PvP Viability Thread

[Expendable99]

Well here I go again :|

 

The top tiers are way too crowded, while the bottom tiers are kind of empty in terms of pokemon that are somewhat relevant. If you look at the official Smogon viability rankings, being in C ranks does not mean it can't be seen at all, but rather it holds some niche that keeps it as a threat to keep in mind. Now if you look at this tiering system, pretty much anything below B+ is hot trash, which should not be the way it is organized.

 

Without further ado, lets start filling in the B ranks :)

 

S Rank:

Togekiss S->A/A+ (Somewhere around there but it needs to drop)

Togekiss needs to go it relies too much on flinching stuff to death, and is generally extremely predictable. It's pretty weak to status and most people aren't smart enough to run heal bell in order to stall break better. Scarf straight up is dead weight against any team with a Chansey or Blissey, while the slower build are pretty slow and end up struggling against faster teams that can constantly put pressure on it.

 

A Rank:

Heatran A+ -> S

Weavile A+ -> A

Skarmory A+ ->A

Heatran does really well against many types of teams and will rarely be in a matchup where it is useless. It's arguably the best Clef check available, being able to shut it down with taunt. It's also extremely easy to put up rocks with Heatran, and it beats much of the common hazard removal that people run. It also does well against other meta mons, like the common steel and fairy types. Though magma storm was banned, which takes out a large chunk of its utility (I'd honestly argue S+ if magma storm wasn't banned), it still does its job extremely well as a utility mon and deserves S rank

Weavile really needs pursuit to do its job correctly. Clef is on practically every team and is a really easy switch into Weavile, so without pursuit it struggles to do anything particularly meaningful (Besides freeze half the enemy team to death because people still don't run crash), especially if it doesn't run poison jab, which makes it more vulnerable to steels

Recent meta trends don't really favor Skarm, there's an apparent increase in the usage of Heatran, which destroys it, as well as rain, which it struggles to do much against and loses momentum for the team against.

 

A Rank:

Alakazam A->A+

Blissey A->B

Crawdaunt A->A-

Gyarados A->B+

Ninetales A-> B-

Omastar A->B-

Politoed A->B-

Snorlax A->B-

Scizor A->B+

Alakazam is a very underrated threat. It hits extremely hard, and since pursuit isn't coded properly it can't be pursuit trapped, meaning it can constantly come in and dish out damage without having to worry about being revenged easily by Weavile or Ttar

Blissey is just worse Chansey why are people still running this thing? Chansey's fatter. You get ice beam but with Blissey's spatk you're honestly doing more damage with a seismic toss even if it is 2x effective.

Crawdaunt hits extremely hard, but its speed and bulk are relatively easy to exploit and difficult to actually put that into practice without a trick room, which sadly isn't in PRO. Against offensive teams you'll probably be forced to aqua jet in order to actually get a hit off, which is pretty easy to predict.

Gyarados honestly should drop even lower. It struggles to break through teams and kick start moxie (which most people run) without Flynium Z. Most teams are better off using a bulky water like Suicune, which will generally provide better utility in most matchups.

Sun is just crappy rain that doesn't even give the damage bonus to the sweeper's stabs. Ninetales also has a secret move where you can attempt to bribe the other player with crappy shinies and 500k, but it only has worse accuracy than focus miss.

Omastar's just a bad Kingdra. It's a lot slower, has a much worse typing than Kingdra, being both weak to electric and grass which isn't nice on a rain team, especially if you decide to run a physical sweeper in Kabutops, and you'll lose to any other rain team that runs a Kingdra. Just don't run the mon.

What is Politoed doing here? Pelipper is better in every way.

Snorlax gets completely shut down by taunt. It takes too long to set up with curse, and during that time it's way too easy to bring in something to take it down or prepare to revenge kill it. This mon honestly hasn't been very relevant for the longest time.

U-turn not being coded properly hurts it, and the way the metagame is really hurts it as well, with Scizor not being able to do much against dominant playstyles like rain and stall. I honestly have yet to see a game where the enemy Scizor has gotten a single KO

 

A- Rank:

Donphan A- -> UR

Entei A- -> B+

Goodra A- -> B

Ludicolo A- -> UR

Lucario A-->B+

Jellicent A- -> B+

Donphan's like Anakin in a pod race except in its case spinning isn't even a good trick. It's a hazard setter and a hazard remover that gets beat by every hazard setter and hazard remover. It also wishes it had the high ground like Lando but sadly it gets bopped by +2 EQ from Excadrill. Enough said.

Banded sacred fire in sun doesn't hit as hard

There's literally no point in using Goodra over Chansey. Someone with a Ferro's only gonna fall for the sap sipper garbage once, and that's only because there's no team preview. It lacks any recovery whatsoever, making it very easy to wear down. It also

No reason to use it over Kingdra it's pretty much worse in every regard, has less speed, spatk, a less useful secondary stab, and if you run this mon you will lose to every other rain team out there that runs Kingdra. Deport it to Mexico please

Jellicent's still usable since rain's becoming a lot more prevalent. However, Gastrodon arguably does its job better, while also being a bit more useful in other matchups due to its better defensive typing and physical bulk. The main draw of Jellicent in ORAS was being immune to Keldeo's dual stabs, which isn't present in PRO. It's outclassed in being your rain check, but still holds it niche with access to taunt and w-o-w.

Lucario not particularly good at anything besides being the subject of some rather questionable art. It's outclassed as a fighting type wallbreaker by Heracross, which has a better attack, ability, and secondary stab. It can get a bit hard to set up with Lucario, since it has low defenses, and even after one swords dance many mons will still shrug off its hits, like Slowbro. Its also limited by its moveslots, since it can either go for ice punch or meteor mash, and forgoing one or the other leads it to be either annoyed by fairies or flying types

 

 

B+ Rank:

Arcanine B+ -> B-

Dusknoir B+->UR

Galvantula B+->B

Jolteon B+->B/B-

Lanturn B+ -> UR

Poliwrath B+->UR

Rotom H B+ ->C+

If you're using offensive Arcanine, take a look at its offensive stats and pick another offensive fire type like Darmanitan or Infernape. If you're using defensive Arcanine, take a look at its fire type and unreliable recovery (We all know how much PRO loves weather) and use another physically defensive pokemon that has useful resistances on the physical side and doesn't have weather dependent recovery.

Dusknoir is worse than Dusclops. Dusclops is worse than every other defensive mon. Pain split isn't the most reliable recovery, and its ghost type isn't particularly good as a defensive typing, since there are relatively few fighting types around in PRO. If you're gonna use one of them use Dusclops both hit like wet rags anyways and at least Dusclops gets eviolite.

Smeargle is more reliable at setting webs than Galvantula, which is pretty much the only thing Galvantula is good at. You'll generally not want to be using this thing to pick up KOs. If you are, rethink your team because you don't have enough mons that can abuse webs.

Jolteon is too frail and doesn't hit hard enough. The fact that volt switch isn't coded properly doesn't really help either.

Lanturn wishes it could be as scary of a threat as the angler fish in Nemo. It lacks any reliable recovery and is extremely easy to wear down, plus its bulk isn't as good as it would seem based off of its fat appearance

Use a better pokemon for your bulky water Poliwrath has a fighting type that it would rather not have, as well as a lack of reliable recovery. IT also has a lower special attack than other bulky waters, and its limited by its moveslots, since it can opt to run rest talk or ice beam. Milotic does everything it does but better.

Rotom H is a waste of your Rotom same stats, but a less useful fire type that gives it more weaknesses, including a bad weakness to stealth rock for a mon that already struggles with recovery and a weakness to water. Hydro pump also is pretty handy to have around. It's already hard enough to get a Rotom don't bother wasting it

 

Literally everything in B and below (Except Aero and Chandelure they can stay I guess) B/B-/C+ -> Unranked

This garbage doesn't belong on a list you'd honestly be better off running endeavor Rattata

As a second thought move them all to S rank I want to farm pvp wins again

 

I can elaborate more on some of them later right now I'm feeling lazy

Edited June 8, 2018 by Shaui

[Kaminokage]

Blissey A->B

Blissey is just worse Chansey why are people still running this thing? Chansey's fatter. You get ice beam but with Blissey's spatk you're honestly doing more damage with a seismic toss even if it is 2x effective.

I would say the opposite, Chansey is a weaker Blissey. It's totally false that Seismic toss does less damages than 2* effective move from Blissey. We have no mega and not all legendaries on PRO Meta, PKM has weaker spdef than Official Game meta; it's why Blissey does more damages with Ice Beam, Flamethrower, even Thunderbolt.

 

Some example :

Bisharp :

0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 136-162 (50.1 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Bisharp: 100-100 (36.9 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Bisharp Lum Berry can't OHKO Blissey after Swords dance Knock off.

 

Nidoking :

0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 130-154 (42.9 - 50.8%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Nidoking: 100-100 (33 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

Latios :

0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 94-112 (31.2 - 37.2%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Latios: 100-100 (33.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Even against some legendaries it can be strong.

 

Breloom :

0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 156-184 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 4 HP Breloom: 100-100 (38.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Togekiss :

0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 90-108 (28.9 - 34.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Togekiss: 100-100 (32.1 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I admit, in that case seismic toss can be a little better.

 

Excadrill Careful Leftovers:

0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Excadrill: 98-116 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Blissey Seismic Toss vs. 252 HP Excadrill: 100-100 (23.5 - 23.5%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

I admit, in that case, some plays Excadrill Careful Assault vest, and in that case Seismic toss does a little more damages. But no recovery from Leftovers on Excadrill is not the best build.

 

 

Some funs fact :

You can have secondary effect on Ice beam, Flamethrower or Thunderbolt.

Chansey get totally walled by Gengar Taunt :) or others PKM with taunt :')

But i admit Seismic toss is better to deal with Heatran.

[Expendable99]

Well out of those not many are going to bother stay in on a Chansey or Blissey. The damage output on most of Blissey's attacks are pathetic, and the way it plays out in PRO most people fool themselves into thinking their attack is actually going to do damage.

 

The thing you forgot to mention is that Chansey takes a lot less damage, especially on the physical side because of its eviolite augmented bulk

 

Specs Latios (Honestly was considering rising Latios. Its specs set is very underrated, especially since even if you pick the wrong move you aren't punished as hard due to no pursuit)

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 357-420 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-307 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Kingdra:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Rain: 274-324 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 226-267 (32.1 - 38%) -- 95.5% chance to 3HKO

With rocks up it's a lot easier for Kingdra to find the extra chip it needs on Blissey than Chansey to sweep through

 

Blissey's pathetic 4x effectives:

 

0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 136-164 (38.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You pretty much recover all of it right back with leech seed and leftovers. Literally every time someone's run flamethrower on Blissey they stay in 1 or 2 turns more than they should and give me free spikes. I've seen people double out to Blissey on the Ferro switch in to pick up that veteran chip with flamethrower. No. Just no :'(.

 

0 SpA Blissey Ice Beam vs. 244 HP / 200+ SpD Gliscor: 188-224 (53.4 - 63.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

Roost takes out flying type, so chances are the average PRO players gonna stay in to shave another 25% off while the Gliscor roosts and picks up even more swords dances

 

Your purpose of running Blissey or Chansey is to have a special and partially physical wall and provide utility to your team with rocks or heal bell support. The purpose of running Blissey or Chansey is not to be attacking the enemy mon. That is what the rest of the team is for. If you're running stall, then there's absolutely no reason to be using an attacking move on Blissey as opposed to using status and hazards to chip down the opponent's pokemon.

 

If you're predicting their mon to come in, and get the prediction right, you're better of just flat out switching to your check/counter, except shaving off a bit with one of Blissey's attacks, then being forced to switch out the next turn and having another mon take damage that it shouldn't have. And anyways against a lot of taunt users you're not going to be staying in anyways. Have fun getting that nice chip against a Mandibuzz or Jellicent or something like that when you're taunted.

 

But oh wait 100% freeze hax from ice beam I take that back run scarf ice beam on everything PRO it actually wins all your games the RNG is busted

 

TL;DR: Blissey is a wall. Chansey does its job as a wall better. If you want to attack their mons don't use your wall. Use a better pokemon that does more damage even when its attack is resisted to attack.

 

One other thing I missed Machamp on the previous post

Machamp A- ->C+

There are so many fairies and flying types running around that Machamp struggles to really do anything, as the only thing it has going for it is no guard dynamic punch, which I guess beats Clefable most of the time cuz of the RNG making me hit myself in confusion until I get KOed. 2meirl4meirl :(

[Expendable99]

Alright one more thing

 

Latios A+->S

 

I've been using choice specs Latios lately and it's pretty busted. The lack of pursuit pretty much allows you to spam your moves without any drawbacks (This is for any Latios set). The only switchins to the specs set are Chansey, Scizor, Klefki and Ferrothorn, both of which are relatively easy to deal with. Chansey is forced to softboiled every time it comes in, or else it dies to the next two psyshocks the next time it switches in, which allows you to get free turns, while the steels can be deleted with Magnezone. It's not that hard to get Latios in either due to its reasonable bulk, as you can bring it on a double, on mons that really can't do anything back to Latios, or when revenge killing a mon. Unlike the other heavy hitters on this list, Latios also has an amazing 110 speed, so it's relatively hard to revenge kill it as well without a scarfer or faster mon.

 

If you get your prediction right, Latios has no switchins, and with hazards up pretty much every time you come in something's dropping:

I don't have hp fire so I run surf, dual psychics, and draco

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 240-283 (60.9 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 357-420 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 237-279 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO This one's a bit more iffy with the KO but no Tangrowth wants to take that much damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 196-232 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 265-313 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 195-231 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 372-438 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Wash: 300-354 (98.6 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Suicune: 271-321 (67 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 373-441 (87.5 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 318-375 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO Fun Multiscale calc

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 594-698 (226.7 - 266.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO For funsies :)

 

TL;DR: Slap specs onto Latios and drop the meteor that wiped out the dinos. A+->S

[Idkup]

I agree with the vast majority of what expendable99 is saying. However, it is worth noting that poor attempts at semistall are relatively prevalent on the ladder, and that Scizor absolutely feasts on those teams. It also finds a way to make itself useful in more or less every match (unless the opponent has a defensive Volcarona, which shuts it down completely). Latios's CS set has the drawback of being a momentum drain as types are immune to both its STABs - this means it requires scouting before it can start dropping nukes, unfortunately. It's strong, but it also gives the opponent a free turn to do whatever they like afterward - never a good idea.

 

Blissey is bad and should be in the C ranks at best, as Chansey is better in every way. If you're really that worried about Gengar run Psychic on it (lmfao), but Gengar doesn't have Shadow Tag so it hardly matters.

 

Gyarados's overall utility (Intimidate = the ability to soft-check a number of physical attackers) means it continues to contribute even if it cannot sweep. Moxie Gyarados is generally subpar. Don't think it should drop.

 

Agree in principle with everything else.

[Jorogumo]

Choice Scarf Togekiss is an abomination and those who use that set should be ashamed of themselves.

[Dawtz]

To me a lot of what expendable wants to do is pretty radical, I mean I could see a lot of it making sense but why not make suggestions relative to the current list instead of trying to remake a new one. As for blissey being worst than chansey I agree it is but I dont think its like the worst thing ever and belongs in C tier, id say its one rank lower its not like you should laugh at someone for using it over chansey its a bit less risky and can kill gengar which is a nice plus. Although if you play blissey I really think it should be calm. As for Latias I dont think its so bad ive seen some people laugh at it but if latios is A+ then it should be A in my eyes, since its stats are so similar, its a waaay better defogger, has a destructive calm mind set, and its like a top 3 pokemon in the UU format on showdown too, which should be an eye opener for people underrating this pokemon. I mean things being slightly worst shouldnt make them drop all the way to the bottom of the list its not a night and day type of difference.

 

 

Theres plenty of things I disagree with on the list for sure, but I dont list them all out and try to change the whole list to be as my opinion I just choose the most critical one in my eyes. Of course everything im saying is just my opinion and I could easily be wrong. We are all just trying to improve the list but I think its best to take small steps at a time rather than 15 at a time. Since I dont want to be looked at as if im picking on expendable (we all appreciate your opinion ) Ill point out what I liked the most out of all your changes. To me you hit it right on the bulls-eye with donphan its just not any good anymore relative to all the new defoggers we got, I couldn't agree more with what you said on this pokemon.

 

Heres my suggestion:

 

Dragonite: from A to A+:

 

I think the unpredictability of his movepool should make this guy A+ having access to so much coverage moves and multi scale should make him a pokemon everyone considers to having an answer for on their team. Assuming their answer is weak to his coverage it could mean nothing as well so it can be a definitely a guessing game for the opponent.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Dawtz

[Expendable99]

I'm personally not a big fan of Dragonite, it's rather straight forward and predictable in its usage (Except for that one time Cyko brought a random banded one in a rain team). Its damage output is rather mediocre without boosts, and recent meta trends don't particularly favor it either, with new mons such as Rotom-W causing problems for it and forcing it to outrage or switch as well as the surge in rain's popularity, which contains plenty of fast mons that are able to do a number on it with draco or ice beam.

 

Dragonite is rather reliant on outrage to do a lot of significant damage to things, as it's its only strong stab move (Dragon claw is just god awful, fly is a joke without flynium z), which leaves it extremely vulnerable to being picked off by your opponent's fairy or ice type if you do manage to KO something with it.

 

For example:

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Don't use dragon claw it doesn't even hit as hard as a Lego brick

 

Bulky waters such as Slowbro are generally the best answer to Dragonite, since it is unable to ohko them at +1 and is unable to do any real damage to them without locking itself into outrage, which as I have mentioned before, leaves it rather vulnerable. Its coverage moves generally don't help it out too much, as an unresisted stab move will do around as much as a super effective thunder or fire punch (Don't run those they suck +1 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Outrage does more damage). If you're gonna use an elemental punch go for fire punch at least it hits Ferro. At the same time, Dragonite really cannot utilize its good movepool well, since espeed and your choice of dragon stab (Read: Outrage) and dragon dance leave only one additional coverage slot open. Your only real coverage moves to work with are EQ and Iron Head, and using one of them leaves you vulnerable to being walled by something else. If you run iron head you lack any move to hit steels with, while if you run EQ you lack an attack to really hit fairies such as Clefable. Even then, the coverage moves aren't really all that great, since they fail to OHKO even at +1, and your opponent can adjust once they know what your last move is.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 258-304 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 124-146 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- 75.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Ferro can be a nuisance to Dnite that lacks fire punch

 

Dragonite's better set IMO is the choice band one. However, this too does have its drawbacks, since Dragonite will probably not be able to OHKO its answers on balance, defensive, or stall teams, and your opponent can adjust accordingly. At the same time, its base 80 speed, which is alright, still leaves it prone to being outsped by faster threats which can KO or break multiscale, making it much easier to KO. The band set is also even more vulnerable to being revenged after outraging, since it doesn't even have the +1 speed to help it out.

 

Rain Dragonite's kind of meh as well, without the speed investment you're slow, and if you do put in speed investment it's going to be very hard to hit a Chansey even if it doesn't predict the superpower

252 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 460-543 (65.4 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Life Orb Dragonite Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 382-452 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (You won't be KOing with the damage dropoff)

I'm not a big fan of the usage of life orb as well, since if you run life orb you might as well not have an ability at all whatsover since you need full HP for multiscale to do anything. This makes rain Dnite super easy to revenge when put up against offensive teams, as you don't have speed nor do you have multiscale to protect yourself

Jirachi is especially troublesome to the rain Dnite, and Rotom can cause its share of problems as well, while at the same time taking advantage of hydro pump being rain boosted to do a decent amount back after pain splitting up.

 

And as always Latios deserves its spot on the top

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 318-375 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

Honestly I've really never had any problems dealing with Dnite in general, and I don't think it deserves a spot in A+. It certainly is definitely not as potent of a threat as other pokemon in the tier such as Weavile, Latios, and Tyranitar, all of which are offensive pokemon that are both much harder to switch into and have either a very good speed tier or very good bulk that makes dealing with them more difficult than dealing with Dragonite

[Qeight]

~ un-pined this due to a more up to date one being out there ~