Manaphy in ranked PVP

[Johncampita211]

Johncampita211 Blaziken was Banned Because it was technically "Uber" because of its ability. Just like Dugtrio's Areana trap. As For breloom it doesnt even need Sash to beat Manaphy. All it needs is 80 ev's in spedf to live any move Manaphy wants to throw at it. Baganha, i was never talking about 6v1 battle. I was just listing mons that could ohko it or wall it. They obviously have other purposes then just countering manaphy there's no such thing as a one trick Pokemon, and by your logic then i could name a few pokemon that would seem "bannable" in your eyes.

 

Like Serperior (which can live a ice beam and then take out manaphy) Most teams dont have one since it is only in the pve shop or boss rewards but there are still very good ones out there. A serperior can completely run through a team if your not careful. Just like manaphy, Serperior has its checks and balances such as ha azu.

 

In battle you should always think what mons can take out other mons. Is "random" mon even useful in this battle, can i sack it? I Think if i lose "this" mon i lose to "opponents" mon and he just sweeps me. But if i can take out this "oppenents" mon then my "mon" can 2 or one shot anything.

 

Im not saying you need to build a team around countering one mon. I am saying That in order to Learn to counter a mon you should either take the time knowing what it can do and which of your mons can take it out. I also recommend you play showdown with a friend using pro teams using manaphy. The best way to see what can take out manaphy is playing with it.

LOL you gonna put sp def in breloom ? Cmon. We all know that manaphy is op in rain team dont be blind even chansey and unaware clefable cant stop that manaphy.The only possible way to stop manaphy is to use hyper offense team (priority moves) but It can take down your atleast 2 or 3 poke or even your whole team if you let him tail glow in the rain with its ability hydration + rest .Every pokemon in PRO has a counter and checks. As of now manaphy is op because mega evolution is not coded yet(i know someday) and also gen. 7 is not in pro yet all of these can counter and check manaphy

[Johncampita211]

Rain is not near broken. It's just a noob sweeper that beats unskilled opponents quick. If you're up against an actual good player I'd say rain might even be bad. And @iceflake, learn the difference between a soft check and an actual counter. Like "As For breloom it doesnt even need Sash to beat Manaphy. All it needs is 80 ev's in spedf to live any move Manaphy wants to throw at it". HAHA. So let's picture the scenario real quick. The opponent switches in manaphy against your Gliscor. You need the discord to not get swept by another mon in the back, Manaphy either attacks or sets up while you switch to Breloom and you lose no matter which one the opponent chooses. If it has set up then you can't even revenge kill it. I'm genuinely wondering what your thought process was while writing your post if you even had one.

 

Serperior and Manaphy are not similar.

 

If you believe that something needs to be sacked every time Manaphy is brought it you're contradicting yourself since a meta where something needs to be sacked because of 1 mon that doesn't have a switch in is not healthy. Either that or you don't know how to build/steal good teams. "Im not saying you need to build a team around countering one mon". Except if you can literally get 1v6ed by a certain pokemon then maybe there is a problem with your team, especially since I can imagine the very few players with some IQ in this game who still pvp would abuse it if they cared. Basically being unstoppable because nobody is improving or using good teams except them which is uncompetetive. "The best way to see what can take out manaphy is playing with it." Yes dude, make those casuals use manaphy, stay in on Ferrothorn power whips without setting up and just ice beaming twice and think "oh Ferrothorn is an excellent counter!"

 

?XD

Yeah agree serperior and manaphy are not similar.

[Heroofthestreet]

I haven't read all the comments (as there are obviously too many of them), but the thing is, not that we only don't have the tools to adequately deal with manaphy (tons of good legendaries and all megas), the resources we have to deal with it are very limited. Let's say I want to use a serperior or latios to check it. For serperior i need to buy a black ms, grind for hours to get a h.a one which then turns out to be trash or decent at best. Let's say it's actually epic, still useless as it didn't receive hp fire or ground. For the other you need to fill the whole pokedex just to potentially get trash ivs again and then waste tons of money for reroll tickets which still doesn't guarantee it will be properly usable. That being said, in such a slow meta which lacks good scarfers and megas, base 100 speed for a really bulky and threatening mon is already too much. Not to mention, they added protean greninja out of nowhere while half of the legendaries from BW that were actually OU during that period are still missing in PRO (a quick reminder, manaphy was in ubers during BW). I haven't played the game for like half a year, yet surprisingly, even tho protean greninja has a few real counters (with which all it can actually deal depending on the coverage it's carrying) it dropped in usage, most likely just because for most of the people playing PRO conkeldurr being one of the most used mons that has access to a strong mach punch is actually a major dealbreaker (or for similar reasons). They haven't thought about the impact greninja would have for the meta then (didn't even want to hear about it being banned) and obviously they haven't learned from their old mistakes. As said previously, it is just pure luck people actually don't know how to team build about greninja properly, so it's not that threatening and it's dropping more and more. Same thing was happening with speed boost blaziken and dugtrio until people actually started abusing them more and more and until they nerfed talonflame. By this point i'm completely aware that whoever picks what the next legendary that will enter pvp will be has either no clue about the PRO pvp scene or just doesn't care about it at all

[Baganha]

I haven't read all the comments (as there are obviously too many of them), but the thing is, not that we only don't have the tools to adequately deal with manaphy (tons of good legendaries and all megas), the resources we have to deal with it are very limited. Let's say I want to use a serperior or latios to check it. For serperior i need to buy a black ms, grind for hours to get a h.a one which then turns out to be trash or decent at best. Let's say it's actually epic, still useless as it didn't receive hp fire or ground. For the other you need to fill the whole pokedex just to potentially get trash ivs again and then waste tons of money for reroll tickets which still doesn't guarantee it will be properly usable. That being said, in such a slow meta which lacks good scarfers and megas, base 100 speed for a really bulky and threatening mon is already too much. Not to mention, they added protean greninja out of nowhere while half of the legendaries from BW that were actually OU during that period are still missing in PRO (a quick reminder, manaphy was in ubers during BW). I haven't played the game for like half a year, yet surprisingly, even tho protean greninja has a few real counters (with which all it can actually deal depending on the coverage it's carrying) it dropped in usage, most likely just because for most of the people playing PRO conkeldurr being one of the most used mons that has access to a strong mach punch is actually a major dealbreaker (or for similar reasons). They haven't thought about the impact greninja would have for the meta then (didn't even want to hear about it being banned) and obviously they haven't learned from their old mistakes. As said previously, it is just pure luck people actually don't know how to team build about greninja properly, so it's not that threatening and it's dropping more and more. Same thing was happening with speed boost blaziken and dugtrio until people actually started abusing them more and more and until they nerfed talonflame. By this point i'm completely aware that whoever picks what the next legendary that will enter pvp will be has either no clue about the PRO pvp scene or just doesn't care about it at all

 

I believe a big part of the pvp scene is influenced by the pokemon's availability, i myself am guilty of this as i dont tend to grind for anything that is considered rare, i never tried or intend to in the future to grind for a froakie or snivy for example, and end up grinding for common mons that are good in pvp, like mamo, kingdra, pelipper, gengar, buying the rest of the fundamental mons for a cheap price (meaning they dont have the best stats).

However, the game does offer the tools you need to get anything you want that is pvp legal, it is up to you if you want to put the investment in it, some have better luck than others and get the godly mon they were looking for after 5 minutes, others take 5 hours to just get a decent one but you can skip the grind in its entirety if you're willing to buy the pokemon you want from someone else, the point is, its your decision if you want to put in the investment for it or not, this is a mmo game and i dont feel like i need to explain the whole gist about how its supposed to be grindy etc. Yeah its sucks most of the time, but thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Anyways i felt like writing this to clarify that i dont believe usage/availability (unless its an event exclusive mon) should be regarded as a means of pointing out the meta's flaws or explaining how a pokemon's counterplay is even more limited because the mons that deal with it are very rare, no one here is truly on equal footing with one another, but that doesnt mean there is a reason to bring it up for discussion, if that was the case then everyone should have the right to complain about it with the exception of the luckiest player on pro.

[Heroofthestreet]

I believe a big part of the pvp scene is influenced by the pokemon's availability, i myself am guilty of this as i dont tend to grind for anything that is considered rare, i never tried or intend to in the future to grind for a froakie or snivy for example, and end up grinding for common mons that are good in pvp, like mamo, kingdra, pelipper, gengar, buying the rest of the fundamental mons for a cheap price (meaning they dont have the best stats).

However, the game does offer the tools you need to get anything you want that is pvp legal, it is up to you if you want to put the investment in it, some have better luck than others and get the godly mon they were looking for after 5 minutes, others take 5 hours to just get a decent one but you can skip the grind in its entirety if you're willing to buy the pokemon you want from someone else, the point is, its your decision if you want to put in the investment for it or not, this is a mmo game and i dont feel like i need to explain the whole gist about how its supposed to be grindy etc. Yeah its sucks most of the time, but thats the way the cookie crumbles.

Anyways i felt like writing this to clarify that i dont believe usage/availability (unless its an event exclusive mon) should be regarded as a means of pointing out the meta's flaws or explaining how a pokemon's counterplay is even more limited because the mons that deal with it are very rare, no one here is truly on equal footing with one another, but that doesnt mean there is a reason to bring it up for discussion, if that was the case then everyone should have the right to complain about it with the exception of the luckiest player on pro.

 

Well yeah. It is a MMO game and therefore it should be grindy (personally after some time i started doing the same thing you do, farming only low tier mons, tier 7 at most and that happens like once or twice during a year), but definitely not as much as it is right now as that's what's actually repelling both the vets and the newbies to continue playing it. For most of the time, farming in general is not really grateful (looking at the time invested into it compared with the outcome), so with adding more and more relevant stuff that were missing before, it becomes harder for the vets like me to keep up with the game, whereas at the same time the game doesn't encourage newbies to even enter the fight with the vets, as there's potentially too much relevant stuff that needs to be farmed or grinded for, while the economy is ridiculous right now (not even epic mons going for 5-10M just because they're top meta or good for the meta, but rare). Furthermore, a newbie usually doesn't have the proper knowledge (unless they have previous experience, like from showdown) to build the right team and often even the best players need to test their teams to see whether they're actually usable for laddering or not. That being said, a newbie will need to invest tons of time/money for mons that in the end will actually prove not to be viable, or at least not with the other mons he has gathered. By this point, you can already see how discouraging this for someone to continue is (if he wants to enter competitive pvp). In my opinion, everyone should be able to use mons like h.a hp fire serperior that has enough spd ivs to outspeed gengar if they feel like, but often you won't even find anyone selling them and if they do, be sure they'll abuse the laws of supply and demand at most, often even writing they can cancel the auction if it doesn't reach 10m which is also ridiculous and needs to be changed as that's actually not how auctions in real life go/work. Personally i'd implement something like nature rerolls for all mons, which would cost around 1m or idk how much pvp coins. That would still make the game grindy (not in a sick way tho), but also give everyone a chance to have epic/godly high tier mons. I'm aware that all i have written now has gone too much off topic, but i couldn't help myself and felt the urge to write it. If the goal of the game developers is to amass new players and encourage them to keep playing the game (while also preserving the interest of vets to continue playing it as well instead of making them quit) then imo the strategy of developing the game is going towards the wrong direction (which we can from present evidence witness, as the amount of active people in both servers is constantly dropping) and some radical changes should seriously be considered to be made

[Starkrey]

i also agree with you, and im also going to stop playing until we either ban manaphy, or get the mons we need to face him (toxapex, mega venusaur, or tapu fini - lele, etc)

 

Nothing to add.

 

People are abusing manaphy since one or 2 months already, and getting 90%+ winrates/other huge unexplainable winrates or unworthy Rank 1's out of it.

Rest and Manaphy in rain, or double screens manaphy is just a pain and is actually broken since we haven't the necessary mons to face it yet. We actually have a few (Ferrothorn Power Whip, Serperior even if it doesnt really OKHO manaphy and can't come on it freely, it also dies to ice beam of course, some revenge killers once you decided which pokemon you are gonna sacrify or take a risk with) but being absolutly forced to play them with specific sets in every team in order to not be swept or get 2/3 mons killed by manaphy is just ridiculous and restricts too much team building, and fun of course, not mentionning this pokemon is actually braindead to play.

You also can't play a stall team in this meta either, because the usual manaphy counters and spedef walls/checks like chansey are just absolutely useless against rest and hydration under rain.

Basically kills at least one pokemon each game and can sweep your whole team in end-game if your counters or revenge killers are dead, this pokemon is just too much of a threat for this PRO Meta, if looking at the current winrates of the players abusing it isn't enough, then it is a lost cause.

Edited March 8, 2019 by StarkRey

[Baganha]

Well yeah. It is a MMO game and therefore it should be grindy (personally after some time i started doing the same thing you do, farming only low tier mons, tier 7 at most and that happens like once or twice during a year), but definitely not as much as it is right now as that's what's actually repelling both the vets and the newbies to continue playing it. For most of the time, farming in general is not really grateful (looking at the time invested into it compared with the outcome), so with adding more and more relevant stuff that were missing before, it becomes harder for the vets like me to keep up with the game, whereas at the same time the game doesn't encourage newbies to even enter the fight with the vets, as there's potentially too much relevant stuff that needs to be farmed or grinded for, while the economy is ridiculous right now (not even epic mons going for 5-10M just because they're top meta or good for the meta, but rare). Furthermore, a newbie usually doesn't have the proper knowledge (unless they have previous experience, like from showdown) to build the right team and often even the best players need to test their teams to see whether they're actually usable for laddering or not. That being said, a newbie will need to invest tons of time/money for mons that in the end will actually prove not to be viable, or at least not with the other mons he has gathered. By this point, you can already see how discouraging this for someone to continue is (if he wants to enter competitive pvp). In my opinion, everyone should be able to use mons like h.a hp fire serperior that has enough spd ivs to outspeed gengar if they feel like, but often you won't even find anyone selling them and if they do, be sure they'll abuse the laws of supply and demand at most, often even writing they can cancel the auction if it doesn't reach 10m which is also ridiculous and needs to be changed as that's actually not how auctions in real life go/work. Personally i'd implement something like nature rerolls for all mons, which would cost around 1m or idk how much pvp coins. That would still make the game grindy (not in a sick way tho), but also give everyone a chance to have epic/godly high tier mons. I'm aware that all i have written now has gone too much off topic, but i couldn't help myself and felt the urge to write it. If the goal of the game developers is to amass new players and encourage them to keep playing the game (while also preserving the interest of vets to continue playing it as well instead of making them quit) then imo the strategy of developing the game is going towards the wrong direction (which we can from present evidence witness, as the amount of active people in both servers is constantly dropping) and some radical changes should seriously be considered to be made

 

I definitely get where you are coming from, but you also have to see this in the devs prespective, the devs definitely want this game to be an MMO at its core, PVP in fact seems to be considered something like endgame, for players who are done with the game so to speak, they wouldn't change anything (relating to spawns/rarity tiers etc.) just so it influences pvp, this has alrady been stated by prehax.

 

Giving every player the power to get the perfect pokemon that they want kind of loses the whole point of it being a MMO, at this point it just becomes showdown with some grinding prior to it, or to some extent a regular pokemon game. Thats something that should not be lost if youre estabilishing yourself pretty hard on a specific game genre like pro does.

 

While nature rerolls for regular mons looks like a great idea it would definitely not be good in the long run, the standards for a pvp pokemon would be much higher, meaning there would also be less market for those who are just selling decent pokemon, most of which are newbies so it would be harder for them to get in the game. This would also favor top pvp players even more, making it even harder to compete for high placements each season if you werent appart of it in the beginning. Also i dont see how could this very profitable for the devs as well, which whether you like it or not, as always gotta be in consideration.

 

This will be my last post regarding this issue as i dont want to deviate more than i already have and want focus on this thread's main subject.

[Eltyyy]

No offense but mega venu and toxapex arent exactly manaphy counters either, manaphy uses psychic :] and i dont think its ban worthy even tho its annoying, unaware works and there are other mons that can check manaphy, while its annoying to revenge kill coz of its bulk its also pretty possible to do with what we have pretty easily, i dont see manaphy being OP, top tier / strong yeah for sure, but in no way does it strike me as OP or "Unbeatable", its just like many other setup mons, bad players will get destroyed by it for the most part and good players will find the way to play around it or build around it/against it

[Baganha]

No offense but mega venu and toxapex arent exactly manaphy counters either, manaphy uses psychic :] and i dont think its ban worthy even tho its annoying, unaware works and there are other mons that can check manaphy, while its annoying to revenge kill coz of its bulk its also pretty possible to do with what we have pretty easily, i dont see manaphy being OP, top tier / strong yeah for sure, but in no way does it strike me as OP or "Unbeatable", its just like many other setup mons, bad players will get destroyed by it for the most part and good players will find the way to play around it or build around it/against it

 

Unaware clef works as a solid counter but it goes without saying just because that particular set exist doesnt make manaphy balanced. Revenge killing it isnt an impossible job but again it is pretty limited the amount of things that effectively check it, it shouldnt take a pokemon to be "unbeatable" for it to be considered broken, mons like unburden hawlucha are an example of this as they have their fair share of counterplay but its setup just allows it to bypass most of ther meta with ease cleaning 2-3 mons if not entire teams, thats the main diference from manaphy and any other regular setup mon in the current meta.

[Idkup]

Unaware clef works as a solid counter but it goes without saying just because that particular set exist doesnt make manaphy balanced. Revenge killing it isnt an impossible job but again it is pretty limited the amount of things that effectively check it, it shouldnt take a pokemon to be "unbeatable" for it to be considered broken, mons like unburden hawlucha are an example of this as they have their fair share of counterplay but its setup just allows it to bypass most of ther meta with ease cleaning 2-3 mons if not entire teams, thats the main diference from manaphy and any other regular setup mon in the current meta.

Unburden is only banned because it does not work correctly.