Callmerengod

@Midnightagony The amount of nonsense you type out in those few post is astonishing, to say the least. The only reason you do not care about the new players is because you benefit of off them with your service shop. If you would've followed the thread of the screenshot you are posting you would know why I posted it the way I did. I'm still against knowing which portal you are getting/being able to change it. It's basically the only mechanic the dungeon has. I have no issues scouting for my entire guild. I'll gladly guide everyone through the Hoopa dungeon from my guild, it's literally the reason guilds are made for. If you wish to overcharge your guildmates for Hoopa dungeon service then hey, go for it. The dungeon itself is in it's core mechanic the easiest. Go in and fight pokemon. No super specific mechanics besides those which you get hinted/explained by the NPC in front of the entrance. You do not require any Megas or Z-Crystals, nor do you need any extremely good pokemon, which makes the dungeon entry level fairly low. The dungeon is easiest when running solo, which also adds to the "easy" entry level.

@Midnightagony Since you are genuinely not able to read I'll be so nice and list/explain everything to you as good as possible. I very clearly stated the Trainer Tower in my post. Afterwards most ppl commented on the change in regards to the Hoopa dungeon, so I obviously respond to their responds in regards of the dungeon. Makes sense, no? I also very clearly stated that WE (as in old players/high hour players) do not care much about the change for the Trainer Tower because we have tons of leppas, elixier etc. stacked up. However new players do not. They need to use the Nurse Joy way more often, which then snowballs into way more wasted money real quick. Especially since they are new players and need to train a lot more pokemon for different content parts of this game. Psyduck isn't much of an issue first of all. Second of all another big reason barely anyone runs Hoopa Dungeon in a group enviroment is for the fact that it's simply not worth it. You waste 1h+ for honestly speaking useless rewards. The rewards for a team run are just straight up garbage. We in Holydoof for example genuinely don't run Hoopa as a group because we don't have any reason to. We have zero issues reaching 3.1k+ in Hoopa, we just simply don't have any reason to do so since months. Also sorry to say but even 3.1k isn't an impressive score since it's possible to reach a way higher score still. The dungeon itself is really beginner friendly. In fact you don't even really need Z-Crystals. They make the run a lot easier but they are not really needed. Obviously you do need some items/decent pokemon to finish the dungeon, it still is a midgame content. You can't expect someone who just finished the story to be able to clear the dungeon. We help all the guild members if needed, I don't really understand why this would matter in any context for this thread, but hey. You still seem to fail to read and understand the actual issues of this change. We, as in Holydoof and the other already experience Hoopa runners don't have too many issues clearing the dungeon still. However now having RNG decide a lot for the possible scores. Gaining leppa berries now speeds up the clear a lot and simply adds an unhealthy mechanic to the already really low competitiveness of the dungeon. The main goal should be to push more ppl towards dungeons, not away from it. All you care for is your own and your dungeon service. You genuinely do not care a single bit about the new player experience, this is the main issue. Every single dungeon has quite a few issues and bugs still. As I mentioned in an earlier post I still do wanna make a thread about dungeons itself. However this thread is supposed to mostly center around the HM change. If you found a bug simply report it on discord or the forums and they will look in to it.

@Flexforlife I agree. I tried to keep this thread to the HM change specifically mostly, since I think dungeons in general need a lot of work still. There are a lot of issues within those, not just the Hoopa dungeon. While I know very well that speedruns often favor in a lot of RNG you usually have unlimited tries for said speedruns. However dungeons work differently. It's not just who finishes the dungeon first, a lot of other factors go in to said scores as well. I've also been annoyed about no Uproar Tutor for a long time now xD I do wanna make another thread entirely for dungeon changes itself, since there are a lot of ideas I and other people do have for said content. @Midnightagony I'm still surprised people do not see the issue. It's not just about the dungeon, it's about the Trainer Tower as well, for example. Yes, we also do have teams which can clear the dungeon without issues, be it solo portals, be it duo portals, be it group runs. However this isn't the main issue. The pkmn you could use for the dungeon were already within a fairly small pool. With the HM nerf this variety pool now got even smaller and makes it even more frustrating for newer players. This change punishes newer players a lot more than us who are already able to clear the dungeon without issues. 3.1k isn't much about braggin honestly, since it's far from the highest possible score. It simply is the highest held score as of right now. Hoopa dungeon already had a really low playerbase/comeptitive side to it and with the current change it diminished even more. But this is also due to other issues about the dungeon itself. Edit: Shocker, that the ppl who sell Hoopa dungeon service are the ones who don't care about the new player experience at all.

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Since this thread is slowly going in the entirely wrong path so far I'll respond one last time to you @Mingrenpro and then let you be. I said multiple times now that we can adapt/clear the dungeon. Our current 1.9k run is a random solo portal run. You are saying you cleared every single entrance you finished this month with 2.2k minimum yet I don't see Ascension on the Leaderboard for this month. Also, sorry to say but 2.2k really isn't a lot for a duo portal run. I'm not even sure why you are trying to make it a measure contest but so far the highest Hoopa scores recorded have been set by Revenant & Holydoof, group and solo runs. You are still missing the entire reason of this thread and only make it about yourself. You enjoy it because it benefits you, not because it's healthy for the game. If you would've actually read my thread carefully then you would know that I suggested ways of fixing the infinite PP while not making it beyond useless like it is right now. The exact same goes for the Trainer Tower. I personally couldn't care less about the PP change, I got 999 Leppa & Sitrus Berries on all 3 of my accounts, the change doesn't affect me personally. However I try to think about the entire game, about the new players and not just about me. Since you want the measure contest right here, as someone who set the (as of right now) second highest Hoopa group run score right behind Revenant & the second highest solo run score right behind Pinklax I can tell you this change is not healthy for the content, especially for newer players. As a main runner for the current leading dungeon guild and part of the top scores for Hoopa I am not enjoying running Hoopa dungeon at all in it's current state. I want competition for the dungeons. It's boring if there is no competition.

I'm sorry @Mingrenpro but you genuinely do not seem to understand the issue at all. First of all I do not see Ascension on the Gold Leaderboard for Hoopa Dungeon. Second, the fact you base the argument on "Why need group run when you can beat everyone with solo run" just speaks for itself. Yes you can also set a solo score in lavender, however you won't ever beat an actual score run from a 4-5man group run. (Also ignoring stuff in the treasure room doesn't change much about the results) You are entirely missing the point of the thread so far. Yes we can beat the dungeon right now, be it solo or duo portals. Yes we can cheese fights, yes we do have ways to clear it without leppas/treasure room. However the moment you do get a leppa berry/max elixier etc. it makes the run A LOT faster & makes other ppl not able to compete unless they hit the same RNG. However we've run the dungeon hundreds of times, we know exactly how to cheese fights. New players won't be able to at all without a reliable Pokemon like Gyarados. This dungeon is also designed to be a group dungeon, however in it's current state it's not clearable unless you hit really good RNG. This all in all simply is not healthy for the content or for the competitive site of it.

I'm not entirely sure in which context your comment is meant but 2.2k isn't a lot, ye. It's just been 5days since the new season began in fairness but the competition looks dire. To be fair this is a massive issue for all dungeons but that's for another topic. Like I mentioned you can easily clear duo portal right now IF you get the correct portals or get very lucky and get any leppa berries. I watched someone run the dungeon just 2 days ago and he had not a single graveler/golem fight, making it impossible for him to even get leppa berries. I could also build an entire team just for the Water Portal and reset twice daily until I hit this specific portal to clear/set a score. However that's not how it should work. Other dungeons had this competition issue as well but it was insanely rare and mostly due to the server lags. Lavender is the best example: If the Slowbro boss respawns after defeating it - you lose 1000 points because it somehow counts as a lose/surrender. If you need to fight the Sceptile boss twice you gain ~100+ extra points, making it impossible for other guilds to compete.

In the latest update there was a change that when you teach a pokemon any HM it will no longer have full PP but will now have 0 PP on said move. This specific mechanic was a core mechanic for the Hoopa Dungeon and the Trainer Tower. Outside of those 2 content parts it was basically not used at all. The big issue is, that both those content parts were balanced around this said mechanic. Unfortunately this change also wasn't mentioned in the Update Logs, making player fail dungeon runs due to them not being aware. Before I explain the suggestion/s I have I'll first explain why this mechanic is needed in the current state of those 2 content parts. Long explanation: I'll start with Hoopa Dungeon, since I feel this specific content suffers the most from this change. Hoopa Dungeon: When building a team for this specific dungeon you need to find a team of 4 pokemon that can clear all of the 4 possible portals. The issue is that you do not know which portal you will get unless you enter the dungeon. And even then you do not know which exact fights you'll get inside of said portal. This overall makes the option for viable pokemon to bring already VERY low. Gyarados was one of the core parts of every team, since it was able to deal with sturdy pokemon, it had good options to set-up due to Moxie, had other reliable moves such as Rain Dance and Bite and you were able to constantly refresh the Waterfall PP due to the old HM mechanic. We (as in some of my guild mates, some friends outside of the guild and myself) did quite a few test runs after the latest change and tried to find new teams which consistently are able to clear all 4 portals. Unfortunately there isn't one. Yes we figured out teams to somewhat consistently clear 2-3 portals, if you hit the wrong portal it's an instant surrender. The main issue is that we are experienced in this dungeon since we ran this dungeon a lot of times and know exactly how to cheese certain fights. Any new player who will try to start getting in to this dungeon won't be able to at all. This entire part is just for a solo/duo portal run. For team runs (2+ portals) this HM change gets even worse. Another big issue of the dungeon is when you evolve a pokemon it automatically loses HP due to it's base HP increasing. This usually isn't a big deal outside of the dungeon but inside of the Hoopa dungeon it is quite annoying. Not being able to learn a move when the pokemon evolves on the correct level is also a really annoying issue within the dungeon. A random example: You would evolve Drilbur on level46 to Excadril. Once evolved it will not try to learn "Drill Run". This issue rarely occurs but when it happens it's really problematic since you are not able to relearn moves. The dungeon itself relies quite a bit on RNG. However you were able to reduce the RNG to an barely important part of the run before the change. Now the dungeon is pure RNG. This dungeon had barely any competitive side to it before and now it's basically gone entirely. In it's current state you enter the dungeon, pray you get the 2 best portals and hope you do not get any sturdy fights within your portal. This simply doesn't sound fun or healthy for any good competition. Ultimately there simply is no good replacement for Gyarados in the current state of the dungeon and it's a massive issue for the balancing of it. Now here are some ideas we already had about fixing the HM issue/the dungeon itself: - a guaranteed Lum, Sitrus & Leppa Berry drop within the dungeon (could even be an augment) - way higher drop rate of Leppa Berry - (team run specific) only needing to clear 1 portal when running as a team The issue in regards to those is that those wouldn't fix the actual HM issue. There is a little bit more to explain in regards to the dungeon but I'll keep it there for now. Trainer Tower: The Trainer Tower itself has a lot of issues in it's design. I made a post about this a long time ago already. The most used strat for the Trainer Tower was to get a lvl39/69 Gyarados with Moxie lended to you and sweep with said Pokemon. It was able to deal with nearly all trainers due to it's moveset, was in comparison very easy to obtain and didn't require a lot to be useable, making it also very easy for new players. One of the main core parts was the fact that you could refill the Waterfall PP by overwriting Waterfall with another HM (Surf, Dive) and then reteach Waterfall again. This entire mechanic is now gone. You will constantly need to talk to Nurse Joy to refill the Waterfall PP, making you lose 1.5k every single time just to refill PP. This isn't as much of a problem on the lower floors, since those trainers only have 3 pokemon. However once you reach higher floors the trainers start to have 4-6 Pokemon, making you lose Waterfall PP really fast, depending on the trainer type you are facing. Yes, for us old players it doesn't matter as much since we hoarded a lot of Leppa Berries, Ether etc. but for new players this is simply not possible. Having to use the Nurse Joy quite often just for a single run will drain the money of new players incredibly fast. Suggestions: First of all, I do understand that this mechanic was very likely not inteded and goes against the idea of consumable TMs etc. However how it was made with the recent change it's not healthy for the game or said content at all and either needs a full revert, at the bare minimum an adjustment or said content needs to be totally revamped/rebalanced. - when a Pokemon has only 3 moves and you teach a HM move it still obtains the full PP of said move - when you overwrite a non-HM move with a HM move you still obtain the full PP of said HM move - when you overwrite a HM move with another HM move all the PP get fully depleted - (Trainer Tower specific) just remove the cost of Nurse Joy within the floors I'm happy to hear other ideas from other players and happy to discuss other options. However there needs to be a change because this change is not healthy for the 2 specific content parts it is aimed at. Thanks a lot for reading.