PRO Viability Rankings (PVP)

[Tr3y]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="HiddenAbility"><s>

</s><POST content="286510"><s></s>286510<e></e></POST> Name: Alomomola<br/>

Current tier: Non-Ranked<br/>

Desired tier: A+<br/>

Reason: It seems funny but let's start to bring a Non-Ranked to A+ tier Pokemon <E>:Smile:</E> . First, It has good stats :" 165HP and 80 def " with regen abi. Role: support. It can learn wish, toxic, scald, knockoff which are really good support moves. It can learn protect too by lv up make it really hard to deal. I know that there are still some bugged with protect make it hard to use but it also has cool bugged like recoil moves still take recoil damage if the OP pokemon use protect... Wish and regenerator are perfect combines and with 165HP it can fully heal all your other Pokemon. Moreover, this Pokemon weakness is spatk sweeper but look at PRO tier, not too much spatk sweeper have good ranking and ppl even play a team with full atk sweeper in PRO.It is a bonus point for it make it even better than smogon said. And when Gothitelle ranking going down that mean regenerator pokes going up, including this poke. Rarely ppl using it just because of no one notice about it <E>:kiss:</E> .<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Alomomola is definitely a great pokemon and I am glad you brought it to my attention. I will definitely be adding it. I'm just not sure if it's worthy of A+ rank.</r>

[Shyntil]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<t>B+/A- at best</t>

[Sirchancelot]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="TR3Y"><s>

</s><POST content="286740"><s></s>286740<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="HiddenAbility"><s>

</s><POST content="286510"><s></s>286510<e></e></POST> Name: Alomomola<br/>

Current tier: Non-Ranked<br/>

Desired tier: A+<br/>

Reason: It seems funny but let's start to bring a Non-Ranked to A+ tier Pokemon <E>:Smile:</E> . First, It has good stats :" 165HP and 80 def " with regen abi. Role: support. It can learn wish, toxic, scald, knockoff which are really good support moves. It can learn protect too by lv up make it really hard to deal. I know that there are still some bugged with protect make it hard to use but it also has cool bugged like recoil moves still take recoil damage if the OP pokemon use protect... Wish and regenerator are perfect combines and with 165HP it can fully heal all your other Pokemon. Moreover, this Pokemon weakness is spatk sweeper but look at PRO tier, not too much spatk sweeper have good ranking and ppl even play a team with full atk sweeper in PRO.It is a bonus point for it make it even better than smogon said. And when Gothitelle ranking going down that mean regenerator pokes going up, including this poke. Rarely ppl using it just because of no one notice about it <E>:kiss:</E> .<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Alomomola is definitely a great pokemon and I am glad you brought it to my attention. I will definitely be adding it. I'm just not sure if it's worthy of A+ rank.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Idk about its ranking from lack of experience but shouldn't it be relatively similar to slowbro?</r>

[Einheria]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="SirChancelot"><s>

</s><POST content="291205"><s></s>291205<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="TR3Y"><s>

</s><POST content="286740"><s></s>286740<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="HiddenAbility"><s>

</s><POST content="286510"><s></s>286510<e></e></POST> Name: Alomomola<br/>

Current tier: Non-Ranked<br/>

Desired tier: A+<br/>

Reason: It seems funny but let's start to bring a Non-Ranked to A+ tier Pokemon <E>:Smile:</E> . First, It has good stats :" 165HP and 80 def " with regen abi. Role: support. It can learn wish, toxic, scald, knockoff which are really good support moves. It can learn protect too by lv up make it really hard to deal. I know that there are still some bugged with protect make it hard to use but it also has cool bugged like recoil moves still take recoil damage if the OP pokemon use protect... Wish and regenerator are perfect combines and with 165HP it can fully heal all your other Pokemon. Moreover, this Pokemon weakness is spatk sweeper but look at PRO tier, not too much spatk sweeper have good ranking and ppl even play a team with full atk sweeper in PRO.It is a bonus point for it make it even better than smogon said. And when Gothitelle ranking going down that mean regenerator pokes going up, including this poke. Rarely ppl using it just because of no one notice about it <E>:kiss:</E> .<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Alomomola is definitely a great pokemon and I am glad you brought it to my attention. I will definitely be adding it. I'm just not sure if it's worthy of A+ rank.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Idk about its ranking from lack of experience but shouldn't it be relatively similar to slowbro?<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

Not exactly similar. They are both great walls to deal with the 3 S-rank (Talon, Chomp and Azu except the belly drum set) but Alomomola main niche is its ability to pass awesome wish support to the team thanks to its huge HP stat and regenerator, something Slowbro cannot achieve.<br/>

<br/>

However Slowbro is bulkier and has offensive presence thanks to Calm mind and can become a real win condition with a few boosts under its belt</r>

[Guest LiquidSnakeK]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="HiddenAbility"><s>

</s><POST content="286510"><s></s>286510<e></e></POST> Name: Alomomola<br/>

Current tier: Non-Ranked<br/>

Desired tier: A+<br/>

Reason: It seems funny but let's start to bring a Non-Ranked to A+ tier Pokemon <E>:Smile:</E> . First, It has good stats :" 165HP and 80 def " with regen abi. Role: support. It can learn wish, toxic, scald, knockoff which are really good support moves. It can learn protect too by lv up make it really hard to deal. I know that there are still some bugged with protect make it hard to use but it also has cool bugged like recoil moves still take recoil damage if the OP pokemon use protect... Wish and regenerator are perfect combines and with 165HP it can fully heal all your other Pokemon. Moreover, this Pokemon weakness is spatk sweeper but look at PRO tier, not too much spatk sweeper have good ranking and ppl even play a team with full atk sweeper in PRO.It is a bonus point for it make it even better than smogon said. And when Gothitelle ranking going down that mean regenerator pokes going up, including this poke. Rarely ppl using it just because of no one notice about it <E>:kiss:</E> .<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Definitely not deserving of an A+ imo. B at best. Yes it has fat wish passes but other than that its not very strong. When you say spatk sweepers the first thing that comes to mind is toge, and they are everywhere and will destroy an alomomola with ease. Granted Alo will fit on stall, and something can wall toge, but a nasty plot toge will even break through the best of spdef walls, especially with heal bell. Its overrated I feel but that's just my opinion.</r>

[Enforcer]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<t>Bump..</t>

[Idkup]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<t>Wall of text incoming (based on my experiences on Yellow, currently rated around 450, only started like two weeks go tho)<br/>

<br/>

Talonflame and Garchomp S?<br/>

<br/>

Don't get me wrong, both are great Pokemon, but they hardly define the metagame. Talonflame gets murdered by the best and ubiquitous move in the game - Stealth Rock, has issues with killing itself, as well as providing no defensive utility whatsoever to its team. Sure, priority 130BP + STAB is nifty, but when you often switch in at 50%, then take 20% more in recoil on your first turn on the field, it doesn't exactly seem like an S-Rank mon, because it is simply so restricted in terms of switchins.<br/>

<br/>

Garchomp is a more interesting case, but I also feel that it should drop - I'll bullet my list here...<br/>

1) PRO speed tiers are very different from ORAS OU. Most Pokemon fall around three ranges: 50-60 (Scizor, Magnezone, Tyranitar, Azumarill etc); 70-80 (Defensive Gliscor, Defensive Arcanine, Defensive Tentacruel, Togekiss, Gyarados, Gothitelle etc); and 110+ (Gengar, Starmie, Weavile, Crobat and friends). Now why does this matter?<br/>

<br/>

In OU, Garchomp's speed tier of 102 is amazing, because it just outruns the very common base 100s that run rampant in the environment. In essence, what makes Garchomp uniquely suited to checking many threats in OU is removed in this metagame - simply because those those threats do not exist.<br/>

<br/>

2) Lack of access to Choice Scarf and Life Orb for offensive sets, and over-reliance on Swords Dance to do meaningful damage. Fast Taunters shut him down entirely, especially if he lacks Stone Edge.<br/>

<br/>

3) Poor matchups against other Pokemon in S/A+/A. Crippling weaknesses to Ice and Fairy as well as struggles against bulky Water-type Pokemon hinder Garchomp severely.<br/>

<br/>

Other than that, I'd bump Excadrill to S in its place.<br/>

This is a much more versatile Pokemon than all of the other S-Ranks - it can run a defensive set with Mold Breaker, becoming one of the most reliable Stealth Rockers and/or Spinners in the game, and it can also become one of the deadliest sweepers in the game with Swords Dance and Sand Rush. Its typing gives it weaknesses to only Fire, Fighting, and Water, and a vast array of resistances that it can use for free switch-ins throughout the game.<br/>

<br/>

Tentacruel also deserves a bump, IMO. I may be biased because I'm running one currently, but its ridiculous special bulk and access to Rapid Spin certainly puts it over Lapras in my eyes, possessing a much better typing, and far more utility options.<br/>

<br/>

Sample set: <br/>

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge<br/>

Nature: Bold<br/>

252 HP 252 Def 4 SpD<br/>

-Scald (Self-explanatory)<br/>

-Acid Spray (Before you laugh, this move forces a lot of switches by sharply dropping the opponent's special defense, and allows Tentacruel to deal massive damage with Scald if the opponent does not do so. It also essentially prevents slow setup users without priority from setting up entirely, provided you have a strong special attacker such as Gengar or Magnezone in the back, as at -2 most foes are easily OHKO'd. Is still powerful enough to prevent Azumarill from belly drumming.<br/>

-Rapid Spin (Hazard removal)<br/>

-Ice Beam (Keeps you from being setup bait for Lum Dragonite / Lum Salamence, an issue for many other bulky waters)<br/>

<br/>

With this set, Tentacruel can tank hits while simultaneously maintaining a decent, if not great offensive presence. Its main weakness is its lack of reliable recovery outside of Black Sludge, however, it is certainly a good spinner in its own right and presents a greater challenge for most teams to deal with than other bulky waters such as Slowbro.<br/>

<br/>

---<br/>

<br/>

Random stuff that I feel like is too high but I don't have time to write a long analysis for<br/>

---<br/>

Hydreigon (azumarill appreciates your setup bait, hates fairies, doesn't really pack enough of a punch)<br/>

Snorlax (*something* used taunt. snorlax became dead weight.)<br/>

Galvantula (Rapid spin and Defog)<br/>

Milotic (it gets haze over other bulky waters? worse than Vaporeon imo, unless Azumarill is dumb enough to drum in front of Milotic...)<br/>

Sableye (why is a trollmon in A-)<br/>

<br/>

Duskinoir (wat)<br/>

Ambipom (weak and frail as hell)<br/>

Eelektross (jack of all trades, master of none - too slow, frail, and weak to be considered mid-tier imo)<br/>

Abomasnow (we aren't in SuMo yet, hail still sucks)<br/>

Avalugg (horrible defensive typing, and about as bad specially speaking as Rhyperior...)<br/>

Cofagrigus (this thing's niche over Jellicent is what exactly?)<br/>

Florges (worse Sylveon)<br/>

Steelix (another case of a joke special defense stat... at least Rhyperior has a decent offensive typing)<br/>

<br/>

Stuff that really needs to rise<br/>

===<br/>

Kabutops (If Kingdra is A-, why isn't Kabutops? It's just as essential for Rain Offense)<br/>

Vaporeon (Why the hell is this beneath Milotic, it gets better support options such as Wish, and has approximately the same amount of bulk)<br/>

Crobat (Probably the biggest travesty here. Its 130 base speed allows it to revenge literally anything without priority, and can tear through stall with Taunt + Super Fang + Roost, which also makes it extremely hard to switch into. Also has deceptively high bulk, and can switch in on stuff like Gengar's Shadow Ball to RK with Stealth Rock and a little bit of chip damage.</t>

[Tr3y]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="304870"><s></s>304870<e></e></POST> Wall of text incoming (based on my experiences on Yellow, currently rated around 450, only started like two weeks go tho)<br/>

<br/>

Talonflame and Garchomp S?<br/>

<br/>

Don't get me wrong, both are great Pokemon, but they hardly define the metagame. Talonflame gets murdered by the best and ubiquitous move in the game - Stealth Rock, has issues with killing itself, as well as providing no defensive utility whatsoever to its team. Sure, priority 130BP + STAB is nifty, but when you often switch in at 50%, then take 20% more in recoil on your first turn on the field, it doesn't exactly seem like an S-Rank mon, because it is simply so restricted in terms of switchins.<br/>

<br/>

Garchomp is a more interesting case, but I also feel that it should drop - I'll bullet my list here...<br/>

1) PRO speed tiers are very different from ORAS OU. Most Pokemon fall around three ranges: 50-60 (Scizor, Magnezone, Tyranitar, Azumarill etc); 70-80 (Defensive Gliscor, Defensive Arcanine, Defensive Tentacruel, Togekiss, Gyarados, Gothitelle etc); and 110+ (Gengar, Starmie, Weavile, Crobat and friends). Now why does this matter?<br/>

<br/>

In OU, Garchomp's speed tier of 102 is amazing, because it just outruns the very common base 100s that run rampant in the environment. In essence, what makes Garchomp uniquely suited to checking many threats in OU is removed in this metagame - simply because those those threats do not exist.<br/>

<br/>

2) Lack of access to Choice Scarf and Life Orb for offensive sets, and over-reliance on Swords Dance to do meaningful damage. Fast Taunters shut him down entirely, especially if he lacks Stone Edge.<br/>

<br/>

3) Poor matchups against other Pokemon in S/A+/A. Crippling weaknesses to Ice and Fairy as well as struggles against bulky Water-type Pokemon hinder Garchomp severely.<br/>

<br/>

Other than that, I'd bump Excadrill to S in its place.<br/>

This is a much more versatile Pokemon than all of the other S-Ranks - it can run a defensive set with Mold Breaker, becoming one of the most reliable Stealth Rockers and/or Spinners in the game, and it can also become one of the deadliest sweepers in the game with Swords Dance and Sand Rush. Its typing gives it weaknesses to only Fire, Fighting, and Water, and a vast array of resistances that it can use for free switch-ins throughout the game.<br/>

<br/>

Tentacruel also deserves a bump, IMO. I may be biased because I'm running one currently, but its ridiculous special bulk and access to Rapid Spin certainly puts it over Lapras in my eyes, possessing a much better typing, and far more utility options.<br/>

<br/>

Sample set: <br/>

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge<br/>

Nature: Bold<br/>

252 HP 252 Def 4 SpD<br/>

-Scald (Self-explanatory)<br/>

-Acid Spray (Before you laugh, this move forces a lot of switches by sharply dropping the opponent's special defense, and allows Tentacruel to deal massive damage with Scald if the opponent does not do so. It also essentially prevents slow setup users without priority from setting up entirely, provided you have a strong special attacker such as Gengar or Magnezone in the back, as at -2 most foes are easily OHKO'd. Is still powerful enough to prevent Azumarill from belly drumming.<br/>

-Rapid Spin (Hazard removal)<br/>

-Ice Beam (Keeps you from being setup bait for Lum Dragonite / Lum Salamence, an issue for many other bulky waters)<br/>

<br/>

With this set, Tentacruel can tank hits while simultaneously maintaining a decent, if not great offensive presence. Its main weakness is its lack of reliable recovery outside of Black Sludge, however, it is certainly a good spinner in its own right and presents a greater challenge for most teams to deal with than other bulky waters such as Slowbro.<br/>

<br/>

---<br/>

<br/>

Random stuff that I feel like is too high but I don't have time to write a long analysis for<br/>

---<br/>

Hydreigon (azumarill appreciates your setup bait, hates fairies, doesn't really pack enough of a punch)<br/>

Snorlax (*something* used taunt. snorlax became dead weight.)<br/>

Galvantula (Rapid spin and Defog)<br/>

Milotic (it gets haze over other bulky waters? worse than Vaporeon imo, unless Azumarill is dumb enough to drum in front of Milotic...)<br/>

Sableye (why is a trollmon in A-)<br/>

<br/>

Duskinoir (wat)<br/>

Ambipom (weak and frail as hell)<br/>

Eelektross (jack of all trades, master of none - too slow, frail, and weak to be considered mid-tier imo)<br/>

Abomasnow (we aren't in SuMo yet, hail still sucks)<br/>

Avalugg (horrible defensive typing, and about as bad specially speaking as Rhyperior...)<br/>

Cofagrigus (this thing's niche over Jellicent is what exactly?)<br/>

Florges (worse Sylveon)<br/>

Steelix (another case of a joke special defense stat... at least Rhyperior has a decent offensive typing)<br/>

<br/>

Stuff that really needs to rise<br/>

===<br/>

Kabutops (If Kingdra is A-, why isn't Kabutops? It's just as essential for Rain Offense)<br/>

Vaporeon (Why the hell is this beneath Milotic, it gets better support options such as Wish, and has approximately the same amount of bulk)<br/>

Crobat (Probably the biggest travesty here. Its 130 base speed allows it to revenge literally anything without priority, and can tear through stall with Taunt + Super Fang + Roost, which also makes it extremely hard to switch into. Also has deceptively high bulk, and can switch in on stuff like Gengar's Shadow Ball to RK with Stealth Rock and a little bit of chip damage.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

At the moment Garchomp is S rank because if you surround it with the right pokemon it can be a prominent threat. "In essence, what makes Garchomp uniquely suited to checking many threats in OU is removed in this metagame - simply because those those threats do not exist." I'd like to know the many threats that exist in OR/AS OU that don't exist here. You also mentioned that Garchomp has a crippling weakness to Fairy types. The only Fairy types that are used in PvP at the moment are Togekiss, Azumarill, and Clefable (not really). Well in this metagame once you get stealth rock / spikes up, a Swords Dance boosted Iron Head can beat Togekiss and Clefable 1v1. Not to mention that Azumarill is slower than Garchomp and gets 2hko'd by Earthquake (Ohko'd with a Swords Dance up). Also, really the only ice type pokemon that I see being used in OU pokemon are Weavile and Mamoswine. Both of which can't switch in unless they want to loose 50%+ of their health. The point I'm trying to make is that Garchomp's limited number of switch-ins is what makes it S rank. Slowbro, Skarmory (no fire blast), Milotic, and Tangrowth (no fire blast) are the only pokemon that can comfortably switch into Garchomp. Two of which rely on Garchomp not carrying Fire Blast. <br/>

<br/>

Calcs -<br/>

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Togekiss: 336-396 (89.8 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (Timid Togekiss)<br/>

<br/>

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 366-432 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (Calm Clefable)<br/>

<br/>

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 306-362 (77.8 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Bold Clefable)<br/>

<br/>

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 196-232 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO<br/>

<br/>

Sure Talonflame looses 50% of its health upon switching into Stealth Rock and it looses a lot of health from Brave Bird + Flare Blitz but these issues both can be patched quite easily. All you have to do is pair Talonflame with a spinner or a defogger and all you have to do is just play well. Especially considering the fact that Starmie can't be pursuit trapped in this game. If you use Acrobatics instead of Brave Bird you only lose 10 BP (Brave Bird has 120 BP not 130 BP) and you take no recoil damage. And you are only paying attention to Swords Dance Talonflame. Talonflame has access to great defensive / support moves in Will-o-wisp, Priority Roost, and Taunt. With HP and Defense investment Talonflame destroys any offensive team that is not prepared. It can switch into Azumarill's Play Rough, Mamoswine's Earthquake, Scizor's Bullet Punch, Hippowdon's EQ, etc. and burn them with Will-o-wisp rendering them useless. It can Taunt a Hippowdon preventing it from getting up Stealth Rock and recovering with Slack Off. It can Taunt a defensive Arcanine preventing it from recovering with Morning Sun then Acrobatics it to death. It can burn a Tyranitar and Slowbro upon Switch in allowing other pokemon countered by them to wear them down easier. <br/>

<br/>

Hydreigon's base 125 sp attack allows it to pack quite a punch if you ask me. It only lacks Draco Meteor. Hydreigon's ability to break common Defensive cores such as Ferrothorn + Slowbro + Arcanine with the moveset: Taunt, Roost, Dark Pulse, Flamethrower is what makes it such a threat. <br/>

<br/>

I'll see about moving Kabutops, Vaporeon, and Crobat up. <br/>

<br/>

Thank you</r>

[Idkup]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<t>Stuff Garchomp's speed tier lets it revenge or sweep past in OU that don't exist here, when compared to other Dragon options such as Salamence or Dragonite: Charizard-Mega X, Charizard-Mega Y, Diancie (pre-Mega), Gardevoir-Mega, Kyurem-Black, Landorus-Therian, Medicham-Mega, Zapdos.<br/>

<br/>

(I haven't taken into account any of the vast array of UU and below threats which are viable in OU.)<br/>

<br/>

Here, base 102 is less important, as evidenced by the lack of the threats above. I am not arguing that Garchomp is not an excellent Pokemon in this metagame. I am arguing that it does not define the metagame, and is not above other offensive titans such as Gengar, Dragonite, and Excadrill. No one doubts Garchomp's damage output with Swords Dance. The problem lies in the fact that he is easily revenge-killed due to his lack of priority.<br/>

<br/>

Gengar's Shadow Ball hits 0/0 Garchomp for around half. Starmie's Ice Beam is a clean OHKO. Weavile's Ice Punch is a clean OHKO. Talonflame's Sharp Beak Brave Bird hits for about half. Combined with the near-impossibility of setting up Swords Dance safely against Balance/Bulky Offense/Hyper Offense, this essentially restricts Garchomp to one kill a game at best, and dead weight at worst. Furthermore, as you yourself mentioned, stall has Skarmory.<br/>

<br/>

I believe the main difference between our points of view is that you consider the Swords Dance boost a given, whereas I do not. Due to its predictability, Garchomp's Swords Dance is relatively easy to stop. For example, if you switch in on something normally safe such as Magnezone's Thunderbolt and attempt to set up on the switch, you could easily lose half your health to Flash Cannon instead, making you an easy revenge kill. Simply put, Garchomp has issues setting up without taking major damage, which due to its lack of a recovery option is a major issue.<br/>

(As for the Ice and Fairy types, I was more referring to them preventing you from setting up)<br/>

<br/>

As for Talonflame, it requires quite a bit of team support to work effectively, which IMO is what keeps it out of S. However, Stealth Rock is quite difficult to remove against a good team, between HM-Defog not existing, Rapid Spin being blockable by Ghost-types, as well as the loss of momentum incurred by spending a turn to Defog/Spin, which is especially dangerous against those offensive teams that a full-health Talonflame can devastate.<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 118-139 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 120-144 (40.4 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 71-84 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 93% chance to 4HKO<br/>

<br/>

These make it difficult for Talonflame to switch in on any of the Pokemon you mentioned - even Scizor 2HKO's Talonflame after Stealth Rock.<br/>

<br/>

I agree, the Taunt/Acrobatics/Roost/Will-o-Wisp set with defensive investment is a potent threat. But is it really S-Rank?<br/>

<br/>

Point taken on Hydreigon. I'm not very experienced with it and assumed that much of its viability came from a powerful Draco Meteor.</t>

[Tr3y]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="307691"><s></s>307691<e></e></POST> Stuff Garchomp's speed tier lets it revenge or sweep past in OU that don't exist here, when compared to other Dragon options such as Salamence or Dragonite: Charizard-Mega X, Charizard-Mega Y, Diancie (pre-Mega), Gardevoir-Mega, Kyurem-Black, Landorus-Therian, Medicham-Mega, Zapdos.<br/>

<br/>

(I haven't taken into account any of the vast array of UU and below threats which are viable in OU.)<br/>

<br/>

Here, base 102 is less important, as evidenced by the lack of the threats above. I am not arguing that Garchomp is not an excellent Pokemon in this metagame. I am arguing that it does not define the metagame, and is not above other offensive titans such as Gengar, Dragonite, and Excadrill. No one doubts Garchomp's damage output with Swords Dance. The problem lies in the fact that he is easily revenge-killed due to his lack of priority.<br/>

<br/>

Gengar's Shadow Ball hits 0/0 Garchomp for around half. Starmie's Ice Beam is a clean OHKO. Weavile's Ice Punch is a clean OHKO. Talonflame's Sharp Beak Brave Bird hits for about half. Combined with the near-impossibility of setting up Swords Dance safely against Balance/Bulky Offense/Hyper Offense, this essentially restricts Garchomp to one kill a game at best, and dead weight at worst. Furthermore, as you yourself mentioned, stall has Skarmory.<br/>

<br/>

I believe the main difference between our points of view is that you consider the Swords Dance boost a given, whereas I do not. Due to its predictability, Garchomp's Swords Dance is relatively easy to stop. For example, if you switch in on something normally safe such as Magnezone's Thunderbolt and attempt to set up on the switch, you could easily lose half your health to Flash Cannon instead, making you an easy revenge kill. Simply put, Garchomp has issues setting up without taking major damage, which due to its lack of a recovery option is a major issue.<br/>

(As for the Ice and Fairy types, I was more referring to them preventing you from setting up)<br/>

<br/>

As for Talonflame, it requires quite a bit of team support to work effectively, which IMO is what keeps it out of S. However, Stealth Rock is quite difficult to remove against a good team, between HM-Defog not existing, Rapid Spin being blockable by Ghost-types, as well as the loss of momentum incurred by spending a turn to Defog/Spin, which is especially dangerous against those offensive teams that a full-health Talonflame can devastate.<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 118-139 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 120-144 (40.4 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 71-84 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 93% chance to 4HKO<br/>

<br/>

These make it difficult for Talonflame to switch in on any of the Pokemon you mentioned - even Scizor 2HKO's Talonflame after Stealth Rock.<br/>

<br/>

I agree, the Taunt/Acrobatics/Roost/Will-o-Wisp set with defensive investment is a potent threat. But is it really S-Rank?<br/>

<br/>

Point taken on Hydreigon. I'm not very experienced with it and assumed that much of its viability came from a powerful Draco Meteor.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

First of all you calculated the damage on a Talonflame with no HP or Defensive investment so allow to me provide the correct calculations:<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 80-94 (22.2 - 26.1%) -- 9.5% chance to 4HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 144-170 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 84-98 (23.3 - 27.2%) -- approx. 59% chance to 4HKO (Not to mention most Mamoswine in the game are Jolly)<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 32-38 (8.9 - 10.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever<br/>

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0 Atk burned Hippowdon Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 106-126 (29.5 - 35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage<br/>

<br/>

And like you said for Talonflame, Dragonite is greatly hindered by stealth rock due to it's heavy reliance on its ability, Multiscale. Without Multiscale intact, Dragonite struggles to set up on many mons in the metagame. Its speed is an average base 80 and given the amount of Tyranitar / Hippowdon + Excadrill running around I don't see Dragonite deserving its place as an S rank pokemon. Sure you can pair a Defogger or Rapid spinner with Dragonite but that doesn't solve the problem of loosing its multicale to sand. And out of all of the pokemon in the entire game you only mentioned 4 pokemon that can easily revenge kill Garchomp (2 of which can only do half). And I try not to compare PRO to other metagames because they are entirely different. Just because a pokemon's capabilities on another game are not present in the current game doesn't make it bad. When coming up with viability rankings you have to ignore all other games and/or rankings and focus only on the game the pokemon is being ranked in. No pokemon defines the metagame in PRO but some do stand out and prove to be more influential than others. <br/>

<br/>

I understand what you are saying about Excadrill but I feel as though it is not an S rank pokemon. It relies heavily on the Sand and is EASILY revenge killed without it. Even in the sand pokemon such as Breloom, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and Conkeldurr can pick Excadrill off with their respective priority moves. Its bulk is below par unlike Garchomp and relies on Earthquake as its strongest STAB move unlike Garchomp's Outrage and ability to carry Iron Head and Rock Slide just like Excadrill. Excadrill is walled by Hippowdon and is denied the ability to set up a Swords Dance on it due to its crippling weakness to the omnipresent Earthquake. Its Defensive and Choice Scarf sets shouldn't even be mentioned because its ability Mold Breaker is not working and there is no Choice Scarf. It is heavily walled by Skarmory and doesn't have any options of dealing with it unlike Garchomp's Fire Fang, Flamethrower, and Fire Blast.</r>