State of the Metagame: Kyurem

[Jorogumo]

As part of our continuing commitment to monitoring developments in the metagame, the PvP Coordinators have noticed that Kyurem is quite possibly a presence that is overcentralizing, difficult to prepare for, and perhaps too strong for our current available answers. This belief is reflected in our recent Viability Rankings update, where Kyurem is now in S-tier.

 

We highly encourage you to participate in this discussion and offer opposing viewpoints, as we recognize that any discussion within a small group of relatively similar people is liable to produce the same ideas, regardless of their competence. We are especially interested in hearing your thoughts on Kyurem's role in the current metagame. Have you had difficulty handling it with your current team? Has it invalidated any builds you wanted to try? Or, on the other hand, are you having success utilizing it?

 

While Kyurem has several viable sets, including Choice Specs and Choice Scarf, we believe it is at its most dangerous when running Substitute, Roost, and Freeze-Dry. On Gold server, players tend to prefer the fourth move Earth Power, while on Silver, players also favor Toxic. This set is able to safely create Substitutes on a vast majority of the viable defensive Pokémon in the PRO metagame, especially balance staples such as Tangrowth and Rotom-Wash. Its titanic base HP stat permits it to easily reach 405 maximum HP, thereby creating 101 HP Substitutes which Seismic Toss Chansey cannot break. Ferrothorn, despite a nominal type advantage, is simply run out of Gyro Ball due to Pressure, while even something like Eviolite Bisharp is faced with the possibility of a straight 2HKO from Earth Power as well as both Substitute and Roost, denying Sucker Punch. Against offensive teams, the combination of Freeze-Dry, Earth Power, and Kyurem's natural bulk forces switches to no end, which it can easily set Substitute on, guaranteeing that it claims a kill shortly thereafter.

 

However, Kyurem's weakness to Stealth Rock and the relative speed of the metagame do somewhat hold it back. Mega Lopunny teams tend to play at a pace that does not often let Kyurem enter the field, while Mega Scizor is one of very few immediately safe defensive answers (though, in an extended interaction, it can certainly eventually get frozen or worn down by hazards). Mega Metagross immediately threatens Kyurem with its faster speed and massive power but simply cannot come in on Kyurem using Substitute more than once. Slowking, which is rapidly gaining popularity, is both a good teammate for Kyurem and a form of counterplay. With Future Sight, it can ensure that a teammate safely enters the field to face a Kyurem without a Substitute while barely dodging the 2HKO from Freeze-Dry. Ultimately, Kyurem is sometimes manageable in battle, even when it poses extreme strain on the teambuilder.

 

We will take into account all feedback we receive before the end of the season, when we intend to make a final decision. Well-constructed and defended reasonings will naturally be given more weight, but we do care even if your opinion is simply that you like the Pokémon. At this time, there are no other Pokémon or combinations that are immediately on our radar, but we will keep you updated as soon as possible if that changes.

Edited Sunday at 10:20 PM by Jorogumo

[Mysticwind]

Hello, first thanks for your work as PvP council!

 

I will give my opinion about Kyurem in the current meta while it have some counter like Mega Medicham/Lopunny and many, I think it is not healthy for your meta right now.

 

-First of all : Freeze Dry, I dont think in your current meta it is good. Will use this examole for the future, while Azumarill was a "counter" (if you dont miss Play Rough) it is not anymore possible due to this move but like you mentionned the non item information can be crucial even If HDB is not in game currently you cant know the set of Kyurem in the game (SubRoost or Specs)

 

-Hail Def boost in the game, it is something more broken with the SubRolst set, just sub in front of a stall pokemon how cant break your sub, Pressure it ans you can change the whole game with.

 

I personally do not believe that kyurem is particularly broken or bannable at the moment but need to be in wanted list until more pokemon is added.

[Lol1hp]

i dont have kyurem yet but Kyurem is my favorite mons to give preasure to staller. 
im afraid if u guys remove kyurem, most of pvp players will using 6 stall mons again and pvp not fun anymore.

 

[Kauanl0rd]

I disagree with this opinion that Kyurem is too broken for the meta. He is one of the few wallbreakers we currently have. Besides, more stall Pokémon should arrive later and it won't be fun. Having answers against this type of team is good, many players have difficulty and don't like playing against stall teams, I think it's fair to leave at least one card up your sleeve to have a chance to win. 

Edited Monday at 12:36 AM by Kauanl0rd

[Iceflake]

""Not Ban""
Think I played almost 70 games last season with a Stall Kyurem, ran a Sub,Roost,Protect,Freeze dry set and overall.  Didn't feel like Kyurem was overly toxic towards the metagame.  Scizor would use it as set up fodder and Bronzong wouldn't care at all for it and just set up its stuff then boom.  With it being weak to stealth rocks and the abundance of lopunny/Scizor around to keep it in check I don't think its ban worthy.  Sure its "Annoying" but I don't think annoying = Ban worthy.  The metagame isn't shifting towards ways of stopping kyurem.  More like there were already ways already being played which kept kyruem in check.

[Unbannedme]

I don't want Kyurem to be banned

Although Kyurem is a strong Pokémon with a difficult-to-handle moveset, I believe it still has certain weaknesses that prevent it from completely dominating the metagame. Here are a few reasons why Kyurem should not be banned:

 1.Major Weaknesses: Stealth Rock and Speed(base 95).

 2.Reasonable Counterplay Exists: M-Scicor,M-Metagross,M-Lopunny,... etc.

 3.Not Overwhelming the Metagame:

   +Kyurem pressures teambuilding, but it is not unmanageable in battle. Common Pokémon like Mega Lopunny, Mega Scizor, and balanced bulky offense cores can keep it in check.
   +Future Sight users like Slowking make it difficult for Kyurem to safely use Substitute repeatedly.

 

In conclusion, I think Kyurem is a big threat but not so much that it's impossible to deal with. Keeping it in the metagame would make PvP more interesting, rather than removing it.

 

 

[Machao754]

Kyurem needs to be banned.

I will start by addressing the above comments:

1) The best possible set for Kyurem is Substitute Freeze Dry EarthPower Roost.  Toxic or Protect is just objectively worse, as it makes Kyurem more "annoying" to deal with, but in exchange, kyurem would be walled by pretty much any steel type.  The only reason you would run such a set is to stall PPs, which on a pressure stall team might be logical.  Otherwise for any normal team, having the ability to hit steel types such as magnezone, metagross, mawile, heatran, bisharp, aegislash while you are behind a sub and do not risk taking any super effective damage is one of the major reasons why it is broken.

2) Stall... I don't know how many times I need to hear PRO players complaining about stall.  Every time they see anything fat, it is defaulted to stall.  No, banning Kyurem would not suddenly make people run 6 stall Pokemons.  Idk why the common perception is every team on the ladder is either hyper offense or a stall team.  I am beyond convinced that bulky offense is the BEST playstyle right now.  At least in the 150 battles I've done last season, I fought like less than 5 teams I'll actually call "stall", and maybe like 2 of them are piloted by good players.  Stall is not good and most of the top players know it.  Just think about it from an objective standpoint.  If the game already cut the number of recovery moves in half for you and you still can't beat it, it is likely a problem with you (yes you not trying to punish stall by making low risk double switches) or your team (which is just not built to break stall).  Please go back to the drawing board and build a better team.

3) Stall... pt 2.  A lot of people who argue that "Kyurem" is the only stallbreaker we have fails to acknowledge the role Kyurem has on stall teams itself.  I will tell you, Pressure Suicune might be annoying on stall, but Pressure Kyurem is the real menace, especially one where you cannot switch in LOL.  Why is Kyurem used on stall teams ??? Because Stall teams need to Stallbreak themselves, and with Sub Roost, Kyurem itself is literally a stall Pokemon... (the existence you guys literally hate) Idk if you guys ever experience the despair of Kyurem stalling you out of PP, or having to take 80% on a crucial stallbreaking pokemon just to tank a freeze dry / earth power just to break a sub.  If you have not, then you are not fighting good Kyurem players...

Ok now that that's done, here is why I think Kyurem needs to be banned in addition to the above.

 

1) No switch-ins (I am only considering Meta Pokemons)

Let's first consider what differs Ice beam Kyurem from Freeze Dry Kyurem.

Ice Beam Kyurem: Gets walled by literally any water type.  Even something like Rotom-Wash can Hydro into Volt switch and break a sub.  Keldeo comes in easily.  Azumarill comes in easily.  Offensive and Defensive pokemon can both break sub without taking significant damage and force it out to take another round of rocks.  Overall, not a huge threat.

Freeze Dry Kyurem: Yeah, no.  None of the above can deal with it anymore.  Every Water type pretty much just dies to two freeze dries (except one that I will mention later in checks/counters).

Ok, now let's look at Steel types, don't those wall Ice types?
Ferrothorn -- Gyroball, gets out stalled, Heatran -- dies to earthpower, Scizor -- Yes actually is a viable check, Aegislash -- dies to earthpower, Bisharp -- dies to earthpower, has to play some sucker punch / Iron head mind games if it wants to get more damage off, otherwise a 2hko, same is the case with Mawile.

Everyone's favorite Chansey??? -- gets outstalled by 101 HP substitutes.

Ok, so let's see what I have been using in teambuilding to survive against kyurem:

"Counters" -- pretty consistent against Kyurem, can always rely on switching in

1) Calm Clefable: Yes, everyone's favorite clefable does beat Kyurem.  Calm w/ or w/o Calmmind is honestly pretty reliable against Kyurem, but a lot of the times, giving up at running Bold Clefables is not really good since Kyurem user pair their team with Lopunny, which means if Clefable is your defensive backbone, it will get overwhelmed.

2) Scizor: One of the best counters to Kyurem in game, both normal form and Kyurem black... Nothing else really to add, just walls it.

3) Volcarona: Yes volcarona does wall kyurem, and it can bypass substitute with Bugbuzz.  One of the best kyurem checks.  It's only disadvantage is if rocks are up and you can't get a timely defog, this thing is gonna pay a huge cost for coming in...

"Pretty good checks" i.e. Pokemon that can force it out without your team falling apart

1) Slowking -- Yes slowking is a good check.  A Calm 252hp, 252spDef set allows you to eat 2 freeze dries and fire off a future sight, which if you stall one following turn and chilly reception out, you get to go into a faster mon that can kill it with the future sight gone.  However, you come out of this exchange with 1) less healthy slowking, which means if you were to do this exchange again, you are going to suffer, and 2) you just set snow for the Kyurem, meaning yeah, you might even struggle to kill it due to Kyurem's insane stats.

2) Yeah that's about it... lol

"Bad checks" i.e. Pokemon that can force it out, but you risk your whole team falling apart

There's a lot of pokemon that fit this category, including the lopunnys and medichams I see in the above post.... But have you wonder, if Kyurem can take 50% off of your lopunny in exchange for a substitute of your lopunny and switch out, isn't the Kyurem user the one benefitting from these exchange.  In addition, the next time Lopunny comes in, it just dies.  If you are relying on Lopunny to outspeed and kill most of the opponent's team, this is a huge huge loss (which a lot of lopunny teams do).  I am just using that as an example, but the same holds for a lot of other pokemons.  Saying this does not help the discussion at all.  Any pokemon is going to be able to be outspeed and killed by some other thing, that is without a doubt.  But for Kyurem, as we established already, it threatens everything, meaning it gets substitutes very easily and kills everything / makes very good trades for 25% of its HP.  Kyurem is very fast as well (comparatively), meaning that this already limits the pokemons that can reliably check it.

So, I encourage people to stop using the "Just Mach Punch It BRO" mentality type argument.  We are not going to get anywhere.

2) Huge limits on Teambuilding

This is a subsequent result of 1).  With only 3 switch ins and 1 good check, Kyurem is very oppressive as if you want to beat it reliably, you are forced to run the above.  And one of them is a Mega pokemon.... Of course, you can argue, hey doesn't Bronzong and magnet rise Klefki wall this thing?  Or Sylveon, remember that?? And yes, you would be right.  But I would argue that falls into the direct definition of an unhealthy metagame.  If we are relying on niche picks to wall Kyurem, then it is unhealthy.

3) Freeze
Hey, you know what's worse than losing an important pokemon to Kyurem?? Getting your whole team frozen.  Don't underestimate 10% man, when you need to rely on defensive Pokemons tanking a lot of Freeze Dries to survive stuff like this just happens...  And then ofc you are going to blame the game blah blah blah...

4) Literally makes some archeotypes unplayable

Rain users rise up.  Your Archeotype is literally rendered unplayable by this pokemon  Tell me what you are going to do when turn 1 Pelipper vs Kyurem and it sets up a substitute.  Your entire team just dies.

 

Final thoughts:

If you guys want a healthy metagame and not one where your life goal is to beat every stall team in existence, then banning Kyurem is the way to go.  Trust me, you will still be able to beat stall with stuff like Fire Fang Mega Mawile, Future Sight Slowking into Physical Attackers (which is a secret tech I will reveal in exchange for banning Kyurem).  I will promise you, when Kyurem start appearing on opposing stall teams, you will understand what it is like and want to ban this thing with pretty much no switch ins.

Of course, please feel free to let me know if you guys have any thoughts on what else walls Kyurem as I am out of ideas.

Edited Monday at 04:26 AM by Machao754

[0danobunaga]

Let me state all set for normal Kyurem from my thought

1. Sub roost earth power freeze dry

- usually use for pp stall 

-buffed able to kill water type by using freeze dry 

-freeze dry 32pp 

2. Sub roost toxic freeze dry

-usually use for pp stall+ kill almost of pokemon except some steel type( heatran, Scizor-Mega ) but still have some chance to kill for waiting frozen status 

-even use Scizor-Mega to counter kyurem but still need to think kyurem can pair with magnezone

-who said use gyro ball to kill kyurem is useless since kyurem just stall out gyro ball pp

3. Specs/scarf set blizzard freeze dry earth power and hidden power/focus blast 

-Usually pair with slowking(chilly reception+future sight) 

-snow buffed defensive x1.5 

-Free blizzard acc 100% in snow 

 

In conclusion, freeze dry is broken

 

 

 

 

[Ahir]

It's a threat to the current metagame.

I personally like kyurem but it's hard to face it if you don't have the certain check/counter to it.

It threatens both the offensive and defensive play styles.

Even the counters ain't good enough with the existence of "freeze". 

Edited Monday at 07:21 AM by Ahir

[Praveen00]

Ban kyurem