PVP Council

[Trainercole]

I don't know why you would assume that the parties would make decisions in their best interest when it states that they refer to the community before making any decision or starting any suspect. If no one is talking about for example: Garchomp then the council can’t randomly suspect garchomp...if they were to for whatever reason the admins can reprimand/terminate the leader.

 

I don't trust anybody or group that gets to create the rules that they play by. Like I said, if members of this council weren't eligible for PvP then it would be a different story, but nobody should get to make their own rules. It's a recipe for corruption, especially if you're picking from the people who are already at the top. It just makes them literally the ruling class of PvP.

 

Example: If two thirds of the council played Garchomp (since you mentioned Garchomp), but most of the members wanted Garchomp banned, there's nothing compelling those people who play Garchomp to vote to ban.

 

I don't know how Smogon tests or ratifies changes in their community, but if you really want to found a group that tests what's too strong, you should just form a group that records matches with the suspect pokemon, uploads the evidence of that pokemon or team being oppressively strong over so many matches, and then submit that for the game's population and for the staff to see. Transparent evidence is impossible to refute from players or staff.

 

A council of elites isn't necessary to enact change, if you do due diligence in collecting evidence.

[Eltyyy]

I don't trust anybody or group that gets to create the rules that they play by. Like I said, if members of this council weren't eligible for PvP then it would be a different story, but nobody should get to make their own rules. It's a recipe for corruption, especially if you're picking from the people who are already at the top. It just makes them literally the ruling class of PvP.

 

Example: If two thirds of the council played Garchomp (since you mentioned Garchomp), but most of the members wanted Garchomp banned, there's nothing compelling those people who play Garchomp to vote to ban.

 

I don't know how Smogon tests or ratifies changes in their community, but if you really want to found a group that tests what's too strong, you should just form a group that records matches with the suspect pokemon, uploads the evidence of that pokemon or team being oppressively strong over so many matches, and then submit that for the game's population and for the staff to see. Transparent evidence is impossible to refute from players or staff.

 

A council of elites isn't necessary to enact change, if you do due diligence in collecting evidence.

 

U clearly dont understand whats being said here, nobody cares what council members wanted in terms of what is being banned, its not gonna be approved by staff or their supervisor if the just decide to ban any poke on their own, this is not a group of elite players being put up to make PVP even easier for them, this would be to make healthy PVP metagame where you wouldnt have to play gastrodon or ferrothorn every game just because Greninja exists (and hope that same gren doesnt have grassknot/hpfire btw.) community would get to decide what poke should even be considered being suspect tested and then possibly banned in the first place.

Also please dont take me the wrong way but i cant take u seriously when ur account on both servers has like 30 hours gameplay, so either post from ur real account or dont at all? :)

[Idkup]

Well, we're already seeing arguments over hypothetical conflicts of interest...

 

How do supporters of a council propose to solve the problem posed by drama arising from favoritism / corruption / conflicts of interest, both real and imagined?

 

This thread has reminded me of drama caused in a guild tournament because of a single controversial ban. It seems to me that unless this issue is resolved satisfactorily, it is better for players to informally advise staff on their opinions of the metagame.

[Njnp]

Well, we're already seeing arguments over hypothetical conflicts of interest...

 

How do supporters of a council propose to solve the problem posed by drama arising from favoritism / corruption / conflicts of interest, both real and imagined?

 

This thread has reminded me of drama caused in a guild tournament because of a single controversial ban. It seems to me that unless this issue is resolved satisfactorily, it is better for players to informally advise staff on their opinions of the metagame.

 

I don’t agree with this post, it’s just 1 guy rising these questions. Some are fair, some just ignore the outlined text already given.

 

Drama is a common thing, there is drama with some decisions staff makes,drama in inner groups,drama throughout the world. There certainly is currently no drama here in this post, just a discussion.

 

Favoritism,Corruption,Conflicts of Interest, is all avoided by including public opinion and has never been an issue with smogon ou in recent years (which would be the closest example to this council). The main reason is because of public opinion coinciding with well informed opinion to make the best decision for the entirety of the tier.

 

Now, ofc you are not going to please everyone. Some decisions that have been made on smogon weren’t well received, some decisions here weren’t well received. That is naturally gonna happen because we all have our own opinions.

 

How some can view the creation of the council as a bunch of elitists but want the staff which no offense has not the best pvp/doesn’t touch pvp players to make competitive decisions is weird. Why not have those same concerns? It seems most do, that is why this post is favored by pvp players as they see the need to have a body that will fully understand what needs to be done for the foreseeable future in competitive play for pro.

 

The goals of many for the council is to avoid things like genesect running around because no one takes the time to make a post. Shut down dugtrio earlier just because some haven’t lost to it yet, so they think it’s not a broken mon. Suspect a mon like greninja who was clearly broken in a more developed format in smogon, that is causing chaos in this format right now.

[Xrevolutionx94]

I don’t agree with this post, it’s just 1 guy rising these questions. Some are fair, some just ignore the outlined text already given.

 

Drama is a common thing, there is drama with some decisions staff makes,drama in inner groups,drama throughout the world. There certainly is currently no drama here in this post, just a discussion.

 

Favoritism,Corruption,Conflicts of Interest, is all avoided by including public opinion and has never been an issue with smogon ou in recent years (which would be the closest example to this council). The main reason is because of public opinion coinciding with well informed opinion to make the best decision for the entirety of the tier.

 

Now, ofc you are not going to please everyone. Some decisions that have been made on smogon weren’t well received, some decisions here weren’t well received. That is naturally gonna happen because we all have our own opinions.

 

How some can view the creation of the council as a bunch of elitists but want the staff which no offense has not the best pvp/doesn’t touch pvp players to make competitive decisions is weird. Why not have those same concerns? It seems most do, that is why this post is favored by pvp players as they see the need to have a body that will fully understand what needs to be done for the foreseeable future in competitive play for pro.

 

The goals of many for the council is to avoid things like genesect running around because no one takes the time to make a post. Shut down dugtrio earlier just because some haven’t lost to it yet, so they think it’s not a broken mon. Suspect a mon like greninja who was clearly broken in a more developed format in smogon, that is causing chaos in this format right now.

like this man said I had to create a fucking poll about gensect to get it banned it wasn't qb or anything and it was already said by a dev that he wont ban anything he codes and that's just a problem that needs to be fixed imo if you want pvp to be a great thing for this mmo

[Trainercole]

How some can view the creation of the council as a bunch of elitists but want the staff which no offense has not the best pvp/doesn’t touch pvp players to make competitive decisions is weird.

 

Also please dont take me the wrong way but i cant take u seriously when ur account on both servers has like 30 hours gameplay, so either post from ur real account or dont at all? :)

 

Yeah... super weird.

 

I actually did miss earlier where you spoke about transparency and how the committee would be put together. That sort of thing is important, and while I don't agree with not having defined limits on how long you can be on the committee, any answer at all is better than not having an idea.

 

Honestly though, when you look at this objectively, a group like this would be nothing more than a committee that oversees and play-tests bans and then sends that playtest data up the ladder? Why not just write out actual criteria that awards a pokemon a ban? If you do that then people can go and look up the playtests for the pokemon and see where they exceed that criteria to know why it's banned. You wouldn't even really need to take votes. You'd just need volunteers with some PvP skill to run the playtests.

 

I mean, unless you had dreams of tiering out PvP a la smogon. Which a lot of people would have mixed feelings about. (Staff probably wouldn't go for that since it'd mean changes to the PvP UI, and this whole council thing has been tried before, so you're fighting an uphill battle already.). If you did, it would be meta-healthy in that less mechanically efficient pokemon would see play, but there'd be some immersion loss. I'd recommend against trying to make an official list of OU-type, but not banned pokemon. There's really no reason to write players a connect the dots to the most meta-efficient teams.

 

Another big difference with PRO is the seasonal competition. The committee would have to always be performing their tests in anticipation of the next season, since 1 month isn't a very long time and you'll want to have more complete test data kicking off the season, rather than having to try and push emergency patches mid-season which is where you'll get more flak from your player base.

 

I was never a "-1" vote on this (calling it a council is super cheesy though), but if you're going to do it, you have to come loaded with an idea of how you're going to do the job and do it fairly or staff isn't even going to give this a second thought.

[Idkup]

I don’t agree with this post, it’s just 1 guy rising these questions. Some are fair, some just ignore the outlined text already given.

 

Drama is a common thing, there is drama with some decisions staff makes,drama in inner groups,drama throughout the world. There certainly is currently no drama here in this post, just a discussion.

 

Favoritism,Corruption,Conflicts of Interest, is all avoided by including public opinion and has never been an issue with smogon ou in recent years (which would be the closest example to this council). The main reason is because of public opinion coinciding with well informed opinion to make the best decision for the entirety of the tier.

 

Now, ofc you are not going to please everyone. Some decisions that have been made on smogon weren’t well received, some decisions here weren’t well received. That is naturally gonna happen because we all have our own opinions.

 

How some can view the creation of the council as a bunch of elitists but want the staff which no offense has not the best pvp/doesn’t touch pvp players to make competitive decisions is weird. Why not have those same concerns? It seems most do, that is why this post is favored by pvp players as they see the need to have a body that will fully understand what needs to be done for the foreseeable future in competitive play for pro.

 

The goals of many for the council is to avoid things like genesect running around because no one takes the time to make a post. Shut down dugtrio earlier just because some haven’t lost to it yet, so they think it’s not a broken mon. Suspect a mon like greninja who was clearly broken in a more developed format in smogon, that is causing chaos in this format right now.

 

Yes, but no one on Smogon can be called into question for not banning a Pokemon because they have an epic IV one ingame, since on a simulator there's no time investment in obtaining Pokemon. A council on PRO would also have a major impact on the economy, as banned Pokemon have no market.

[Acyst]

+1

[Njnp]

bump

[Cobramk]

No news about a future PvP council ?