Manaphy in ranked PVP

[Baganha]

Manaphy is outright bad against offense unless it has support in the form of Sticky Web or Baton Passed Speed. It doesn't hit particularly hard without the Tail Glow, and offensive pressure can often prevent it from accomplishing much of anything.

 

Full Stall is not instant-lose into Manaphy any more than it is instant-lose into stallbreaker Togekiss or Gliscor. In fact, Toxic Chansey has a reasonable chance against Manaphy (outside of the rain), while your best response to Heal Bell Togekiss is, quite literally, disconnecting. Seeing as a stallbreaker is more or less mandatory on stall anyways (in order to not get flat 6-0'd by the aforementioned threats), the unique challenge that Manaphy presents is mostly due to its speed tier (ignoring Rain Dance Hydration Rest sets, which functionally are dealt with in similar manner to CroCune).

 

I can see the argument for Manaphy being unhealthy. TG 3 Attacks is excellent, quite possibly the best Pokemon in the game, to have when queueing into slow balance or semistall lacking Toxic Chansey; Rain Dance sets annihilate unprepared stall. Manaphy wins some matchups it has no business winning (eg. Ferrothorn sans Power Whip), and whenever it's seen in Team Preview your Pokemon slower than Manaphy can quickly become liabilities. But, the argument presented that you have to run Calm Mind Unaware Clefable to reliably answer it is simply untrue, and should not be used as a basis for any action against Manaphy, considering the similar resume of other setup stallbreakers, especially Nasty Plot Heal Bell Togekiss.

 

However, considering that slow balance is still the archetype of choice for many players, and that significant amounts of those same players achieve decent ladder results, Manaphy is not yet causing the polarization which would warrant a ban in my eyes. The metagame being forced to adapt is not a bad thing.

 

I really cant see how manaphy is outright bad against offense in general, taking rain into account and most offense pokemon used dont have great speed tiers and having to rely on priority to damage it, which all of it can be recovered with rest, latios, raikou, serp and weather abusers seem to me the most reliable checks to this mon and potential scarfers like togekiss or breloom, (to which togekiss has to pray for it to flinch).

 

Regarding having to use the clefable set so you deal with manaphy, that was a point i was trying to make as the poster only mentioned unaware cm clef as a means to "not lose" to manaphy, i simply pointed out that having 1 mon that can deal with x shouldnt be a reason for it to be kept in the tier, im aware there are more measures that can deal with it has aformentioned in earlier posts.

 

The thing with manaphy is that it doesnt need much deviation from its sets to be good at any MU, togekiss like you mentioned is probably the best stallbreaker there is, your only hope is to rely on air slash not flinching your mantine or that clef set with hopes of pp stalling it, but if you want a togekiss that is reliable to deal with faster/frailer teams you need to run a completely diferent set. Manaphy just runs the same thing (regarding the tg set not cm), subbing one or two moves and maybe a slightly diferent ev spread, youre getting all of these roles of a wallbreaker, stallbreaker, sweeper, and even revenge killer, if the MU is too passive, in one package, just one set is capable of all of this, i dont think any other mon on pro can do this, or at least not to the extent as manaphy.

 

I guess manaphy's presence isnt as much as i thought previously, as in this season ive yet to face one (much to my relief lol) i guess i just got a bit unlucky with the MU previously as they werent THAT uncommon before, and while slow balance might still have success ive also heard from someone that people were getting ridiculous results and win% who have no business in doing so thanks to manaphy, tho it wasnt backed up by any evidence so take that as you will. However, like ive said i dont think small usage equates in being a balanced mon.

 

As a final note, most of you probably already know by now but PRO is reworking and updating PVP, making all moves, items, abilities and megas usable, with that said once that update comes, my opinion regarding manaphy will most likely change as with the addition of megas such as lopunny, manectric, zard y, alakazam, latis and even metagross which will definitely ease up the matchup for offensive teams and increasing its checks as well, these in particular being more reliable as well. Mega gardevoir and mawile will also outclass manaphy as a primary wallbreaker (not stallbreaker) due to its immediate firepower and no need of setup. This means that continuing this thread may be pointless from here on out, at least for me, that being said i wanna thank to all the people who have partaken and given their opinions on this thread, i've learned a lot and definitely improved as a player talking to all of you, if anyone still wants to participate in this discussion then by all means do so, ill still try to be as responsive as possible for the time being.

[Idkup]

TG 3 Attacks requires heavy support to be as effective against stall as this thread would suggest, due to the existence of Toxic Chansey, which when played well shuts down standard Manaphy and (obviously) possesses much more staying power than the Manaphy. If you take the rain into account, Choice Specs Kingdra is more threatening to offense than Manaphy ever is, owing precisely to the lack of ability to revenge kill without priority. While Manaphy is fast, it doesn't outspeed almost every scarfer along with frail fastmons which anchor offense (eg. Gengar, Latios as you point out).

 

Mantine is not viable on stall (though this is a different argument), and neither is dodging a couple of Air Slash flinches going to save stall from Stallbreaker Togekiss - it carries Heal Bell and Roost. Correctly EV'd, weaker variants of Togekiss is far from a liability against offense, though owing more to its defensive utility than offensive power (like Manaphy).

 

The thing about the versatility of Tail Glow Manaphy is that you still have to choose in the teambuilder, well before Team Preview, what you want to do better against. There is no difference between 'a few changes in EVs' and 'replacing the Pokemon entirely' - what is important is the impact on matchups. For example, the choice between HP Fire, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball makes an incredibly large difference in what you are able to hit.

 

Individuals get ridiculous results with astonishing regularity. That is no grounds for banning a Pokemon entirely: they're either getting lucky in the queue or genuinely skilled. For reference, I am at an 80% winrate in tournaments with a team running 4 dragons, and at an 100% winrate in tournaments with a team unironically running Corsola.

[Baganha]

TG 3 Attacks requires heavy support to be as effective against stall as this thread would suggest, due to the existence of Toxic Chansey, which when played well shuts down standard Manaphy and (obviously) possesses much more staying power than the Manaphy. If you take the rain into account, Choice Specs Kingdra is more threatening to offense than Manaphy ever is, owing precisely to the lack of ability to revenge kill without priority. While Manaphy is fast, it doesn't outspeed almost every scarfer along with frail fastmons which anchor offense (eg. Gengar, Latios as you point out).

 

Mantine is not viable on stall (though this is a different argument), and neither is dodging a couple of Air Slash flinches going to save stall from Stallbreaker Togekiss - it carries Heal Bell and Roost. Correctly EV'd, weaker variants of Togekiss is far from a liability against offense, though owing more to its defensive utility than offensive power (like Manaphy).

 

The thing about the versatility of Tail Glow Manaphy is that you still have to choose in the teambuilder, well before Team Preview, what you want to do better against. There is no difference between 'a few changes in EVs' and 'replacing the Pokemon entirely' - what is important is the impact on matchups. For example, the choice between HP Fire, Ice Beam, and Energy Ball makes an incredibly large difference in what you are able to hit.

 

Individuals get ridiculous results with astonishing regularity. That is no grounds for banning a Pokemon entirely: they're either getting lucky in the queue or genuinely skilled. For reference, I am at an 80% winrate in tournaments with a team running 4 dragons, and at an 100% winrate in tournaments with a team unironically running Corsola.

 

I definitely understand your take on this, and empathize a lot more your pov, i guess at this point both of us will just disagree with our views in the requirements for a pokemon to be considered broken, while it cant accomplish everything with just ONE single set and doesnt excel at every single playstyle/matchup, manaphy has all the tools to be devastating for the tier and personally that is enough for me to consider it broken, having great synergy with a mon like kingdra for example who deal fantastically against offensive MU, it just a core too potent to deal with, i truly think its overwhelming.

 

While i still keep my doubts in people getting insane results with manaphy, since no evidence has been provided, i dont believe it's something it should be taken lightly (again as long as this claim is provided with sufficient evidence), a similar situation happened on smogon with baton pass and dugtrio (dugtrio stall to be exact) where a lot of the skill gap seemed to be missing and a lot people on the ladder got insane elos and gxe records, most of which werent even known, in tours dugtrio stall was spammed throughout its existence and held an insane record, even when people where expecting this matchup, they still lost and we're talking about tour players, being known to be the most competent in the game. I know its not fair comparing manaphy with bp/duggy but if it is truly affecting the rating the way its prtrayed to be, then i think it is a problem, as a competitive game should maintain a balanced skill gap.

[Aggs]

My take on manaphy is that it is a good pokemon. Base 100 all around isnt anything to scoff at, and pure water is a great type. Setup has always been really nice for beating stall teams before manaphy, and after. But, as most setup mons deal with, manaphy has 4 move syndrome. There will always be some type of fat mon that will be an annoyance for manaphy sweepers, and there is no helping it. A Cm/rest/scald/rain dance set that is bulkier will auto-lose to grass types with leech seed and grass stab(namely giga drain) or some type of water immunity (storm drain, water absorb, dry skin), and a cm set without rest or rain dance loses survivability. These are the 1v1s though, which is not always enough to consider a mon bad or good definitely.

 

Archetypes of teams are meant to check each other, and each archetype is at some inhererent advantage/disadvantage vs another. H.O. teams have a disadvantage vs weather, Stall vs Setup, weather vs stall, balance vs H.O., or something along those lines ( and by no means are any of these right because I said so, but rather an example of existing archetypes I believe have these inherent +/- vs other teams). This doesn't mean by any criteria that H.O. CANNOT beat weather and whatnot, but it is harder to. The factors of leads, reads, and set choices are too varied to apply to a paper analysis of manaphy. In this light, it is a lot harder to be able to decide how to deal with the issue.

 

Balance Setup, for an example, running a Timid 3 attacks TG mana vs H.O. Manaphy is thick, but it isn't dummy thick, which, in my opinion, gives H.O. an inherent advantage when manaphy is in. Your balance core will usually get overwhelmed by the H.O. and not given a chance to heal/properly check the other team. Unless there is 0 priority and no mons faster than manaphy, it isn't going to have the chance to tail glow to effectively fill the role of a sweeper.

 

Team preview is meant to let you gather your thoughts on how to handle what you think the opponent's team is, and assess what members of your team will be win conditions, and how to meet those conditions. That is, what I believe to essentially be, competitive pokemon.

 

Whether or not you want to use your favorite archetype, the point is, your favorite archetype will not always be meta. There are competitive archetypes that are more suited for beating others that aren't as geared for that. When you pick up an archetype, you should learns the ins and outs, and what you want to incorporate to not lose to another archetype. You should also know what that archetype will have a disadvantage against, and not call for a ban because you lose more often than not. Stall and bulkier teams will inherently lose to manaphy because they cannot help but lose no less than 2 to 3 mons against a boosted move. This also applies to picking the pokemon for the archetype. There will be sets of mons that will be automatically useless on team preview, and may not be utilized in a match unless the counter(s) are taken care of. You should not only know that those counters could be encountered, but also if, and how, you can properly deal with that counter(s) and their support.

 

Overall standpoint : Don't Ban.

edit: just some spelling checks

Edited March 16, 2019 by Aggs

[Dangarangs]

Manaphy is a powerful pokemon that's capable of sweeping any unprepared team.

That being said it's not unstoppable and can be dealt with if always prepared for it. I think the real issue here is that it's an event/legendary. On top of the fact that the game has a small playerbase and an even smaller pvp base, it will probably need to be rerolled making the curve of pvp even more solidified against upcoming or new players that may wish to pvp.

I dont see it as a good poke as far as keeping the meta game healthy and unless the pokemon is obtainable like greninja or other legendaries, I vote: Ban

Edit: I wasn't aware that it was available to everyone. New vote: git gud

Edited March 16, 2019 by dangarangs

[Baganha]

Idk why people just started putting their "votes" on this thread, this isnt a voting thread just a discussion one, unless thatr just a simple way you want to clarify your opinion then i guess its fine by me.

[Dangarangs]

Idk why people just started putting their "votes" on this thread, this isnt a voting thread just a discussion one, unless thatr just a simple way you want to clarify your opinion then i guess its fine by me.

I vote ban

[Aggs]

Idk why people just started putting their "votes" on this thread, this isnt a voting thread just a discussion one, unless thatr just a simple way you want to clarify your opinion then i guess its fine by me.

 

I think you missed my point. The problem isn't that manaphy is broken, it is that people who, I believe, frequently use slower teams are discussing it's place in the meta, and are skewing it to be a beast, which isn't true. It's good, yes. But broken and ban worthy? No. There are a lot of anecdotes here (on both sides) that don't quite add up.

Point is, know that an archetype is weak to another, and either adapt or at least accept that the archetype has that weakness. Along with that, the players playing also matters. Paper analysis isn't enough.

[Baganha]

I think you missed my point. The problem isn't that manaphy is broken, it is that people who, I believe, frequently use slower teams are discussing it's place in the meta, and are skewing it to be a beast, which isn't true. It's good, yes. But broken and ban worthy? No. There are a lot of anecdotes here (on both sides) that don't quite add up.

Point is, know that an archetype is weak to another, and either adapt or at least accept that the archetype has that weakness. Along with that, the players playing also matters. Paper analysis isn't enough.

 

Im am quite aware that manaphy doesnt excel in every existent playstyle, ive also mentioned before, that, in my opinion, a pokemon doesnt require to be absolutely godly at every MU for it to be considered broken, every mon clearly has its unfavorable MUs, even mons that got banned before, this might be a unfair comparison to some but since PRO seems to only take action to what smogon does i feel like its more than fair, zygarde all by itself doesnt seem to be a stellar mon by any means with maybe the exception of cb sets depending on the MU, stall could stop it with unaware clef + helmet tang, the most annoying set to stall was probably sub toxic however it was still checked by helmet hp ice tang, balance was the mu that struggled the most against him but with solid cores between hippo, ww skarm or bulu it wasnt a dictated 6-0 for zygarde on turn 1, from bulky offense to HO, all had the tools to actually break zygarde's natural bulk, whether it was ash gren, mega medicham, mega diancie, mega swampert, mega hera and even buzzwole. What really took zygarde to the edge was its versatility but more importantly its sinergy with the team, its MU against more offensive teams would easily be much better if it's behind screens for example, its stall MU would get better if it was paired up with something like lele to pressure the teams defensive backbone or abuse phys def tang switchins, with balance something like sd z-kart was very popular paired up with zygarde, as it was able to open holes for zygarde to just clean up and finish the game.

 

The point im trying to make here is that i believe manaphy is being judged at a very superficial level, has if its on a vacuum, neglecting its influence just because its not the reason its winning every game. This is the mon who gives rain its stallbreaking power, rain whom of which is incredibly good against offensive teams, who are the archtype manaphy struggles the most, this pretty much gives rain prefect sinergy against every playstyle, on HO teams it does the same, easing up its MU against bulkier teams, giving them an opening for a potential sweep, on Balance/BO it also fits incredibly well, as these teams tend to do well against faster, more offensive MUs, this all is accomplishable because of manaphy. Its imperfections and faults are existent, however i dont think because a pokemon as them it should be considered not broken, thats pretty much my opinion.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Baganha

[Johncampita211]

Bump