PVP Feedback - Baton Pass

[Deita]

Baton pass is a playstyle, let the meta adapt naturally if it is in fact OP. There are already so many ways to beat BP..

Click taunt, defog, predict, use priority, unaware pokemon, set up on the baton passer, use intimidate/icy wind..etc, etc.

 

Having a PVP council to discuss topics like these would be great.

PRO has some amazing players that have contributed big changes to where PRO PVP is today (recent ex. muk stall). These players should be listened to, they have proven they understand the meta.

 

Nakofum and Qeight have some great insight. Definitely check out their posts out if you haven't already!

Edited May 1, 2020 by DeIta

[Nechrit]

First off: if the idea is to figure out whether it is too OP or not, and you have the ability to check win %, why would you ban it the first season after the baton passer in question is part of an heavily-hunted event? Let it run, check the numbers, see if needs adjustment. Right now you based a ban on an incredibly poor usage, in a game without MMR, on the base of people's opinion. Not how it works my dudes, ever heard of suspect testing?

 

 

I do not think it is ban worthy.

I have played a Scolipass team (the famous and feared one that GlogS used to play, and a few variations of my own) for hundreds of matches with guildies and friends: in the right hands it tears people, in the wrong hands it gets destroyed. Guess what, that's the case of every team :D

Hell, when playing with my boy Sukres we even beat the ''broken'' Scolipede team played by none other than GlogS himself a couple times. So it is doable after all?

 

-THE GAME HAS NO MMR! I will never stress this enough. We are playing against complete random people, the (very big) majority of which has no clue what they are doing. No offense, its just the truth, time and practice will make everyone better. A batonpass team can sweep a ''noob'', term which I hate but whatever, in less than 5 minutes. I can sweep a noob with any HO in less than 5 minutes, same with any folk who reached 1.7k+ elo on SD, ladder on PRO, won regionals three time or whatever e-peen number makes you cool nowadays.

The teams I see around are not prepared for threats like Mamoswine, Serperior, Greninja...let alone some more ''deep'' tech that requires setup, and knowledge thereof. Lack of knowledge is the biggest culprit of people losing to this team.

 

-Manaphy...I still hear about people wanting legendaries banned, or Chansey, because ''broken''. Come on it is 2020, we have an awesome thing called Google with plenty of answers and guides for you! Truth is it's is plain and simple, although for some hurtful: skill disaprity 80% of the time, 9% is having the better pokemon IV/cheese strat, 10% pure crit and status RNG. Last 1% is when the server crashes ;)

I (mostly friends I am playing together with) murdered thousands of poor Manaphys at this point, poor little creature. He sets up Tail Glow and 6-0 you? Why did you let that happen in the first place. Think about how you lost rather than the fact you lost, or what to. That being said, an incredibly powerful Pokemon in the right hands. In the right hands.

 

-Togekiss is not as reliable as one might think, although yes incredibly frustrating: all it takes is 1 turn with a miss, not flinch, a single crit, a wrong move (heal belling instead of roosting etc) and the match heavily swings in the opponent's favor. It's an annoying pokemon for sure, but not because of baton pass. A Scarfed one can 6-0 you with flinches too, I've seen it with my own eyes. An incredibly powerful Pokemon in the right hands. In the right hands. Ok not as much, can be all luck too in this case.

 

 

 

 

 

Another, reason why baton pass is considered ''broken'' (it is only just really good!...in the right hands) is because many things that can destroy that tech...ARE NOT YET CODED!

I mean they were promised for years along side other cool stuff, but I personally prefer having a double cool sword on my character's back :)

 

-Volt Switch and U-Turn do not work properly, you need to select a pokemon before you see what the opponent does, which means adding prediction on prediction...absolutely crazy and the fact it is not coded after 4 years is not justifiable. That alone can gain you momentum against any batonpass or setup team and set you up to deal with it (or any other team, for that matter, yes even Chansey!).

 

-Substitute. Should I explain how oppressive that move is and how punishing it is towards a possible baton pass...or stall (you know, all the people complaining that Chansey should be banned). Code that and the meta will drastically change. No bans needed!

 

-Lunar Dance/Healish Wish etc: Trick Room would absolutely destroy the Scolipass team ft. GlogS. Of course, assuming skill level is about the same, which as I already pointed out rarely is. Cresselia easily eats +3 Manaphy with 0 investments, with could even force a 3HKO: Plenty of time to Trick Room and Lunar Dance to your sweeper and turn it all around.

Healish Wish on a pokemon like scarf Latias/Jirachi (faster than 99% Pokemon who receive speedpass from Scoli) can revive one of your priority pokes to have a second chance. You should have not let that happen for free in the first place, but in case, it's nice to have the option to recover from a game.

 

-"game is gen 7 based". No it is not. We miss a drastic chunk of the dex. PRO is PRO, or if you want it to be Sun&Moon, introduce all the possible pokes. I am talking about Tapus, Megas, Toxapex (special mention because forces Manaphy to run Psychic>Energy Ball, hindering its ability to deal with tons of mons), Lando/Thund/Tornadus, Keldeo...without talking about Z-Moves, which single-handedly can deal with issues in your team with 1 click... in the right hands.

 

 

Adding different sets on Legendaries was a god send, about time (and im thankful for that, really!), but not quite enough to make the game balanced, competitive or whatever. We are missing WAY too many things. That being said, even with all those things missing, Baton Pass can be beaten.

 

I appreciate the thought of trying to improve the game, I really do. You are just doing it in the wrong way. Some duct-tape on a leaking tube will not stop the leak :)

 

 

 

ps: if there is anything I, or my friends, can do to facilitate the coding/bug testing or whatever of missing stuff, please reach out to me. Game has seen no real updates in ages at this point, I lost more friends switching games to the new ones I've made at this point :(

Edited May 1, 2020 by Nechrit

[Belzebel]

Baton pass is a playstyle, let the meta adapt naturally if it is in fact OP. There are already so many ways to beat BP..

Click taunt, defog, predict, use priority, unaware pokemon, set up on the baton passer, use intimidate/icy wind..etc, etc.

 

Having a PVP council to discuss topics like these would be great.

PRO has some amazing players that have contributed big changes to where PRO PVP is today (recent ex. muk stall). These players should be listened to, they have proven they understand the meta.

 

Nakofum and Qeight have some great insight. Definitely check out their posts out if you haven't already!

The only thing that can taunt a Scolipede is a Sableye (which is a trash pokemon) or any other pranksters, which are usually trash too. I don't know why you think defog is a counter to baton pass, so i will ignore that. Priority is not solid counter. Scolipede can protect and baton pass to something that resists the priority move. Unaware will not counter flinches. Icy wind dos not have enough damage, unless you are insane enough to baton pass to a Dragonite on a Gengar. I also don't know how intimidate helps...

There are no solid counters for Baton Pass, unless you use Sableye or Trick Room, which loses to everything else in PRO. Only trash comps can beat Baton Pass... and since only a few people use it, its not worth to use trick room only to counter it. So you will just have to accept to lose when you match a baton pass user, abusing the speed boost bug.

[Deita]

 

 

If all you are going to do is list random specific scenarios I can play this game too. I'm not trying to say that BP is completely countered, but the tools to stop it exist, use your prediction and teambuilding skills.

 

The only thing that can taunt a Scolipede is a Sableye (which is a trash pokemon) or any other pranksters, which are usually trash too.

 

Taunt - Scolipede is not the ONLY baton passer. Taunt is great for gliscor and mew. Not to mention you should be taunting these in the first place to prevent hazards/defog/will-o-wisp etc.

 

Unaware will not counter flinches.

 

Unaware - Not every pokemon is a togekiss. Some matchups will be favored more than others.

 

"I don't know why you think defog is a counter to baton pass, so i will ignore that. "

 

Icy wind dos not have enough damage, unless you are insane enough to baton pass to a Dragonite on a Gengar. I also don't know how intimidate helps..."

 

Intimidate/Defog/Icy wind - What I was explaining here was that adding a stat change to the baton passer will make it unable to baton pass.

 

Only trash comps can beat Baton Pass... and since only a few people use it, its not worth to use trick room only to counter it. So you will just have to accept to lose when you match a baton pass user, abusing the speed boost bug.

 

These were only some examples. More examples would include haze, clear smog, roar, dragon tail, etc, etc

Baton passing doesn't mean you instantly lose.

 

Let's also keep in mind that no team is going to have 100% win rate. If it's a priority that your team does not lose to baton pass change your team.

Edited May 1, 2020 by DeIta

[Keabu]

+1 Delta

[Coono]

The baton pass rules were fine as is, people seriously are gonna argue that baton pass is OP?

 

LMAO bring taunt/haze/roar or any variation and you win... wow how incredibly strong it is indeed.

 

Also for the usage argument, let people use HA Blazekin and watch what happens, ever play anything goes on showdown? Hes on just about every team. Theres clearly a massive difference and it's just hyperbole to conflate the 2.

[Mcschitter]

Baton Pass isn't very common or used in PRO. However, it doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a ban. Statics in PRO are not certain. So using the "this is not over used or this is over used" as an argument is invalid in my opinion. Ferrothorn for example is not OP at all and its over used. Tyranitar is OP and it is not being used at a lot anymore.

 

I will list a few reasons why Baton pass should be banned.

 

1) Speed Boost is not coded properly. It is giving more speed than it should after volt-switch and u-turn. For that reason, a lot of people are abusing baton pass. The solution for this in specific would be banning Speed Boost until is coded properly.

 

2) Baton Pass is banned in OU. I know PRO and Showdown are very different. We can't even compare PRO with Gen 6, since there are no megas. I also know the MAIN reason why they decided to ban baton pass without even a test was Necrozma, Magearna and Manaphy. For some reason, Manaphy is not bannned in PRO and it is OP on its own. Baton Pass just boosts it even more.

 

3) Manaphy, Togekiss, Latias and wallbreakers can be really OP with Baton Pass. In my opinion, Baton Pass simply boosts whatever is already OP. It turns OU Pokemon to Uber. Why do you think Blaziken with Speed Boost was turned to Uber? Because having more speed than anything and the stats it naturally has is just Uber, and Baton Pass makes it possible for any other pokemon. As I said, Manaphy is broken on its own. But with speed increased it just has no counters. Togekiss with speed passed can be faster than anything and still Nasty Plot. I don't think Unaware Pokemon are proper counters because it can be flinched to death, specially if it is a Modest Togekiss. Not even weather pokemon will be faster than that. Specially with Speed Boost not coded properly. Latias with Stored Power, Speed Passed and Calm Mind.... do I need to say something? About the wallbreaker, well... they are bulky pokemon with a lot of damage, imagine if they had speed... well..

 

4) The only thing that can counter Baton Pass properly is Trick Room, which is bad against everything else in PRO. Some would say Scizor might be good against Baton Pass... well, Scizor is a free pass to Manaphy, I would say. I really don't know anything that can counter a fast Manaphy... Maybe Scarf Serperior? Well, with the Volt Switch/U-turn bug, it will be +2, so nevermind...

 

5) Why is Manaphy not banned? Manaphy was Uber until Megas were out on Showdown. We don't have megas in RRO yet. I'm pretty sure everyone knows the Manaphy win ratio is pretty high, specially if it is Rain Dance set. When I say "pretty high" I mean, too high... in a way you can just rely on its "OPness" to win, instead of actually making some effort, which is the purpose of a strategy game, in my opinion.

 

6) Here's the link for the Baton Pass ban discussion in Showdown. You can take your own conclusions.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-in-sm-ou.3604290/page-2#post-7370590

Please keep in mind Necrozma and Magearna are not the only OP things in Baton Pass. Don't just ignore everything I said about Manaphy, Togekiss, Latias and wallbreakers just because they haven't mentioned it in this post.

 

7) Before you say I am complaining about Baton Pass because it is good against sun. I really don't care about what counters sun or not. I was the one who reported the Burn Up bug. If I really cared about it, I would just keep abusing the bug and get easy wins like people are doing with Baton Pass, abusing speed boost bug and its natural OPness.

 

I apologise my english isn't good enough to express my thoughts properly, but I think these are good reasons to consider?... well, thanks for reading.

 

 

I think honestly you sold the point on number one because that is a very good reason but there is a lot of holes with the rest once it is fixed honestly.

 

2) We only have manaphy at the moment so I am not to sure how this is relevant as Showdown did not ban fully baton pass as a clause until gen7 even if controversial.

 

3) Blaziken is busted because self abusing speed boost is nuts on a good pokemon, you do not see nincanda being banned for a good reason. Yes baton passing speed boost can be powerful, so can SD on bisharp or other pokemon, counters do exist and players should have to be able to play around this.

 

4) Trick Room in general is not weak to an entire meta its weak to particularly powerful counter like taunt, protect, and knock off (without z-crystals, mega stones, or abundant sources of colbur berries). All of these are frequently common and are the reason why the archetype suffers. I have beaten plenty of meta teams when they do not have it with my trick room.

 

5) Manaphy is not banned because it never was banned when weather was not permanent. Manaphy is strong agreed but so are plenty of other pokemon in this meta.

 

6) This is a repeat of an earlier point and mons do have counters, lati literally hard loses to Muk, Togekiss to Bisharp, and etc.

 

7) Sun counter or not is whatever just here like you to talk about it I do not play the archetype much I do not really care what happens to it but I would rather push diversity than the opposite until the game can get more regular fixes to PvP content.

[Qeight]

I think honestly you sold the point on number one because that is a very good reason but there is a lot of holes with the rest once it is fixed honestly.

 

https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/148777-url/?do=findComment&comment=820774

 

Need to hammer this into people, NO there are not A LOT of people abusing this. This is just flat out wrong.

"For that reason, a lot of people are abusing baton pass."

This statement is 100% inaccurate and is not supported by anything at all.

[Heroofthestreet]

Taunt - Scolipede is not the ONLY baton passer. Taunt is great for gliscor and mew. Not to mention you should be taunting these in the first place to prevent hazards/defog/will-o-wisp etc.

It's not the only one, but it's certainly the one people use in more than 90% of the cases when running Baton Pass teams. As such, taunt is no option to counter it whatsoever, bar the rare and niche prankster users that have access to it.

 

Intimidate/Defog/Icy wind - What I was explaining here was that adding a stat change to the baton passer will make it unable to baton pass.

The evasiveness drop Defog causes to the pokemon carrying Baton Pass, won't hinder it from baton passing. Not even in PRO, where we know how the move is bugged in correlation with Intimidate. Next time make sure to check if your arguments are valid, before involving yourself into a discussion.

 

Let's also keep in mind that no team is going to have 100% win rate.

 

 

On the screens are the ladder results from June 2019 and November 2019. Both from the SIlver server. I'd advise you to check out rank 10 on the first screen and rank 18 on the second. Again, next time before you say something, make sure it's correct.

 

While I don't necessarily think Baton Pass needs to be banned from the ranked PVP in PRO (due to the properly working mechanics, it definitely should from the ladder tour tho), I will always be against it as long as the people supporting it want to abuse the already broken Manaphy and the hax reliant bulky Togekiss, all under the banner of creativity and diversity.

Edited May 3, 2020 by HeroOfTheStreet

[Baganha]

I believe the only problem here is speed passing, which no doubt, is the most efficient use of bp. Personally, speed passing's real problem isnt how solid as a playstyle it is, which dont get me wrong it is a solid playstyle but how effective it can be at the hands of any player, even unexperienced ones. As it stands i feel like the lack of options such as substitute and attract make scolipede a much less than ideal passer than what it was on smogon, forcing the player to run support from screens/veil if it wants to get more than one boost that it gets from protect to its abusers. Despite this even if youre going for only 3 abusers it can be enough to cover most teams and much of this comes from two mons, manaphy and togekiss. In my opinion this is where the unhealthy aspect of bp comes into play, manaphy, which some of you might already know my opinion about, is absolutely devastating with speed boosts, making it much harder to revenge kill by offensive means, its has its stops, spdef ferro, cm unaware clef, mantine but realistically any ho is just gonna have to rely on priority to take out this mon, togekiss is an even worse example, anything thats worse than scarf togekiss can only be scarf togekiss on steroids, it still gonna rely on flinches to get what it wants only now it has the speed or higher of scarf and np at his disposal. I hope you understand how problematic this is, the way i see it bp is arguably the least competitive playstyle there is, sure you can say archtypes like ho and stall arent much better but they both have they're assets in making a player better, ho forces the player to be more aggresive and relying on prediction to get ahead, stall is a good demonstration on how a player can take a really complicated aspect from pokemon, that being the exhaust of all/almost all of your opponents resources and play it to its advantage, its not always easy has there are tools your opponent has at his disposal to dismantle your team, therefore making a proper stall team while hard is very rewarding for the player. With speed passing youre essentially playing a formula, getting hazard/screens/speed boost/boosting with recipient and youre done, you either win or dont, it really doesnt matter tho because thats the extent of the playstyle, you do not evolve as a player therefore its uncompetitive, nako put it perfectly "When you play pvp, you can't rely on the success of a probability too much to do and that doesn't depend on you, it's the same as being against the competition itself." replace the context of air slash flinch with matchup speed passing can have and that about sums it up my thoughts on it. Its the main reason why i used it on tours and pvp ladder, since im very bad at aknowledging how good my opponent is, its perfect at fishing a good matchup, in case i didnt want to play agressive with HO or bulky offense or going safe and risk my opponent bringing something very strong against it. Also if talon was buffed again scoli would be much harder to actually bp, just saying :].

 

However there are other examples of bp not being broken, nowhere near of the level of speedpassing, using baton pass with other boosts like cm or sd, means its much easier to revenge kill not only the recipient but even potentially the passer, it also allows for creative combos, a lot of it can benefit matchups against just about any playstyle but mainly stall/balance. Drypass is also a good reason as to why bp shouldnt be banned as a whole, and sure there arent many pokemon that abuse that tech but i dont see why they shouldnt be allowed to use it because one mon made it unhealthy for everyone. Medicham for example, could use baton pass to its favor to force mons like cofag or reuni inside and bring something like ttar, this is an example of bp being put to good use, rewarding the player for predicting its opponent.

 

Tl;dr: baton pass as a whole isnt a broken element of the game imo, i do however think speed passing is an unhealthy aspect that i wouldnt mind see it gone as it heavily promotes uncompetitive play, otherwise i feel like any other type of bp use should be encouraged.