dragonite<e></e>

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 55-66 (17 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 369-437 (114.2 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ambipom is like weezing, of course not a S+ tier smogon pokemon but it does a good job in PRO and deserves in my opinion even a better tier than B

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

These are obviously all theoretical scenarios but they happen quite often in PRO and Ambipom has some good checks for a few meta pokemons as well as Weezing</r>

Han1996 · January 25, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

<t>i think excadrill should be a+ cause it becomes vulnerable when sand dies :3</t>

Idkup · January 25, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

</s><POST content="341368"><s></s>341368<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340736"><s></s>340736<e></e></POST> weezing - what exactly does this accomplish again, poison is an okay defensive typing i guess and levitate is nice but its damage output and bulk are just lacking
<e>
</e></QUOTE>

 
Weezing @ Leftovers 
Ability: Levitate 
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 6 SpA 
Bold Nature 
- Thunderbolt 
- Sludge Bomb 
- Flamethrower 
- Pain Split 
 
<s></s>Weezing vs. Azumarill <e></e> 
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 204-242 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (OHKO after Belly) 
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 219-258 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (Azu is slower in most cases if not heavily invested in SPD ) 
 
<s></s>Weezing vs. Gyarados<e></e> 
0 SpA Weezing Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 224-268 (67.6 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (8/10 cases its OHKO in PRO) 
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 132-156 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery 
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 88-104 (26.3 - 31.1%) -- 12.2% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery 
+1 252 Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 72-85 (21.5 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recover 
 
<s></s>Weezing vs. Scizor 
<e></e>0 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 272-324 (79.3 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (8/10 cases its OHKO in PRO) 
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery 
 
<s></s>Weezing vs. Talonflame<e></e> 
0 SpA Weezing Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 154-182 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO 
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 109-129 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery 
 
<s></s>Weezing vs. Tangrowth<e></e> 
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 294-348 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 59-69 (17.6 - 20.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Black Sludge recovery 
 
<s></s>Weezing vs. Weavile<e></e> 
0 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 130-154 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO 
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 134-160 (40.1 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery 
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 105-125 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery 
 
<s></s>Weezing vs. Bisharp <e></e> 
0 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 152-180 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 152-179 (45.5 - 53.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery 
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 125-148 (37.4 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery 
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Weezing: 109-130 (32.6 - 38.9%) -- 7.8% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery 
 
 
Weezing is an overall okish tank and has some good checks in PRO for some meta pokemons, it is of course not a S+ tier smogon pokemon or whatever but in PRO it works perfectly fine and deserves its A- tier
<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>
</s><POST content="340736"><s></s>340736<e></e></POST> ambipom - technician fake out does not make a pokemon viable<e>
</e></QUOTE>

Ambipom @ Life Orb 
Ability: Technician 
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe 
Jolly Nature 
- Fake Out 
- Double Hit 
- Low Kick 
- Ice Punch 
 
<s></s>Ambipom vs. Machamp<e></e> 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 129-152 (35.4 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 220-266 (60.4 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (9/10 cases its OHKO in PRO) 
 
<s></s>Ambipom vs. Galvantula<e></e> 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 161-191 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Galvantula: 280-330 (99.6 - 117.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO 
 
<s></s>Ambipom vs. Garchomp<e></e> 
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 369-437 (103.3 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
 
<s></s>Ambipom vs. Goodra<e></e> 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 142-169 (37.9 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Ice Punch vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 239-283 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
 
<s></s>Ambipom vs. Medicham<e></e> 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham: 134-160 (51.3 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham: 234-276 (89.6 - 105.7%) -- approx. 25% chance to OHKO 
 
<s></s>Ambipom vs. Togekiss<e></e> 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 110-133 (35.2 - 42.6%) -- 88.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 6 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 194-228 (62.1 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 
 
<s></s>Ambipom vs. Mamoswine<e></e> 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 129-152 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 338-400 (93.6 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO 
 
<s></s>Ambipom vs. Tyranitar<e></e> 
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 525-619 (153.9 - 181.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
 
<s></s>Ambipom vs. Excadrill<e></e> 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 79-94 (21.8 - 26%) -- 7.6% chance to 4HKO 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 320-377 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO 
 
<s></s>Ambipom vs. Dragonite<e></e> 
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 55-66 (17 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO 
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 369-437 (114.2 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
 
Ambipom is like weezing, of course not a S+ tier smogon pokemon but it does a good job in PRO and deserves in my opinion even a better tier than B 
 
 
 
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 
 
These are obviously all theoretical scenarios but they happen quite often in PRO and Ambipom has some good checks for a few meta pokemons as well as Weezing<e>

</e></QUOTE>

re: weezing - it's outclassed by tentacruel for most purposes, it's a decent mon yea but tenta takes down everything bar earthquake gyarados more reliably and isn't cm bait for clefable...

re: ambipom - you switch to something to tank the fake out and then pivot out immediately baiting an ineffective attack, rendering it essentially useless and granting you a free turn. furthermore, using galvantula and medicham for defensive calcs? and assuming it's ever going to get a low kick off on excadrill? past the first turn on the field ambipom is basically death fodder, especially with your set where it can hardly touch ghosts at all (like it or not, gengar is still a prominent force in the meta)</r>

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