PRO Viability Rankings (PVP)

[Teemoking]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

 

<t>Bisharp should be in S<br/>

<br/>

Blaziken in A or A+ at most</t>

[Idkup]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

 

<t>Why the hell do you people think Bisharp is S, have you never fought anything with the attack Mach Punch?</t>

[Teemoking]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

 

<r><QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339260"><s></s>339260<e></e></POST> Why the hell do you people think Bisharp is S, have you never fought anything with the attack Mach Punch?<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

only few pokemons have mach punch<br/>

<br/>

not everyone uses breloom or conkeldurr</r>

[Idkup]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

 

<r><QUOTE author="TeemoKing"><s>

</s><POST content="339348"><s></s>339348<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339260"><s></s>339260<e></e></POST> Why the hell do you people think Bisharp is S, have you never fought anything with the attack Mach Punch?<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

only few pokemons have mach punch<br/>

<br/>

not everyone uses breloom or conkeldurr<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

breloom is still quite common and faster priority completely ruins bisharp so...</r>

[Shewas18]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

 

<r><QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339260"><s></s>339260<e></e></POST> Why the hell do you people think Bisharp is S, have you never fought anything with the attack Mach Punch?<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Im playing poliwrath, and it' 5-6hked at best by lo bisharp , i mean by that , getting flinched to death and cannot press rest or circle throw once . Have you ever double switched once ?</r>

[Tr3y]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

 

<t>-Poliwrath Added to A- <br/>

-Blaziken Added to A<br/>

<br/>

I decided to experiment with Poliwrath myself after reading the discussion and it has proven itself to be probably one of the best, if not, the best counter to Weavile and Bisharp in the game. Like Shewas18 has stated, with access to Circle Throw and a Water/Fighting typing, it can check both of these mons indefinitely. It switches in every time without fearing any attacks from them, LO (Life Orb) boosted or not. <br/>

<br/>

Scenario 1 - Stealth Rocks are up and you switch your Poliwrath into Weavile's Ice Punch taking around 14% of damage (8% after Leftovers). The opponent knows you have a fighting move to deal with his Weavile so he switches out into a Poliwrath check. Well you use Circle Throw on the switch and force another pokemon making it take stealth rock damage. If you get lucky and force Weavile back in it takes Stealth Rock damage + the Life Orb damage it took when it hit Poliwrath. He will be forced to switch into something else which ultimately results in potentially half of the team taking Stealth Rock and Circle Throw damage. It is also a great switch into Gyarados (not carrying Bounce) and Tyranitar. I didn't even mention pokemon potentially not having the opportunity to do anything because of Clefable's T Wave support. This is why I feel this pokemon deserves an A- rank. You are fully aware of this SW18 but just wanted to explain for other people xD.<br/>

<br/>

Blaziken definitely is much better with the newly added Protect TM but like SW18 previously said, Talonflame is so prevalent in the current meta. There are also so many sand teams which carry Slowbro, Azumarill, and / or Starmie. At the end of each turn you'll be taking Life Orb + Sand damage + Potentially Flare Blitz Recoil. This gives Blaziken only a few turns to do something if it even can. Yes, Slowbro dies to a +2 boosted LO Knock Off but you would have to predict your opponent when he switches into Slowbro. If you're facing a smart player, they will know this and potentially pull a switch into Talonflame instead. Basically what I'm saying by this is in order for Blaziken to be successful, the team you're playing has to be in favor of Blaziken and you have to win 50/50 turns. And since there is no team preview it's pretty hard to know if you can spam High Jump Kick or not because nothing is telling you if they have a Ghost type. So at the end of the day, Blaziken is a great pokemon and has the potential to be a potent late game sweeper but it is worn down far too quick and the current metagame is flooded with Talonflame. <br/>

<br/>

If you have any other things to add or you feel like I missed something please feel free to let me and the other readers know.</t>

[Idkup]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

 

<r><QUOTE author="TR3Y"><s>

</s><POST content="339386"><s></s>339386<e></e></POST> -Poliwrath Added to A- <br/>

-Blaziken Added to A<br/>

<br/>

I decided to experiment with Poliwrath myself after reading the discussion and it has proven itself to be probably one of the best, if not, the best counter to Weavile and Bisharp in the game. Like Shewas18 has stated, with access to Circle Throw and a Water/Fighting typing, it can check both of these mons indefinitely. It switches in every time without fearing any attacks from them, LO (Life Orb) boosted or not. <br/>

<br/>

Scenario 1 - Stealth Rocks are up and you switch your Poliwrath into Weavile's Ice Punch taking around 14% of damage (8% after Leftovers). The opponent knows you have a fighting move to deal with his Weavile so he switches out into a Poliwrath check. Well you use Circle Throw on the switch and force another pokemon making it take stealth rock damage. If you get lucky and force Weavile back in it takes Stealth Rock damage + the Life Orb damage it took when it hit Poliwrath. He will be forced to switch into something else which ultimately results in potentially half of the team taking Stealth Rock and Circle Throw damage. It is also a great switch into Gyarados (not carrying Bounce) and Tyranitar. I didn't even mention pokemon potentially not having the opportunity to do anything because of Clefable's T Wave support. This is why I feel this pokemon deserves an A- rank. You are fully aware of this SW18 but just wanted to explain for other people xD.<br/>

<br/>

Blaziken definitely is much better with the newly added Protect TM but like SW18 previously said, Talonflame is so prevalent in the current meta. There are also so many sand teams which carry Slowbro, Azumarill, and / or Starmie. At the end of each turn you'll be taking Life Orb + Sand damage + Potentially Flare Blitz Recoil. This gives Blaziken only a few turns to do something if it even can. Yes, Slowbro dies to a +2 boosted LO Knock Off but you would have to predict your opponent when he switches into Slowbro. If you're facing a smart player, they will know this and potentially pull a switch into Talonflame instead. Basically what I'm saying by this is in order for Blaziken to be successful, the team you're playing has to be in favor of Blaziken and you have to win 50/50 turns. And since there is no team preview it's pretty hard to know if you can spam High Jump Kick or not because nothing is telling you if they have a Ghost type. So at the end of the day, Blaziken is a great pokemon and has the potential to be a potent late game sweeper but it is worn down far too quick and the current metagame is flooded with Talonflame. <br/>

<br/>

If you have any other things to add or you feel like I missed something please feel free to let me and the other readers know.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

there's 15 other bulky waters and poliwrath gets added to A-? I feel like that's just a disservice to all the bulky waters out there that actually have reliable recovery... just because it's the best at countering weavile means nothing if it hardly provides anything else that milotic, slowbro etc can't do. Flygon is possibly the best Primal Groudon counter in existence, yet no one ever uses him in Ubers...</r>

[Shewas18]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

 

<r><QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339485"><s></s>339485<e></e></POST> there's 15 other bulky waters and poliwrath gets added to A-? I feel like that's just a disservice to all the bulky waters out there that actually have reliable recovery... just because it's the best at countering weavile means nothing if it hardly provides anything else that milotic, slowbro etc can't do. Flygon is possibly the best Primal Groudon counter in existence, yet no one ever uses him in Ubers...<e>

</e></QUOTE>Because Mence or Waterceus are just better ?<br/>

None of them actually like being crippled by a status,wrath isn't trapped by goth either(meaning not being a setupbait for everything else aswell),his fighting typing and phazing abillity provide much more than others bulky water .Im not going to argue about wich one are better than others , but wrath is anti-meta , yet he dislikes tflamme and azu(being seen less than before,while tflamme is everywhere as always) , but being able to switch all day long into boosted knock off (daunt,bisharp,scizor,weavile) is a thing other water mon dislikes,while clefable/blissey/ferro being everywhere and possibly are answers people are using the most to fat,tempo loss watermon , being phazed on the switch ,and also checking opponnent"s team is another appealing point .(why does it sound like im repeating myself, tbh you probably skipped/ignored every argument i gaved earlier, to just refute because it's me) Don't missunderstand ,im not saying wrath is better than slowbro overall , but metawise , atm it's the case (imo) .<QUOTE author="TR3Y"><s>

</s><POST content="339386"><s></s>339386<e></e></POST> I didn't even mention pokemon potentially not having the opportunity to do anything<e>

</e></QUOTE>

way too long , way too much .<br/>

Edit: You can stick to your blissey/growth/slowbro team , there no reason for me to actually give "pocket" mon wich are breaking the meta, when i could keep them , pro meta is probablly the sadest one ever seen , if leaking such mon can "help" introducing new thing ,and so kind of"restrain" playing against all thoose mirrored team such as bisharp and sand team , why not . People are adapting since the addiction of recently codded new usable contents ,same for u-turn on tflame despite the moove being legit sh it in his current state , Poliwrath pretty much answer everything new and even older scary thing , you are free to think the opposite . Have a nice day .</r>

[Idkup]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

 

<r><QUOTE author="SheWas18"><s>

</s><POST content="339516"><s></s>339516<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339485"><s></s>339485<e></e></POST> there's 15 other bulky waters and poliwrath gets added to A-? I feel like that's just a disservice to all the bulky waters out there that actually have reliable recovery... just because it's the best at countering weavile means nothing if it hardly provides anything else that milotic, slowbro etc can't do. Flygon is possibly the best Primal Groudon counter in existence, yet no one ever uses him in Ubers...<e>

</e></QUOTE>Because Mence or Waterceus are just better ?<br/>

None of them actually like being crippled by a status,wrath isn't trapped by goth either(meaning not being a setupbait for everything else aswell),his fighting typing and phazing abillity provide much more than others bulky water .Im not going to argue about wich one are better than others , but wrath is anti-meta , yet he dislikes tflamme and azu(being seen less than before,while tflamme is everywhere as always) , but being able to switch all day long into boosted knock off (daunt,bisharp,scizor,weavile) is a thing other water mon dislikes,while clefable/blissey/ferro being everywhere and possibly are answers people are using the most to fat,tempo loss watermon , being phazed on the switch ,and also checking opponnent"s team is another appealing point .(why does it sound like im repeating myself, tbh you probably skipped/ignored every argument i gaved earlier, to just refute because it's me) Don't missunderstand ,im not saying wrath is better than slowbro overall , but metawise , atm it's the case (imo) .<QUOTE author="TR3Y"><s>

</s><POST content="339386"><s></s>339386<e></e></POST> I didn't even mention pokemon potentially not having the opportunity to do anything<e>

</e></QUOTE>

way too long , way too much .<br/>

Edit: You can stick to your blissey/growth/slowbro team , there no reason for me to actually give "pocket" mon wich are breaking the meta, when i could keep them , pro meta is probablly the sadest one ever seen , if leaking such mon can "help" introducing new thing ,and so kind of"restrain" playing against all thoose mirrored team such as bisharp and sand team , why not . People are adapting since the addiction of recently codded new usable contents ,same for u-turn on tflame despite the moove being legit sh it in his current state , Poliwrath pretty much answer everything new and even older scary thing , you are free to think the opposite . Have a nice day .<e>

</e></QUOTE>

nah mence is a horrible pdon check bc of stone edge / parashuffler sets and waterceus means giving up your arceus forme to a dedicated pdon check which doesn't work for many teams; also instead of being trapped by goth you prefer being straight up 2hkod? slowbro can at least take on goth in a cm war while wrath just loses lmfao, reducing a 'tank' without reliable recovery to 40% is basically removing it from play altogether because you can now disregard it entirely when planning your sweep. furthermore nothing screams 'free switch for clefable' like a poliwrath so it's basically guaranteed a paralyze whenever it switches in, or if you try to phaze, you get moonblasted (2hko)... also poliwrath's scald is weak even by bulky water standards, doing barely over 50 to standard excadrill lol... imo at least one of the primary roles of a bulky water in this meta is to prevent an excadrill sweep, and using poliwrath leads to this: <br/>

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 325-383 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock<br/>

considering wrath has no recovery all that means is that a single switchin puts poli into KO range, which is frankly pitiful...<br/>

<br/>

another major problem with wrath is that offensively speaking it contributes absolutely nothing to your teambuild which makes it a pretty massive momentum kill - worse than blissey, which at least tempers some threats with thunder wave - and basically not viable on anything faster than semistall.<br/>

<br/>

idk why you think i have anything against you but for the record that isn't the case<br/>

<br/>

also for the record i have never played with blissey, slowbro, or tangrowth - my playstyle is extremely aggressive and forgoes defensive checks in favor of sweeping momentum.</r>

[Shewas18]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.9

 

<r><QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> nah mence is a horrible pdon check bc of stone edge / parashuffler sets and waterceus means giving up your arceus forme to a dedicated pdon check which doesn't work for many teams;<e>

</e></QUOTE>

I'v been part uber/ag community for years but thanks to you i learned something new , people way of handling hazards in sumo's meta are mence,exca,waterceus,darkceus,gira ,(wait wait waterceus and mence ?)and therefore there are more hp ice pdon running around than stone edge ones and SD less variants can't even touch mence and are simply setup bait,and had to mention no one played parashuffler since longtime ago ,whereas zygard-c is straight better now for doing this job . (speak of thing you are aware of, thanks )<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> also instead of being trapped by goth you prefer being straight up 2hkod?<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Yes,well nothing appart from psyshic even 2hko,and tbolt is much worse than toxic<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> slowbro can at least take on goth in a cm war while wrath just loses [Censored],<e>

</e></QUOTE>

No<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> furthermore nothing screams 'free switch for clefable' like a poliwrath so it's basically guaranteed a paralyze whenever it switches in<e>

</e></QUOTE>

No aswell .

<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> imo at least one of the primary roles of a bulky water in this meta is to prevent an excadrill sweep, and using poliwrath leads to this: <br/>

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 325-383 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock<e>

</e></QUOTE>

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 324-382 (82.2 - 96.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth .<br/>

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 438-516 (102.8 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO <br/>

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blastoise: 344-407 (95 - 112.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock<br/>

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 402-473 (102 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO<br/>

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock<br/>

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 430-508 (106.4 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO<br/>

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 415-489 (108.3 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO<br/>

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 370-437 (92.2 - 108.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock<br/>

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 472-555 (101.7 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO<br/>

cune is30ish % getting ohked,bar waterceus and rotom-w (even a shittyd m-stoise's spread fully invested in hp and def is ohked with sand and sr,fishing for a flinch is also a possible way to pass through tom and ceus )everything "bulky water" just faint to exca , <br/>

you see i am aswell cable of copypasting some calcs , you may correct me if i'm wrong , but almost no one play ada exca and leaking calc of an ada lo+2 exca is irrevalent as ,since almost nothing walls it properly with a bit of hax/prior damage/hazards<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> another major problem with wrath is that offensively speaking it contributes absolutely nothing to your teambuild which makes it a pretty massive momentum kill <e>

</e></QUOTE>

momentum killer=/=stabbed phazing abillity.

<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> reducing a 'tank' without reliable recovery to 40% is basically removing it from play altogether because you can now disregard it entirely when planning your sweep<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Remodling arguments i gaved to ask for a ranking in the first place , to discredit it later on ,when i actually pointed thoose out sounds lame ;you basiclly change the interpration of words to make them your side thus counter-argumentating whith pointing thoose flows ."hey don't rank it up too high, it has somehow no reliable recovery " "but you know it has no reliable recovery so it sucks" Rolf .(i have shorten but his post is about that kind of thing )<QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="339708"><s></s>339708<e></e></POST> and basically not viable on anything faster than semistall.<e>

</e></QUOTE>Wrong again , balance ?(you probably never seen one during ORAS OU, or even in pro for obvious reasons ) anyways isn't pro full of semi-stall teams ?<br/>

Edit: Dunno if you noticed ,the rank i asked for was lower than bulky water having acces to a reliable recovery except jellycent, because of his knock of's weakness while taking wrath"s niche of checking the abondancy of LO knock off users .</r>