PVP Feedback - Landorus

[Nab]

With all due respect, Lando Incarnate should be a definite ban. It is the definition of a toxic pokemon for pvp, with it being viable in almost archetype and still thriving. I compare it to a fast Nidoking, reason being nidoking is a strong pokemon which thrives in a sticky webs team, however Nidoking alone is a mediocre pokemon that is outspeed by alot of the metagame. Now let us look at Lando Incarnate. 101 speed (It is alright) but with a whopping 125 attack and 115 special attack combined with sheer force and the possibility of a life orb makes it potentially the strongest pokemon to be introduced to PRO. (Basically Ubers Nidoking). The fact that it has so few counters (4x to ice, 2x to water) will determine the meta. Weavile and Mamoswine already are some of the most used pokemon and potentially achieving top 5 in most used pokemon because of Lando already explains why Landorus should be banned. AND even then a scarfed Lando despite being less versatile will kill Mamo and Weavile seeing as Mamo and Weavile are usually choice locked by scarf and band respectively. Now we look from the Ubers point of view. According to smogon it is countered by the Arceus formes, Mega salamence, Marshadow, Lugia, Deoxys-Attack, Mewtwo, Origin Giratina, Primal Kyogre, Ultra Necrozma, Celesteela, Bronzong, Skarmory, Bronzong, Chansey and Blissey. Out of this entire pool of pokemon only 4 are available in PRO (Definitely more than 4 looking at what can kill it in PRO) Which leads to the question of does adding this means allowing all other Uber pokemon into PRO and killing the pvp scene just so you can balance the meta to justify adding a pokemon that is banned in OU? Ill leave it at that for the other players to process and decide. But my vote to ban Landorus INCARNATE (only) is a yes.

[Nab]

Stall is already starting to play Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian. This is simply disinformation - balance suffers most from Landorus-Incarnate existing.

Yep, Nidoking kills balance too, Only Nidoking has a speed tier that barely outspeeds less than half of the meta game, which requires a team built around it to thrive while Landorus Incarnate can be slapped into any team and still thrive because of it's respectable speed tier and amazing typing.

[Nornornor444]

To be fair, Lando I isn't that broken as people think it is. Just because it's Ubers doesn't mean anything. Almost no one in uber uses it. And if I am being honest,Tornadus Therian is more broken than Lando I. It's A+ in Gen7 OU only because there are checks for it like Tapu Koko, Magearna etc. But as for PRO, there's no reliable check for Torn T other than what, rotom wash? Zapdos? Back to point, Landorus I is a great stallbreaker, at least but it can be taken out easily, no?Offensively speaking, Lando I can be checked by Weavile/Azum/Rain teams which are most used in PRO. And, I don't see how Lando I deals with Gliscor without HP Ice. And Rotom Wash can be a check for Lando I, no? Maybe not reliably.. Heck, Lando I even loses to specs Swellow with Boomburst. All I am saying is that there are enough checks for Lando I in PRO meta to not make it insanely OP. I never used Lando I, and I don't care about it at all. But after thinking about it for a while, I would vote for it to not be banned.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Nornornor444

[Digomenezes]

i think some of this things too, but, there is always players that complain about everything and use 6 tricks with scarf in pvp, xDD

[Novus]

Reminder that opinions without reasonable/valid arguments will not be taken into account. Please make some effort to justify why it should be banned.

[Coono]

I would like to specify that I am in favor of a Landorus ban. Now that I got that out of the way, I would like to mention a few things. Do not blindly follow Smogon. Why? Because, by that logic, Greninja should also be banned as it was in the Uber tier in ORAS OU and was only made more bearable in USUM OU thanks to new additions such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and whatnot. This is an important point because following Smogon entails banning Greninja and only unbanning it in the future. I would also like to remind all our Smogon lovers that Greninja was suspect tested before Landorus in ORAS OU. In fact, Greninja received more pro-ban votes than Landorus did. PRO was able to adapt to Greninja, which is still extremely strong on paper, yet somehow keeps underperforming. There are various reasons for this, such as the priority spam, but this is not a post about Greninja. I only brought it up to showcase why PRO is inherently different than Showdown and should abide by its own rules. "Smogon banned it, therefore it should be banned in PRO" is a moot point. Can you tell me why you think Landorus should be banned? There are certainly several pro-ban arguments that are applicable to PRO. However, I would like to tell you guys why it should not be banned and let you figure out why you so adamantly want it banned.

 

ABR gave some good anti-ban arguments during the Landorus suspect test. In PRO, Landorus has the potential to beat all of its checks, with the exception of Cresselia, but is unable to beat all of them at the same time. In this, Landorus is somewhat similar to Greninja and Manaphy. It does not have a 4MSS since it can still effectively do its job with the moves that it picks. What do you run on Landorus? There are so many sets! Earth Power is mandatory, but the other options are so varied: Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Psychic, Hidden Power Ice, Knock Off, Rock Polish, Calm Mind, etc. On Showdown, everyone was able to use and abuse a perfect Landorus with HP Ice and 331 speed (which is above the critical 328-speed tier). How many people have a good Landorus with HP Ice? Without HP Ice, which is hard to get, Landorus is prone to losing to Gliscor, Landorus-T, and many more threats. In general, depending on its set, Landorus-T can be easily revenge killed (especially if it chooses to run Calm Mind over Rock Polish) or even checked by the likes of Skarmory, Tornadus-T, Gliscor, Chansey, Latios/Latias, Gyarados, Slowking, Cresselia, etc. Can it beat all of them (minus Cresselia)? Yes, of course, but it is unable to beat all of them at once! Scout before attempting to check Landorus with your Gliscor or Chansey. On top of that, it is not easy to get Landorus in for free with the way that U-turn and Volt Switch work in PRO. Due to how rarely used Landorus is, players might not necessarily always prepare for it. You also have to choose between Landorus and Landorus-T, since you are unable to use both. However, the lack of preparation for Landorus is not a pro-ban argument. Why? Because Landorus is not overcentralizing to an unhealthy extent; many of its checks are naturally used on several teams and will remain highly viable long after Landorus gets the chop.

 

Do you know what is actually quite overcentralizing in PRO at the moment? Manaphy. That is something you have to be specifically prepared for in order to avoid getting 6-0'd. Power Whip Ferrothorn, Unaware Clefable, Chansey, priority users, and faster threats are all increasingly common. Yet, Manaphy is able to beat all those threats with the right coverage: HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Rain Dance for Chansey, maybe Mystic Water and a Modest nature for most Unaware Clefable sets, barring perhaps the uncommon Calm Unaware set, etc. Somewhat similarly to Landorus, Manaphy is able to beat all its checks, but cannot beat them all at once.

 

Despite everything I just said, I am in favor of a Landorus ban. I have read and researched enough to make up my own opinion on the matter. Does it mean that I am unable to acknowledge arguments that do not align with what I think? No, absolutely not! We should not be too Manichean or too categorical. In Landorus' case, I believe that the pro-ban arguments far outweigh the anti-ban arguments. This is why it should be banned, in my opinion. But do all of you know what the valid pro-ban arguments are? Have you even seen enough of Landorus in PvP to make such a definitive pro-ban decision?

 

Um I believe that was ash-greninja, which we do not have. Greninja is 100% legal in gen 7 OU.

[Nab]

Um I believe that was ash-greninja, which we do not have. Greninja is 100% legal in gen 7 OU.

Protean Greninja used to be Ubers

[Benikisaki]

With all due respect, it seems that everyone is talking about theoretical stuff, like what it could be doing, how everyone just says its broken and how it is banned on showdown (which honestly I can’t stand hearing anymore, because you all cite showdown only when it’s convenient for you and otherwise you say it’s another game, which in fact it is). I would like to see some real pro related evidence for this poke to be banned, but I can to see any.

 

Now, who can say he had real and consistent problems with Lando in PRO pvp? It’s been out for a while and I have encountered only one so far and I didn’t have trouble at all handling it. This is for both the facts that it’s hard to obtain a good one, since its does not only require good stats, ha and possibly hp ice, but also because many super common pokes used in our meta do not have troubles killing (Weavile, Greninja, Rain sweepers) or walling it (Chansey and some others). So if you have problems because it breaks your stall team, that’s unfortunate, but I sure not agree that that’s reason enough to make such a big deal of this Poke and claim it disrupts the whole game without any proof of it doing it. On the other hand, a Poke which is far more broken in my opinion is Manaphy, so easy to abuse and so hard to revenge kill. And on top of that, PRO is lacking several means to take it on as well, which is not the case with Lando. However, nobody is taking action on it, but everyone rather bans a poke which is not even giving trouble.

 

In the end my post might be for nothing because everyone here is voting for ban. But at least let’s not hide the fact that the most people voting for ban have most probably never even faced or had troubles with Lando in PRO and then abuse Manaphy or Scarf Kiss but are ok with them being allowed because in showdown, which as a completely different meta, they are not Ubers.

[Ashish7]

it should not be banned. Just remove h.a.

[Gdarch]

With all due respect, it seems that everyone is talking about theoretical stuff, like what it could be doing, how everyone just says its broken and how it is banned on showdown (which honestly I can’t stand hearing anymore, because you all cite showdown only when it’s convenient for you and otherwise you say it’s another game, which in fact it is). I would like to see some real pro related evidence for this poke to be banned, but I can to see any.

 

Now, who can say he had real and consistent problems with Lando in PRO pvp? It’s been out for a while and I have encountered only one so far and I didn’t have trouble at all handling it. This is for both the facts that it’s hard to obtain a good one, since its does not only require good stats, ha and possibly hp ice, but also because many super common pokes used in our meta do not have troubles killing (Weavile, Greninja, Rain sweepers) or walling it (Chansey and some others). So if you have problems because it breaks your stall team, that’s unfortunate, but I sure not agree that that’s reason enough to make such a big deal of this Poke and claim it disrupts the whole game without any proof of it doing it. On the other hand, a Poke which is far more broken in my opinion is Manaphy, so easy to abuse and so hard to revenge kill. And on top of that, PRO is lacking several means to take it on as well, which is not the case with Lando. However, nobody is taking action on it, but everyone rather bans a poke which is not even giving trouble.

 

In the end my post might be for nothing because everyone here is voting for ban. But at least let’s not hide the fact that the most people voting for ban have most probably never even faced or had troubles with Lando in PRO and then abuse Manaphy or Scarf Kiss but are ok with them being allowed because in showdown, which as a completely different meta, they are not Ubers.

To complete what you said we must add that Manaphy was Uber in BW. And as PRO is somewhere between BW and X/Y I think it should have been banned for having forced the meta to play around ferrothorn/rotom wash/ unaware clef because of rain teams. Regarding Landorus with Sheer Force, it’s true that PRO environment (uturn doesn’t work properly, godly iv hard to obtain for common mortals etc) makes it difficult to be compared to the threat it was on showdown but do we have to wait for someone to find the good compo to expose how broken it can be on PRO ? Because our meta already manages to deal with it by using weavile as revenge killer or strong priority from azumarill and mamoswine does it really mean this is healthy for the meta ? I tought a good reason for banning a pokemon was how he limits team building. For me this is definitely the case with landorus sheer force.