Spawn Complaint

[Sympatoche]

why you delete constructive arguments ?

[Ghabra]

1 hour ago, Shinohara said:

Thread has been created exactly to hear community. If you think about it, if no one would care then you would not be able to even see this thread.

Okay first thing, we cannot exactly complain about the spawn rarity if we do not know the spawn rarity. I understand what Qeight suggested is an upgrade according to him and the rest of the staff and there is nothing wrong with that , but that doesn't leave much room for criticism now does it? The rates have always been obscure to the player base so we really cannot complain about that even if we wanted , I'm pretty sure shadow buffs / nerfs to spawn rates happen all the time without players knowing .

 

The concept of this topic in itself is flawed , no offense but you're just trying to give us the illusion of having the freedom to criticize this topic . By this , I do not mean that the staff are using manipulative tactics , but literally no one in the player base has enough experience to be able to criticize Qeight's work . Unless he messed up with something BIG TIME , no one's opinion is more valuable than his opinion  seeing how much he worked for this game , the efforts are much appreciated.

 

But , what we can criticize is how poorly this was handled , its all summed up in what @makeitwitchu said earlier and what was deleted , which brings up my next point.

 

1 hour ago, Shinohara said:

We accept both disagreement and agreement when it comes to community, the important thing is just providing a clear, transparent and honest feedback/opinion in a respectful way.

 

I'm sorry you say transparent feedback ,  but how is it transparent feedback if constructive and valid criticism it's locked behind  General Complaint Area . What kind of president has a private meeting with a news reporter about to interview him , and then all what was said is classified information?

 

1 hour ago, Shinohara said:

Also do remember that many disagreeing with something or many agreeing with something doesn't mean that they are the one in the right. It's not numbers that matters, but facts and evidences and the way they are provided.

Yes this is true but arguments and feedback build upon each other. My arguments might be flawed , but they might be complement by the next person's argument.  I might have missed an important point but another person might use my ideas as a basis for building a stronger thesis. 

At this point pro's community is like a miniature society. And you cannot have a society without having the press and the media. What you're doing is isolating the press and the media from the people , whose sole job is to represent the people .

 

I understand that disrespectful and rude comments deserve to be deleted and punished , but what @makeitwitchu said earlier was on point. It's not off topic , it was spot on. He did not criticize or undermine the job the staff team or Qeight did , he just criticized the way this whole situation was handled , and what better place to do it than on the topic itself?

 

 

1 hour ago, Shinohara said:

Please, keep this thread related to the Spawn Change/Update and if you have any other complaint related to anything else use the correct subforum General Complaint Area

 

As a last note , no offense , but a society cannot work if the judge , the jury and the executioner are all handled by the same entity.

 

Spoiler

Delete this and warn me already , my body is ready.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Ghabra

[Shinohara]

1 hour ago, Ghabra said:

 

 

Yes this is true but arguments and feedback build upon each other. My arguments might be flawed , but they might be complement by the next person's argument.  I might have missed an important point but another person might use my ideas as a basis for building a stronger thesis. 

At this point pro's community is like a miniature society. And you cannot have a society without having the press and the media. What you're doing is isolating the press and the media from the people , whose sole job is to represent the people .

 

I understand that disrespectful and rude comments deserve to be deleted and punished , but what @makeitwitchu said earlier was on point. It's not off topic , it was spot on. He did not criticize or undermine the job the staff team or Qeight did , he just criticized the way this whole situation was handled , and what better place to do it than on the topic itself?

 

 

 

As a last note , no offense , but a society cannot work if the judge , the jury and the executioner are all handled by the same entity.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Delete this and warn me already , my body is ready.

 

 

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I'm sorry you say transparent feedback ,  but how is it transparent feedback if constructive and valid criticism it's locked behind  General Complaint Area . What kind of president has a private meeting with a news reporter about to interview him , and then all what was said is classified information?

 

Lets begin by saying that transparent feedback means an honest and direct feedback shared, regardless if positive or negative, however absolutely done in a respectful way. No disrespect is tolerated on PRO or even IRL if the one that does it just fill you with insult at the same time, as that's not productive and also annoying and disrespectful.

 

Really important is that what you fail to understand is that what is locked behind General Complaint Are is simply stuff that do not belong here, stuff that is off topic.

If you talk only about the spawn-update, as that's the context and the topic, then this is the correct place to do that.

If you talk about how much staff doesn't listen to community or the relationship staff-player (like makeitwitchu did in 99% of his post) then this is not the place for you and General Complaint Area is.

 

It's always important to keep the threads in-topic and therefore avoiding off topic, as they damage the communication and lead to confusion and unorganized things. 

 

Your interviewer example is simply based on the wrong assumption on how an interview works, but that's totally wrong.

You might be unaware of that, but interviews (at least the one done good and not beginner-inexperienced people) are scheduled not only for what regard times but also for what regard topic.

If an interviewer schedules an interview for a new Satellite, the interviewer in the middle of it cannot start to ask things about football as that is unprofessional, out of topic, and also disrespectful toward the person being interviewed.

 

 

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At this point pro's community is like a miniature society. And you cannot have a society without having the press and the media. What you're doing is isolating the press and the media from the people , whose sole job is to represent the people .

 

Hard to say that PRO is a society, that's a good misunderstanding. Having a society would mean people can actually vote for changes, but this is not something that ANY GAME does.

League Of Legend is the most played game, however its board (forum) is dead and the game itself doesn't offer a real way to have community affect the decisions taken by staff. The same goes for 95% of the other existing games.

 

If you ask me what PRO is (on a changes context), then I can tell you that PRO is literally a game run by a Staff Team that takes decision with the intention to improve it.

Decisions are taken only by the Staff Team, and this is important to point out as it's something that many misses and try to force us to obey to their requests.

 

However, the fact that Staff do take the decision and we do not blindly obey to community orders (like a lot of people try to make us do and insult later if we don't) doesn't mean that we do not appreciate the community and hear them.

It is in fact super appreciated to have people trying to help and contribute by providing ideas and feedback to improve the game. We have A LOT of things in the game that have been implemented only cause players suggested it and staff/devs found them interesting.

Those things are in all the department, even in PVP where the bans were the "recent" bans (greninja, aegislash, etc) were decided thanks to the experienced PVP players we have and them providing arguments and evidences, in a respectful way, to explain their point of view.

 

Unfortunately, and no offense is intended, a good portion of the community has a really terrible mindset where what they think is: "I say staff should do X. If Staff does not do X then it means they don't listen to me.", but this is honestly an immature mindset and also totally wrong.

If it would be for 80% of the community, event maps would be 3x3 maps where we gift legendaries so they can be happy, this cause a lot of people like to have things served on a gold plate.

 

Sometimes, as a staff of any game or a CEO of any company, you are just forced to take decisions that might not necessarily liked by everyone and that's done for the sake of the game itself/the project itself as if you think that's the correct direction it has to take and the one it will benefit the most from.

It is true that there is no game without its community, but at the same time there is no community without a good game.

 

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but literally no one in the player base has enough experience to be able to criticize Qeight's work . Unless he messed up with something BIG TIME , no one's opinion is more valuable than his opinion  seeing how much he worked for this game , the efforts are much appreciated.

 

I do agree and disagree here at the same time. Yes, Qeight is the person on PRO that has the most experience in terms of spawns and this include both how they works from A to Z 100% as well how to edit them (You can find a really big changelog here ( OLD SPWAN CHANGELOG).

 

However, this doesn't mean that the community is not able to judge it. Or better, community is not able to judge it if no detailed explanation is given, however he dedicated two really long posts that also contains a lot of knowledge on how spawns work and why they are done in a specific way, all of that to help user understand why the change happened.

 

This means that the community can effectively read that post and understand from there, and ask, with respect, questions in case something is not clear enough.

This absolutely does not mean the user will be on the same level of Prehax, cause a lot of knowledge is obtained through experience, but at the same time the user will definitely have a cleaner  understanding on the whole thing.

 

However, you tell me that no one can argue back due to that. How would you have handled that?
Like, if you tell me that people can't counter-argue (although I have already expressed above my thought about it), how exactly would have you handled it?

If you say that you can't counter-argue, then the only solutions I see are either announcing the change and that's it or not doing the change at all (which doesn't seem fair to not do that only for that reason).

However, I will appreciate if you can share your way to handle that since no one is perfect

 

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 the jury and the executioner are all handled by the same entity.

 

This is exactly the point. There is no jury, cause a jury IRL actually have power on things like the outcome of a case, however PRO community has no power over what decision is taken by staff.

Having a jury would imply having people that have actually power given by law/rules, but that's not how PRO works.

 

However, as said above, it is in fact super appreciated to have people trying to help and contribute by providing ideas and feedback to improve the game. And I can assure you that community opinion is really valued and has effectively the ability to change the outcome of a case or a change/update (see Metagross ban, for example); however, this is done out of respect and kindness from staff but absolutely not cause the community has any real power to do or force it.

 

So, there is no Jury. As for executioners, I think that's just a wrong term in general.

 

 

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Delete this and warn me already , my body is ready.

 

Unnecessary to do so this time. makeitwitchu post was NOT deleted but just moved as that was a general complaint than a complaint about spawns, which included as well things like insults such as terms like "staling, dictator, leader" used to insults and that were not providing any help.

 

However, I do invite you to make a general complaint post if you'll still want to discuss about relationship staff-users in details.

However your post this time was not really off topic, or at least not to a point to be removed.

[Makeitwitchu]

Just to clarify: the Stalin joke came AFTER you moved the post to a private area where the community would not be able to further read it and was born out of frustration with the way you handled my criticism. That does not make my comment right, and I apologise for any offense it may have caused, but claiming it was part of my original, perfectly respectful post, is false. Do not justify your burying of my post by pointing towards my the comments I made after the fact. That makes no sense and only serves your preconceived notions. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by makeitwitchu

[Pispi13]

42 minutes ago, Shinohara said:

Unnecessary to do so this time. makeitwitchu post was NOT deleted but just moved as that was a general complaint than a complaint about spawns, which included as well things like insults such as terms like "staling, dictator, leader" used to insults and that were not providing any help.

The stalin comment was only made after wammys post was moved . So its not true that the original one included such things 

[Shinohara]

1 hour ago, Pispi13 said:

The stalin comment was only made after wammys post was moved . So its not true that the original one included such things 

 

Wammys post addressed these points:

 

• Relationship staff player
• Hierarchical position
• Community feedback ignore
• Complaint toward Qeight's words

All of these are valid points to be discussed and addressed properly (no one ever said that his complaint was wrong, bad or similar), and none of that went even minimally close to discuss spawns if not for a sentence related to Qeight's spawn knowledge.

Not containing anything minimally related to this post, but being a general complaint related to the general situation and relationship staff-players, it became off topic in this context and was simply moved in the correct section.

 

The movement was correct; If a thread related to Metagross ban and why it should be banned or why it should NOT be banned, the post should contain arguments that works around those and nothing else unrelated to it, all of that in order to maintain organization.

Nothing justify Wammys words (the insults) regardless if written before or after the movement, it's simply an unnecessary and disrespectful attitude that goes against our rules and that in the first place are not productive in any way.

 

I have zero problems in being transparent and talk with people, exactly like many contacted me through discord today, so when I tell you that the thread was to be moved as being out of place it's simply cause it's like that. I do gain nothing from moving a post away from here, specially since everyone already read it, however organization is important and topics should be respected and there should not be freedom to go out of topic (made an example with metagross above).

 

I can even make a public post about staff-player relation (where players can comment of course and ask questions), as that's really important in a game.

However, please keep this thread on topic, or it will be just closed as the purpose of creating it was the one to discuss the spawn change itself, from A to Z and nothing else outside of it.

[Orihara]

16 hours ago, makeitwitchu said:

As a player, I am not much of a hunter nor has the "change" really affected me. Given your experience, I am sure you are very competent at your job and I have no intention of doubting your decision or vision. My issue, however, is with the philosophy your rhetoric here manifests. 

 

Although I am sure you feel justified to dismiss any complaints by the userbase at this point because historically the relationship between staff and the playerbase has not always been great, this antagonism is still something that can be learned from. It goes both ways. I have always felt the playerbase could be a bit more forgiving and less greedy, a lot of the feedback you receive is unproductive, that is true. At the same time, however, the hierarchical power relationship between staff and playerbase in this community is absurd for a fangame. There is little to no transparency or discussion. Feedback gets routinely ignored. The fact that players keep complaining about the staff should not be seen as inherently unjust and invalid because "dumb players just don't get what goes into making this game," but as a symptom of an issue in mentality at the core of your team. Most people are fine with ignoring this toxic attitude because they ultimately enjoy the product you have created (or they are too invested to quit), but when you start using language like the above quote the ugliness of the reality is exposed. 

I hope you take this as criticism and not as a personal attack because that it is what the following is: a critique of the ways in which you have chosen to communicate, what that says about your view of the playerbase, and the precedent this sets. I do not care for attacking you personally, this is not about you as an individual, but about your role as a staff member and how adequately or inadequately you perform your assigned role. 

I cannot help but feel a strong sense of contempt for your playerbase shine through in the above quote. You sound exhausted with people critiquing you, despite community feedback being the life and blood of games like this. Yes, you are by far the most qualified to talk about spawns given your experience, but this does not mean that every decision you make is automatically right. A new perspective on an issue should always be welcomed, not outright rejected based on a lack of perceived expertise. What is even more striking, is the fact that you legitimise your decision by threatening to revert back to worse spawns than before. I understand you say this to highlight the fact that hey you worked hard to improve spawns, so you DO care about the quality of life of your players, but this is just a terrible way of conveying that. It reads as if you are telling people to shut up or you will make it even worse than it currently is. Imagine calling your internet provider to complain about your net dying and the customer service agent telling you: "Well, it used to die a lot more, so you should consider yourself lucky. If you keep calling this number, I can make it so that it dies every few minutes if you'd like." This is poor communication and it further cements the gap between staff and an already alienated playerbase. To add insult to injury, you condemn people for calling you a dictator and in the same breath you threaten to silence them if they speak out against you. Surely you must see the hypocrisy in that statement. 

 

That is all I wanted to say. It is something that has been bothering me for a while, but I never managed to put my finger on it. I hope you treat this like the valid criticism it is, reacting to my feedback as opposed to deleting it outright would already be a big step in the right direction. I would like to end by saying this game has been good to me, I have enjoyed playing it a lot. The last few months have been rough, admittedly, but you find yourself at a juncture where it is essential to appreciate the people that stuck with you and maybe use this as an opportunity to start with a clean sheet, fostering a new culture of open dialogue and transparency. Hopefully, the playerbase will reward you for putting in this effort by offering valid feedback and being more patient and forgiving. As I said before, it goes both ways. 

This is indeed a valid criticism. However, one needs to understand and respect the fundamental difference between a staff member and a player, which is a player can ignore most of the annoying stuff but a staff member NEEDS to pay attention to it for the sole purpose of enacting their duty, which is enforcing rules.
Problem with the alienation you speak of has been an issue for quite a while, however the reason behind it does not lay with staff alone. If the community at large harbors hostile or negative behaviour towards staff, then u shouldnt expect them to greet you with open arms and roses, they are still human.
Things always get heated when drastic changes are made that effect the gameplay of players until the dust settles, whether the change remains or get adjusted, which comes down to feedback and how its constructed.
Bottom line is, there needs to be a level of respect between players and staff. A staff needs to respect a players time and effort they put into the game that they're trying to improve and a player needs to respect a staffs time and effort put into making the game and the community as enjoyable and fair as possible (toxicity etc etc) only difference is, staff are REQUIRED to respect that.
As for the whole changes and other stuff. If there was a change made and everyone riots 10 minutes after the announcement is made, that feedback has of little value because the said changes have not been tested, so your feedback is based on what you read, not what you experience, if said experience is effecting your gameplay negatively then that feedback gains value, because at the end of the day a its the developer and content teams job to make the game as enjoyable as possible. Then again, one must keep in mind that if a large majority wants a certain change, it may not be in the best interest in the games long term goals or path, many events that like that have taken place.
Hope this answer would atleast satisfy a few people but unfortunately my knowledge is extremely limited with internal stuff to be able to say more. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Orihara

[Makeitwitchu]

7 hours ago, Orihara said:

Bottom line is, there needs to be a level of respect between players and staff. A staff needs to respect a players time and effort they put into the game that they're trying to improve and a player needs to respect a staffs time and effort put into making the game and the community as enjoyable and fair as possible (toxicity etc etc) only difference is, staff are REQUIRED to respect that.
 

I very much agree with this and I thought that was clear in my post. At the end of the day, it's a two-way street. The alienation is based on a mutual lack of understanding, fostering frustration. To me, the main solution is an open dialogue and increased transparency, something that is improving, albeit slowly. I think opening a public forum where people can air out grievances and the staff can justify their decisions without invalidating a player's opinion, how stupid or ungrounded they may appear to be, is a great step in the right direction and I applaud the initiative. Players need staff as much as staff needs players, especially in smaller communities like ours. I agree staff should preserve their artistic integrity and should be able to enact their vision of the game, but if it is seen as a decrease in quality of life by the majority of the community, alternatives should be brought forward. To clarify: I am speaking of issues like PvP bans and the recent change in the Reborn bot which relate to the enjoyment of the game, not to suggestions like "make legendary easy to get pls" which go against the philosophy of the development team. 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by makeitwitchu