PRO Viability Rankings (PVP)

[Thepokemaestro]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r>As a player who wants to start PvP this has really helped me <E>:thanks:</E></r>

[Tr3y]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="ThePokeMaestro"><s>

</s><POST content="307826"><s></s>307826<e></e></POST> As a player who wants to start PvP this has really helped me <E>:thanks:</E><e>

</e></QUOTE>

I'm glad this helps man. <E>:Cool:</E> If you have any questions don't be afraid to ask.</r>

[Teemoking]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<t>mach punch, aqua jet, earthquake, surf ohko excadrill easily<br/>

<br/>

and if excadrill is not in sand storm, it's kinda useless<br/>

<br/>

adamant one with 275 speed max<br/>

<br/>

how can it be compared to garchomp ==?<br/>

<br/>

and for talonflame, it surely deserves in S rank<br/>

<br/>

super strong late game sweeper and deal with incoming offensive threat easily if they are not in 70~80% Hp or above<br/>

<br/>

brave bird/flare blitz + sharp beak + priority one shot most of offensive pokemons <br/>

<br/>

no to mention after one sword dance, it can fuck slowbro up in two shots<br/>

<br/>

and don't forget it can't be burnt and even it got paralized, it still have priority</t>

[Idkup]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="TR3Y"><s>

</s><POST content="307813"><s></s>307813<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="307691"><s></s>307691<e></e></POST> Stuff Garchomp's speed tier lets it revenge or sweep past in OU that don't exist here, when compared to other Dragon options such as Salamence or Dragonite: Charizard-Mega X, Charizard-Mega Y, Diancie (pre-Mega), Gardevoir-Mega, Kyurem-Black, Landorus-Therian, Medicham-Mega, Zapdos.<br/>

<br/>

(I haven't taken into account any of the vast array of UU and below threats which are viable in OU.)<br/>

<br/>

Here, base 102 is less important, as evidenced by the lack of the threats above. I am not arguing that Garchomp is not an excellent Pokemon in this metagame. I am arguing that it does not define the metagame, and is not above other offensive titans such as Gengar, Dragonite, and Excadrill. No one doubts Garchomp's damage output with Swords Dance. The problem lies in the fact that he is easily revenge-killed due to his lack of priority.<br/>

<br/>

Gengar's Shadow Ball hits 0/0 Garchomp for around half. Starmie's Ice Beam is a clean OHKO. Weavile's Ice Punch is a clean OHKO. Talonflame's Sharp Beak Brave Bird hits for about half. Combined with the near-impossibility of setting up Swords Dance safely against Balance/Bulky Offense/Hyper Offense, this essentially restricts Garchomp to one kill a game at best, and dead weight at worst. Furthermore, as you yourself mentioned, stall has Skarmory.<br/>

<br/>

I believe the main difference between our points of view is that you consider the Swords Dance boost a given, whereas I do not. Due to its predictability, Garchomp's Swords Dance is relatively easy to stop. For example, if you switch in on something normally safe such as Magnezone's Thunderbolt and attempt to set up on the switch, you could easily lose half your health to Flash Cannon instead, making you an easy revenge kill. Simply put, Garchomp has issues setting up without taking major damage, which due to its lack of a recovery option is a major issue.<br/>

(As for the Ice and Fairy types, I was more referring to them preventing you from setting up)<br/>

<br/>

As for Talonflame, it requires quite a bit of team support to work effectively, which IMO is what keeps it out of S. However, Stealth Rock is quite difficult to remove against a good team, between HM-Defog not existing, Rapid Spin being blockable by Ghost-types, as well as the loss of momentum incurred by spending a turn to Defog/Spin, which is especially dangerous against those offensive teams that a full-health Talonflame can devastate.<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 118-139 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 120-144 (40.4 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 71-84 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 93% chance to 4HKO<br/>

<br/>

These make it difficult for Talonflame to switch in on any of the Pokemon you mentioned - even Scizor 2HKO's Talonflame after Stealth Rock.<br/>

<br/>

I agree, the Taunt/Acrobatics/Roost/Will-o-Wisp set with defensive investment is a potent threat. But is it really S-Rank?<br/>

<br/>

Point taken on Hydreigon. I'm not very experienced with it and assumed that much of its viability came from a powerful Draco Meteor.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

First of all you calculated the damage on a Talonflame with no HP or Defensive investment so allow to me provide the correct calculations:<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 80-94 (22.2 - 26.1%) -- 9.5% chance to 4HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 144-170 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 84-98 (23.3 - 27.2%) -- approx. 59% chance to 4HKO (Not to mention most Mamoswine in the game are Jolly)<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 32-38 (8.9 - 10.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever<br/>

<br/>

0 Atk burned Hippowdon Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 106-126 (29.5 - 35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage<br/>

<br/>

And like you said for Talonflame, Dragonite is greatly hindered by stealth rock due to it's heavy reliance on its ability, Multiscale. Without Multiscale intact, Dragonite struggles to set up on many mons in the metagame. Its speed is an average base 80 and given the amount of Tyranitar / Hippowdon + Excadrill running around I don't see Dragonite deserving its place as an S rank pokemon. Sure you can pair a Defogger or Rapid spinner with Dragonite but that doesn't solve the problem of loosing its multicale to sand. And out of all of the pokemon in the entire game you only mentioned 4 pokemon that can easily revenge kill Garchomp (2 of which can only do half). And I try not to compare PRO to other metagames because they are entirely different. Just because a pokemon's capabilities on another game are not present in the current game doesn't make it bad. When coming up with viability rankings you have to ignore all other games and/or rankings and focus only on the game the pokemon is being ranked in. No pokemon defines the metagame in PRO but some do stand out and prove to be more influential than others. <br/>

<br/>

I understand what you are saying about Excadrill but I feel as though it is not an S rank pokemon. It relies heavily on the Sand and is EASILY revenge killed without it. Even in the sand pokemon such as Breloom, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and Conkeldurr can pick Excadrill off with their respective priority moves. Its bulk is below par unlike Garchomp and relies on Earthquake as its strongest STAB move unlike Garchomp's Outrage and ability to carry Iron Head and Rock Slide just like Excadrill. Excadrill is walled by Hippowdon and is denied the ability to set up a Swords Dance on it due to its crippling weakness to the omnipresent Earthquake. Its Defensive and Choice Scarf sets shouldn't even be mentioned because its ability Mold Breaker is not working and there is no Choice Scarf. It is heavily walled by Skarmory and doesn't have any options of dealing with it unlike Garchomp's Fire Fang, Flamethrower, and Fire Blast.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

I'll make this brief. It's not that Dnite should rise. It's that Garchomp should drop. Dnite can at least deal with faster stuff and random priority like Tflame's Brave Bird and Mamoswine's Ice Shard which rk Garchomp easily. If Dnite, which has a much easier time with Stealth Rock (it isn't insta killed by two switch ins) isn't as useful as Tflame because SR breaks Multiscale, that's exactly why Tflame should drop lol. Exca by no means relies on sand because it's defensive typing allows it to clean up slower teams without Sand Rush, as well as provide Rapid Spin support. Breloom, Azumarill, and Crawdaunt also pick off weakened Garchomp easily, and unlike against Excadrill, Azumarill can switch in for free against a predicted Dragon Claw / locked Outrage. It does nothing to Skarm but Skarm also does nothing to it because any hazards it tries to set get spun away, and Rock Slide chip damage will get to it because it can't Roost on Excadrill for fear of Earthquake. Excadrill also just outspeeds the mess of Pokemon lingering around 80 speed with a Jolly nature, which is to say, everything relevant Garchomp outspeeds except Garchomp itself, Salamence, Manectric, and um... 0 investment Talonflame?<br/>

<br/>

With regard to tflame: How the hell are you gonna set up Swords Dance on one of the frailest Pokemon in the game against offense no less?</r>

[Guest shewas15]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="307974"><s></s>307974<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="TR3Y"><s>

</s><POST content="307813"><s></s>307813<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="307691"><s></s>307691<e></e></POST> Stuff Garchomp's speed tier lets it revenge or sweep past in OU that don't exist here, when compared to other Dragon options such as Salamence or Dragonite: Charizard-Mega X, Charizard-Mega Y, Diancie (pre-Mega), Gardevoir-Mega, Kyurem-Black, Landorus-Therian, Medicham-Mega, Zapdos.<br/>

<br/>

(I haven't taken into account any of the vast array of UU and below threats which are viable in OU.)<br/>

<br/>

Here, base 102 is less important, as evidenced by the lack of the threats above. I am not arguing that Garchomp is not an excellent Pokemon in this metagame. I am arguing that it does not define the metagame, and is not above other offensive titans such as Gengar, Dragonite, and Excadrill. No one doubts Garchomp's damage output with Swords Dance. The problem lies in the fact that he is easily revenge-killed due to his lack of priority.<br/>

<br/>

Gengar's Shadow Ball hits 0/0 Garchomp for around half. Starmie's Ice Beam is a clean OHKO. Weavile's Ice Punch is a clean OHKO. Talonflame's Sharp Beak Brave Bird hits for about half. Combined with the near-impossibility of setting up Swords Dance safely against Balance/Bulky Offense/Hyper Offense, this essentially restricts Garchomp to one kill a game at best, and dead weight at worst. Furthermore, as you yourself mentioned, stall has Skarmory.<br/>

<br/>

I believe the main difference between our points of view is that you consider the Swords Dance boost a given, whereas I do not. Due to its predictability, Garchomp's Swords Dance is relatively easy to stop. For example, if you switch in on something normally safe such as Magnezone's Thunderbolt and attempt to set up on the switch, you could easily lose half your health to Flash Cannon instead, making you an easy revenge kill. Simply put, Garchomp has issues setting up without taking major damage, which due to its lack of a recovery option is a major issue.<br/>

(As for the Ice and Fairy types, I was more referring to them preventing you from setting up)<br/>

<br/>

As for Talonflame, it requires quite a bit of team support to work effectively, which IMO is what keeps it out of S. However, Stealth Rock is quite difficult to remove against a good team, between HM-Defog not existing, Rapid Spin being blockable by Ghost-types, as well as the loss of momentum incurred by spending a turn to Defog/Spin, which is especially dangerous against those offensive teams that a full-health Talonflame can devastate.<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 118-139 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 120-144 (40.4 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 71-84 (23.9 - 28.2%) -- 93% chance to 4HKO<br/>

<br/>

These make it difficult for Talonflame to switch in on any of the Pokemon you mentioned - even Scizor 2HKO's Talonflame after Stealth Rock.<br/>

<br/>

I agree, the Taunt/Acrobatics/Roost/Will-o-Wisp set with defensive investment is a potent threat. But is it really S-Rank?<br/>

<br/>

Point taken on Hydreigon. I'm not very experienced with it and assumed that much of its viability came from a powerful Draco Meteor.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

First of all you calculated the damage on a Talonflame with no HP or Defensive investment so allow to me provide the correct calculations:<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 80-94 (22.2 - 26.1%) -- 9.5% chance to 4HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 144-170 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 84-98 (23.3 - 27.2%) -- approx. 59% chance to 4HKO (Not to mention most Mamoswine in the game are Jolly)<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 32-38 (8.9 - 10.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever<br/>

<br/>

0 Atk burned Hippowdon Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 106-126 (29.5 - 35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage<br/>

<br/>

And like you said for Talonflame, Dragonite is greatly hindered by stealth rock due to it's heavy reliance on its ability, Multiscale. Without Multiscale intact, Dragonite struggles to set up on many mons in the metagame. Its speed is an average base 80 and given the amount of Tyranitar / Hippowdon + Excadrill running around I don't see Dragonite deserving its place as an S rank pokemon. Sure you can pair a Defogger or Rapid spinner with Dragonite but that doesn't solve the problem of loosing its multicale to sand. And out of all of the pokemon in the entire game you only mentioned 4 pokemon that can easily revenge kill Garchomp (2 of which can only do half). And I try not to compare PRO to other metagames because they are entirely different. Just because a pokemon's capabilities on another game are not present in the current game doesn't make it bad. When coming up with viability rankings you have to ignore all other games and/or rankings and focus only on the game the pokemon is being ranked in. No pokemon defines the metagame in PRO but some do stand out and prove to be more influential than others. <br/>

<br/>

I understand what you are saying about Excadrill but I feel as though it is not an S rank pokemon. It relies heavily on the Sand and is EASILY revenge killed without it. Even in the sand pokemon such as Breloom, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and Conkeldurr can pick Excadrill off with their respective priority moves. Its bulk is below par unlike Garchomp and relies on Earthquake as its strongest STAB move unlike Garchomp's Outrage and ability to carry Iron Head and Rock Slide just like Excadrill. Excadrill is walled by Hippowdon and is denied the ability to set up a Swords Dance on it due to its crippling weakness to the omnipresent Earthquake. Its Defensive and Choice Scarf sets shouldn't even be mentioned because its ability Mold Breaker is not working and there is no Choice Scarf. It is heavily walled by Skarmory and doesn't have any options of dealing with it unlike Garchomp's Fire Fang, Flamethrower, and Fire Blast.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

I'll make this brief. It's not that Dnite should rise. It's that Garchomp should drop. Dnite can at least deal with faster stuff and random priority like Tflame's Brave Bird and Mamoswine's Ice Shard which rk Garchomp easily. If Dnite, which has a much easier time with Stealth Rock (it isn't insta killed by two switch ins) isn't as useful as Tflame because SR breaks Multiscale, that's exactly why Tflame should drop lol. Exca by no means relies on sand because it's defensive typing allows it to clean up slower teams without Sand Rush, as well as provide Rapid Spin support. Breloom, Azumarill, and Crawdaunt also pick off weakened Garchomp easily, and unlike against Excadrill, Azumarill can switch in for free against a predicted Dragon Claw / locked Outrage. It does nothing to Skarm but Skarm also does nothing to it because any hazards it tries to set get spun away, and Rock Slide chip damage will get to it because it can't Roost on Excadrill for fear of Earthquake. Excadrill also just outspeeds the mess of Pokemon lingering around 80 speed with a Jolly nature, which is to say, everything relevant Garchomp outspeeds except Garchomp itself, Salamence, Manectric, and um... 0 investment Talonflame?<br/>

<br/>

With regard to tflame: How the hell are you gonna set up Swords Dance on one of the frailest Pokemon in the game against offense no less?<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Lol .</r>

[Idkup]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="shewas15"><s>

</s><POST content="308065"><s></s>308065<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="idkup"><s>

</s><POST content="307974"><s></s>307974<e></e></POST> <QUOTE author="TR3Y"><s>

</s><POST content="307813"><s></s>307813<e></e></POST> <br/>

<br/>

First of all you calculated the damage on a Talonflame with no HP or Defensive investment so allow to me provide the correct calculations:<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 80-94 (22.2 - 26.1%) -- 9.5% chance to 4HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 144-170 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 84-98 (23.3 - 27.2%) -- approx. 59% chance to 4HKO (Not to mention most Mamoswine in the game are Jolly)<br/>

<br/>

252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 32-38 (8.9 - 10.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever<br/>

<br/>

0 Atk burned Hippowdon Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 106-126 (29.5 - 35%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage<br/>

<br/>

And like you said for Talonflame, Dragonite is greatly hindered by stealth rock due to it's heavy reliance on its ability, Multiscale. Without Multiscale intact, Dragonite struggles to set up on many mons in the metagame. Its speed is an average base 80 and given the amount of Tyranitar / Hippowdon + Excadrill running around I don't see Dragonite deserving its place as an S rank pokemon. Sure you can pair a Defogger or Rapid spinner with Dragonite but that doesn't solve the problem of loosing its multicale to sand. And out of all of the pokemon in the entire game you only mentioned 4 pokemon that can easily revenge kill Garchomp (2 of which can only do half). And I try not to compare PRO to other metagames because they are entirely different. Just because a pokemon's capabilities on another game are not present in the current game doesn't make it bad. When coming up with viability rankings you have to ignore all other games and/or rankings and focus only on the game the pokemon is being ranked in. No pokemon defines the metagame in PRO but some do stand out and prove to be more influential than others. <br/>

<br/>

I understand what you are saying about Excadrill but I feel as though it is not an S rank pokemon. It relies heavily on the Sand and is EASILY revenge killed without it. Even in the sand pokemon such as Breloom, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and Conkeldurr can pick Excadrill off with their respective priority moves. Its bulk is below par unlike Garchomp and relies on Earthquake as its strongest STAB move unlike Garchomp's Outrage and ability to carry Iron Head and Rock Slide just like Excadrill. Excadrill is walled by Hippowdon and is denied the ability to set up a Swords Dance on it due to its crippling weakness to the omnipresent Earthquake. Its Defensive and Choice Scarf sets shouldn't even be mentioned because its ability Mold Breaker is not working and there is no Choice Scarf. It is heavily walled by Skarmory and doesn't have any options of dealing with it unlike Garchomp's Fire Fang, Flamethrower, and Fire Blast.<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

I'll make this brief. It's not that Dnite should rise. It's that Garchomp should drop. Dnite can at least deal with faster stuff and random priority like Tflame's Brave Bird and Mamoswine's Ice Shard which rk Garchomp easily. If Dnite, which has a much easier time with Stealth Rock (it isn't insta killed by two switch ins) isn't as useful as Tflame because SR breaks Multiscale, that's exactly why Tflame should drop lol. Exca by no means relies on sand because it's defensive typing allows it to clean up slower teams without Sand Rush, as well as provide Rapid Spin support. Breloom, Azumarill, and Crawdaunt also pick off weakened Garchomp easily, and unlike against Excadrill, Azumarill can switch in for free against a predicted Dragon Claw / locked Outrage. It does nothing to Skarm but Skarm also does nothing to it because any hazards it tries to set get spun away, and Rock Slide chip damage will get to it because it can't Roost on Excadrill for fear of Earthquake. Excadrill also just outspeeds the mess of Pokemon lingering around 80 speed with a Jolly nature, which is to say, everything relevant Garchomp outspeeds except Garchomp itself, Salamence, Manectric, and um... 0 investment Talonflame?<br/>

<br/>

With regard to tflame: How the hell are you gonna set up Swords Dance on one of the frailest Pokemon in the game against offense no less?<e>

</e></QUOTE>

Lol .<e>

</e></QUOTE>

 

Glad you liked my post, even if you didn't read it.</r>

[Guest shewas15]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<t>Tbh , i did , and what poped up in my head was just Lol .</t>

[Alaris]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<r><QUOTE author="shewas15"><s>

</s><POST content="308421"><s></s>308421<e></e></POST> Tbh , i did , and what poped up in my head was just Lol .<e>

</e></QUOTE>

everyone is allowed there opinion, I think he just wanted some constructive feedback on why you disagree. Which would be best, since u regularly place high on the ladder.</r>

[Sangkujung]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.7

 

<t>Made some adjustments with Tyranitar, Tangrowth, Staraptor, and Garchomp.</t>

[Duynghia101]

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.95.8

 

<t>Crawdaunt must in S rank. Its a monster after 1 dragone dance</t>