PRO Viability Rankings (PVP)

Arlington · June 30, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.97_2

</s>
Pokémon can go up and down in the list without necessarily taking another Pokémon's spot. Also, Poliwrath is in A-, which is the same tier as Breloom. 
 
First of all, Breloom doesn't OHKO Floatzel or even Omastar with Mach Punch (who uses Floatzel anyway?). Here are some calculations: 
Breloom vs Omastar: 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) 
Breloom vs Floatzel: 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 226-266 (72.6 - 85.5%) 
 
No one is going to allow Breloom to Mach Punch when it's obvious that it'll result in a kill. Breloom's spore can be stopped by Tangrowth (which is on many sand teams), Amoonguss, Venusaur, which can all hurt him back with HP Fire, while Breloom won't be able to deal any significant damage to them. In Tangrowth's case, Regenerator invalidates any kind of damage even more, especially when running a fully physically defensive set. Assuming an Adamant nature, Breloom also only does about 55% damage to Kingdra with Mach Punch. The omnipresent Clefable, even with a Calm nature, survives a Bullet Seed and comfortably OHKOs Breloom back. On top of this, Breloom loses to a lot of top threats, mostly Talonflame, Gengar (free switch in on a predicted Mach Punch and easy OHKO with Sludge Wave), Togekiss, Volcarona (with Flame Body threatening to burn Breloom on a Mach Punch and Lum Berry to cure Spore and put the opponent in a bad situation, not knowing whether Volcarona will Quiver Dance or kill Breloom to avoid another Spore), etc. You also didn't mention Breloom's abysmal speed tier. The priority move argument doesn't hold, when a lot of Pokémon can easily take a Mach Punch or are immune to it, while being faster and able to OHKO Breloom back. Breloom's STAB combination fails to threaten flying-type, poison-type, and bug-type Pokémon. It is unable to break past a lot of Pokémon that are in the same tier: defensive Arcanine with Initimidate, Donphan, Weezing, Roserade, and Venusaur (the latter two can't even be put to sleep). Even Alakazam (which was B+ and is now A) can shrug off Mach Punch and OHKO Breloom back. Breloom can take residual damage from Life Orb, as well as chip damage from Rough Skin and Iron Barbs. 
 
I'd like to compare Breloom to another Pokémon in A with the same base attack (130) and the same ability (Technician): Scizor. Scizor's typing is, defensively, a lot better than Breloom's. Scizor has more versatility, as it can choose between a Choice Band set and a SD+Roost set, as well as an offensive set, a bulkier set, and a defensive set with Defog. Toxic Heal+Toxic Orb sets are nowhere to be seen (no Substitute) and Focus Sash sets are uncommon (lead Breloom?), so it will almost always run Life Orb, Spore, Swords Dance, Mach Punch, and Bullet Seed. Yes, Breloom can forego a move and run a rock-type coverage, but that requires prediction, which is made harder by the absence of team preview. I see here a lack of versatility in Breloom's case, as opposed to Scizor. Both Pokémon have a poor STAB combination, completely walled by certain types or dual types (which is why they are not ranked higher). While Scizor can be trapped by Magnezone and easily removed from the game, it can just pivot in and out, in order to scout for the enemy team's Pokémon (and a potential Magnezone) with U-turn. With enough investment in HP and Sp. Def., Scizor will always survive HP fire from Choice Scarf Timid Magnezone and use either U-turn or Superpower. Scizor can resist a lot of hits, on top of being able to use Roost and Swords Dance more reliably, while Breloom's only perk over Scizor (Spore) is, in my opinion, not enough to warrant a rise to the same tier as Scizor.
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dude you didn't read , i said after 1 boost life orb

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 421-499 (149.8 - 177.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 1824-2151 (698.8 - 824.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 266-316 (88.3 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 341-403 (113.2 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and here the exca tyrant combo without boost

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 385-455 (106.6 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Tyranitar: 395-473 (98 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

and here some bulky water type :

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 615-732 (152.2 - 181.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 399-477 (101.2 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 327-399 (82.9 - 101.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO

and here azumarill , bisharp , gliscor , magnezone

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 244 HP / 8+ Def Gliscor: 354-420 (100.5 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 515-608 (190 - 224.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 570-678 (148.4 - 176.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 452-533 (160.8 - 189.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

my point is not that these pokemon will stay in and take a hit , i'm trying to tell how good it is if it has a chance which not many poke can do , and what makes this thing has more chance than other set up sweeper is that it has access to spore , which is 100% acc and unless you're grass , overcoat or something you don't want to sleep on this breloom . Like blaziken is overrated , he's hard to play around , need to build a whole team around him , then poliwarth , the only thing it's good in this tier is phazing , which is may become a set up bait if you're unlucky , and i'm not talking about odds here , spore is 100% .

Scizor isn't that good anymore since there're a lot of magnezone , about breloom , the only thing that can trap breloom is dugtrio which dies to bullet seed and can't do anythign back to breloom . I'm not just talking about the overall game , i'm talking about PRO's meta ... not showdown , not original game . I've been writting down my matches and 80% of them are either rain or sand , and having a breloom as a slot in your team isn't that bad . That's why i don't uderstand why it's below a freakin phazer poliwarth . He can either support your team by making something to sleep , or switch in and revenge kill exca bisharp etc if you someway let them boost their stats . Stuff like that .

Your venusaur , tangrowth , amoongus hp fire examples are not necessary true since this is PRO , the chance that you found a h.a h.p fire is extremly low , or average but trash ivs . Clefable is slower and is guaranteed to be put to sleep and if it dares to stay in breloom ohko it after 1 boost +2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 414-492 (105 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO , then yet again not like everyone own a volcarona for themselves . Gengar , togekiss , weezing and stuff like that is a part of the game , that's why i said IF YOU PLAY AROUND IT , and you can switch , not like scizor 252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 316-376 (91.8 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO , not to mention that ppl actually prefer modest magnezone , and if scizor run superpower it lack of roost or sword dance . Talonflame , i'm pretty sure you understand that it's everywhere already , so you better have 1 check for it .

Once again i'm not saying that breloom is WAY TO OP , but i'm saying that it deserve a better tier , not behind a poliwarth , that's not right .</r>

Mecta · June 30, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.97_2

Jorogumo · June 30, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.97_2

</s>just to mention how dangerous this thing is ' date=' it sweep almost the entire rain (except dragonite )<s>[b']</s><COLOR color="#FF0000"><s></s>as mach punch kills<e></e></COLOR><e>[/b]</e> omastar , kabutops , floatzel .... and the most powerful sand combo tyrant + exca <s></s><COLOR color="#FF0000"><s></s>with mach punch after 1 boost + life orb<e></e></COLOR><e></e><e>

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Yes, I read it all. Why "..."? It made it seem like you were separating the rain sweepers from the other part of the sentence. You said that Mach Punch kills Omastar, Kabutops, and Floatzel (OHKO is implied), then you said "Mach Punch after 1 boost+Life Orb". If the last part was also referring to the 3 rain sweepers aforementioned, you wouldn't mention Mach Punch twice, with a clear distinction between the first part (Mach Punch OHKOs) and the second (Mach Punch after using Swords Dance). So, before accusing someone of not reading your post correctly, proofread it first.

Also, Breloom doesn't need to Swords Dance to kill Tyranitar and Excadrill. Not even fully physically defensive Tyranitar is guaranteed to resist a Mach Punch:

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 380-452 (94 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Therefore, the second part of what I quoted should forego the mention of any boost, and the first one should read that Breloom needs to Swords Dance once to OHKO Omastar and Floatzel (not needed for Kabutops, unless Breloom's nature is jolly, in which case the OHKO is no longer certain).</r>

Arlington · June 30, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.97_2

</s>
<QUOTE author="arlington" post_id="404165" time="1498841863" user_id="619377"><s>
</s>just to mention how dangerous this thing is ' date=' it sweep almost the entire rain (except dragonite )<s>[b']</s><COLOR color="#FF0000"><s></s>as mach punch kills<e></e></COLOR><e>[/b]</e> omastar , kabutops , floatzel .... and the most powerful sand combo tyrant + exca <s></s><COLOR color="#FF0000"><s></s>with mach punch after 1 boost + life orb<e></e></COLOR><e></e><e>
</e></QUOTE>

Yes, I read it all. Why "..."? It made it seem like you were separating the rain sweepers from the other part of the sentence. You said that Mach Punch kills Omastar, Kabutops, and Floatzel (OHKO is implied), then you said "Mach Punch after 1 boost+Life Orb". If the last part was also referring to the 3 rain sweepers aforementioned, you wouldn't mention Mach Punch twice, with a clear distinction between the first part (Mach Punch OHKOs) and the second (Mach Punch after using Swords Dance). So, before accusing someone of not reading your post correctly, proofread it first. 
 
Also, Breloom doesn't need to Swords Dance to kill Tyranitar and Excadrill. Not even fully physically defensive Tyranitar is guaranteed to resist a Mach Punch: 
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tyranitar: 380-452 (94 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO 
 
Therefore, the second part of what I quoted should forego the mention of any boost, and the first one should read that Breloom needs to Swords Dance once to OHKO Omastar and Floatzel (not needed for Kabutops, unless Breloom's nature is jolly, in which case the OHKO is no longer certain).
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"...." because some ppl run weird stuff with s.s ability , yeah sorry it's 5 A.M here and i've not slept typing with you . What i want to say is breloom ohko exca + tyrant combo without any boost and those rain sweeper in the rain with mach punch boosted life orb , i just want to combine it into 1 sentence but well , now you point it out i can see my writing skill sucks . Anw it's my thoughts , not necessary 100% right , let ppl try it , and see it for themselves , it's not like Tr3y is going to fix the tier tho xD . I just get swept by this breloom and choice band dragonite but i want to talk about breloom first since i've used it for a while , i'll make another post about dragonite and hope i can find something to stop it in bad situations .</r>

Jorogumo · June 30, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.97_2

<r>Don't worry about it. I knew there was some kind of misunderstanding.

However, you are wrong to think that I'm not talking about PRO's metagame. Recently, I've been playing with Snowbull on his way to #1 (well, ngiannas ended up getting it back every single time). We did face you a few times. I remember that you even ran Aerodactyle as a lead. You also used a Krookodile/Talonflame/Gliscor/Tentacruel/Magnezone/Scizor team, if I recall correctly. But you did end up changing your team more than once. As you know, he runs a weird sand team with no Stealth Rock. He also runs Choice Band Dragonite. I do remember Extreme Speed sweeping a lot of teams once most Pokémon are low. I'm surprised you're not mentioning his lead Greninja (with Toxic Spikes), which is surprisingly good even without Protean.

Ngiannas sold an epic H.A. HP Fire Tangrowth not too long ago for over 1m. I, myself, sold an epic H.A. HP Fire Tangrowth. People have epic H.A. Talonflame. Tangela is way more common and easier to farm. Regardless, Tangrowth, Amoonguss and Venusaur can run poison-type coverage to deal with Breloom.

In any case, you shouldn't disregard my opinion just because I am mostly a Showdown player. I've been getting a lot of PRO experience thanks to Snowbull. He only faced 1 rain team when I played PvP with him. A lot of players ran sand teams, though (I remember mostly Jelvas). Most Tyranitar sets were specially offensive with Stealth Rock.

How is Scizor not good enough? JakeMurasaki (ranked #11) runs a VoltTurn core with Magnezone/Scizor, and I can tell you that Scizor is far from not being good anymore. With the right prediction and enough caution, you can reveal Magnezone and not get trapped by it.

Just one thing, though: even if you put a Pokémon to sleep and manage to freely Swords Dance, a good player will switch out as soon as you spore one of his Pokémon and go to something that can resist Mach Punch (or is immune to it): Volcarona, Talonflame, Togekiss, Gengar, etc.

<s></s>Breloom is not ranked below Poliwrath.<e></e> They're in the same tier (A-).

As for Dragonite, what stops it depends on the set it's running. If it's Dragon Dance, then it lacks an extra coverage move (meaning that Ferrothorn/Tangrowth can wall it if it runs Earthquake over Fire Punch and that a Pokémon like Empoleon --which Ngiannas, who's been #1 many times recently, uses a lot-- can wall it if it runs Fire Punch over Earthquake and threaten it with Scald or Stealth Rock+Roar). Choice Band Dragonite runs Extreme Speed, Outrage, Earthquake, and Fire Punch. While the coverage is basically perfect, it locks the Pokémon onto one move. That's the main drawback of the set.

<s></s>Edit:<e></e> I'd like to comment on this calculation:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 244 HP / 8+ Def Gliscor: 354-420 (100.5 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

An Impish Gliscor running 8 Def. EVs? That's what "+" before "Def" means (it means it's Impish). Also, Gliscor should always have 240 speed to outspeed both Adamant Breloom and Adamant Bisharp. On top of that, it can run either Swords Dance or Taunt. My point is: Gliscor is not "free" for Breloom. It also is a great Spore absorber with Toxic Orb. Once poisoned, it can switch into Breloom's spore, then switch out, predicting a Bullet Seed. A lot of Pokémon with Natural Cure can switch into Breloom even if it's a bad match-up. It's all about the mind games. Will you risk using Spore a second time or will you try to kill them, expecting them to switch out? Bullet Seed can also be disappointing because it's RNG. You need to predict right and, sometimes, you need to get lucky. Even if Breloom runs a Jolly nature, it will miss out on a lot of OHKOs and 2HKOs. Those are a lot of drawbacks (on top of what I mentioned earlier). However, if your problem is with Poliwrath being overranked, you can make a post and explain why it should go down to B+ (or lower tiers).</r>

Arlington · July 1, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.97_2

</s>
Don't worry about it. I knew there was some kind of misunderstanding. 
 
However, you are wrong to think that I'm not talking about PRO's metagame. Recently, I've been playing with Snowbull on his way to #1 (well, ngiannas ended up getting it back every single time). We did face you a few times. I remember that you even ran Aerodactyle as a lead. You also used a Krookodile/Talonflame/Gliscor/Tentacruel/Magnezone/Scizor team, if I recall correctly. But you did end up changing your team more than once. As you know, he runs a weird sand team with no Stealth Rock. He also runs Choice Band Dragonite. I do remember Extreme Speed sweeping a lot of teams once most Pokémon are low. I'm surprised you're not mentioning his lead Greninja (with Toxic Spikes), which is surprisingly good even without Protean. 
 
Ngiannas sold an epic H.A. HP Fire Tangrowth not too long ago for over 1m. I, myself, sold an epic H.A. HP Fire Tangrowth. People have epic H.A. Talonflame. Tangela is way more common and easier to farm. Regardless, Tangrowth, Amoonguss and Venusaur can run poison-type coverage to deal with Breloom. 
 
In any case, you shouldn't disregard my opinion just because I am mostly a Showdown player. I've been getting a lot of PRO experience thanks to Snowbull. He only faced 1 rain team when I played PvP with him. A lot of players ran sand teams, though (I remember mostly Jelvas). Most Tyranitar sets were specially offensive with Stealth Rock. 
 
How is Scizor not good enough? JakeMurasaki (ranked #11) runs a VoltTurn core with Magnezone/Scizor, and I can tell you that Scizor is far from not being good anymore. With the right prediction and enough caution, you can reveal Magnezone and not get trapped by it. 
 
Just one thing, though: even if you put a Pokémon to sleep and manage to freely Swords Dance, a good player will switch out as soon as you spore one of his Pokémon and go to something that can resist Mach Punch (or is immune to it): Volcarona, Talonflame, Togekiss, Gengar, etc. 
 
<s></s>Breloom is not ranked below Poliwrath.<e></e> They're in the same tier (A-). 
 
As for Dragonite, what stops it depends on the set it's running. If it's Dragon Dance, then it lacks an extra coverage move (meaning that Ferrothorn/Tangrowth can wall it if it runs Earthquake over Fire Punch and that a Pokémon like Empoleon --which Ngiannas, who's been #1 many times recently, uses a lot-- can wall it if it runs Fire Punch over Earthquake and threaten it with Scald or Stealth Rock+Roar). Choice Band Dragonite runs Extreme Speed, Outrage, Earthquake, and Fire Punch. While the coverage is basically perfect, it locks the Pokémon onto one move. That's the main drawback of the set. 
 
<s></s>Edit:<e></e> I'd like to comment on this calculation: 
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 244 HP / 8+ Def Gliscor: 354-420 (100.5 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO 
 
An Impish Gliscor running 8 Def. EVs? That's what "+" before "Def" means (it means it's Impish). Also, Gliscor should always have 240 speed to outspeed both Adamant Breloom and Adamant Bisharp. On top of that, it can run either Swords Dance or Taunt. My point is: Gliscor is not "free" for Breloom. It also is a great Spore absorber with Toxic Orb. Once poisoned, it can switch into Breloom's spore, then switch out, predicting a Bullet Seed. A lot of Pokémon with Natural Cure can switch into Breloom even if it's a bad match-up. It's all about the mind games. Will you risk using Spore a second time or will you try to kill them, expecting them to switch out? Bullet Seed can also be disappointing because it's RNG. You need to predict right and, sometimes, you need to get lucky. Even if Breloom runs a Jolly nature, it will miss out on a lot of OHKOs and 2HKOs. Those are a lot of drawbacks (on top of what I mentioned earlier). However, if your problem is with Poliwrath being overranked, you can make a post and explain why it should go down to B+ (or lower tiers).
<e>

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here's the problem , yeah i never lost to anyone more than 3 times but snowbull i have nothing to stop that choice band dragonite. And yeah maybe you're right in the upper ladder , maybe down to 400 rating ppl tends to use weird stuff , i'll try to get to 450 and learn more from those top players . About gliscor i've always consider careful gliscor is the best cause eventhough i don't have 1 , i have a jolly but i run spdef evs which allow me to stay in set up with not so good spatk mons like gastrodon icebeam (toxic then roost back) . I'm also not a PRO player , actually i've been playing showdown way back then (before sun and moon ) now i'm trying PRO and 1 thing that really give me a hard time playing is that it doesn't show both yours and your opponent mons . And thanks for the tips bro .</r>

Idkup · July 4, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.97_2

<t>breloom can just run rock tomb to murder birds, it's not like it's helpless against tflame / kiss... it's ridiculous that it's anywhere near poliwrath which is hardly viable lol</t>

Jorogumo · July 4, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.97_2

<t>If the issue is Breloom being in the same tier as Poliwrath, then why not move the latter down to B+ instead?</t>

Idkup · July 6, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.97_2

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If the issue is Breloom being in the same tier as Poliwrath, then why not move the latter down to B+ instead?
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why not move poliwrath to D or off the tier list

it has no recovery

its phazing move can miss and has mons immune to it

its scald is weak

it doesn't have enough bulk

it has many common weaknesses

i have no clue how that thing is so high</r>

Frrf · July 6, 2017

Re: PRO Viability Rankings (PVP) v0.97_2

</s>
<QUOTE author="Jorogumo" post_id="406137" time="1499210288" user_id="1005780"><s>
</s>
If the issue is Breloom being in the same tier as Poliwrath, then why not move the latter down to B+ instead?
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</e></QUOTE>

why not move poliwrath to D or off the tier list 
 
it has no recovery 
its phazing move can miss and has mons immune to it 
its scald is weak 
it doesn't have enough bulk 
it has many common weaknesses 
 
i have no clue how that thing is so high
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</e></QUOTE>

It has recovery in rest and sleep talk which somewhat mitigates the two turns of sleep, also it does check some prominent threat such as scizor weavile and bisharp.

However it is bait for fairies and flying types which are pretty common so I agree on the fact that it should go down in tiers but feel like D is too low</r>

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