PVP Feedback - Baton Pass

[Jorogumo]

As someone who was initially leaning toward a blanket Baton Pass ban, I decided to keep an open mind and listen to both sides, and I must admit that the anti-ban side has provided more convincing arguments than the pro-ban side thus far. There is a lot of misinformation going on and I think that some good points have been made and should be acknowledged. It is unfortunate that I only started PvPing again in PRO while Baton Pass is banned, so I had to do a lot of research to try to make up for my lack of in-game experience with the move/playstyle, although I ran into it a lot on Showdown.

 

Baton Pass is just not restricted to one player, it's for both players out there. So its fair to say both teams can use them in the way the want. If some uses boosted Togekiss then this that blah blah, the other guy can also do it, maybe even better it by boosting it on a different Pokemon or can come up with an epic counter, and that is what battle is all about. Besides baton pass is still used in OU battles in smogon, which basically means there ain't nothing "broke game" about it.

This is simply not true. Baton Pass is currently banned in ORAS OU and USUM OU and is even banned in many lower tiers. More and more tiers and previous generations are suspect testing Baton Pass. In 2019, USUM LC banned Baton Pass. It must also be said that banning or suspect testing Baton Pass in older generations, such as ADV OU and DPP OU, usually does not involve banning Baton Pass as a whole, but rather further restricting the currently implemented clauses. BW OU seems to be against a full ban of the move, although that thread and this one both show that the BW OU council may have acted against what the majority of players think by trying to impose the Shadow Tag ban, deeming trapping uncompetitive yet failing to explain why Magnet Pull has not been addressed in the BW OU metagame where it is arguably more problematic and certainly more common than Gothitelle. PRO does have some Gen 7 mechanics, but it is still weirdly trying to balance itself out between Gen 5 and Gen 6. I think that ORAS OU is the closest Smogon comparison, although I think that such comparisons can be dangerous sometimes. Pokémon Revolution Online is not Showdown and does not have to blindly follow Smogon's rules. In ORAS OU, Baton Pass underwent a lot of changes: it was first restricted to 3 Baton Pass users, but problems kept arising, so it was then narrowed down to 1 Baton Pass user, which was still not enough to prevent newer issues; the complex Baton Pass clause in its final form ultimately stated that there can only be 1 Baton Pass user that cannot pass speed with other stats. So many complex clauses were put in place to attempt to preserve a playstyle that became problematic whenever it picked up in usage. Yet again, Baton Pass teams managed to remain an issue because they always found a way to circumvent the implemented restrictions. NJNP used Lansat Berry Scolipede with Scope Lens Sniper Kingdra to prove why Baton Pass is inherently broken and will always be abused to get easy wins. You can be the judges: NJNP's 1st replay, NJNP's 2nd replay, and NJNP's 3rd replay. Yes, PRO does not have Substitute, which is a big component of Baton Pass. Yes, there are several issues hindering its efficiency. However, who is to say that someone will not find an intricate way to abuse Baton Pass in its current format? How long will we have to wait until someone finally breaks Baton Pass, thus causing even more outrage? If someone manages to find a way to do that in the future, it will actually be proof that Baton Pass is currently ban-worthy. I am not going to discuss the other part of the message I quoted because being able to use Mega Rayquaza against Mega Rayquaza (and other examples are endless) is evidently no proof that Mega Rayquaza can be healthy in PvP. If something is deemed ban-worthy (meaning either broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive), we should not be inciting players to use it as a countermeasure.

 

So, is Baton Pass broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive? Well, this thread is an interesting read, although it mostly pertains to Smogon. I will summarize its main points for you, but please feel free to check it out. Smogon/Showdown uses skill as the main way to gauge someone's worth in competitive Pokémon. Yes, funnily enough, Pokémon happens to be one of the least competitive games due to all the luck- and RNG-based interactions. However, that is not an excuse for not trying to maximize skill-reliant match-ups and minimize skill-less mechanics as much as possible. As such, there are clauses regarding evasion, sleep, and whatnot. There are also Pokémon and ability bans. What is the definition of uncompetitive? Based on that thread, uncompetitive elements "reduce the effect of player choice/interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant." We then have some examples of uncompetitive features: "This can be match-up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match-up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough." What about broken then? Broken elements "are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant," but we also have the important following note in bold characters: "While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter/check component." Yes, an uncompetitive component of PvP does not have to be broken to warrant a ban. And what does unhealthy mean? Unhealthy elements "are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit 'skillful play' to a large extent." It is important to understand that these words are not mutually exclusive, yet not necessarily interchangeable. Something deemed ban-worthy can be uncompetitive and broken, but it only needs to satisfy one of those definitions. What makes Baton Pass inherently uncompetitive? When players discussed this on Smogon (cf. this thread), they did not mention any specific Pokémon (e.g., Manaphy), but allow me to share some of their thoughts:

 

 

 

 

Out of fairness, I included the last statement, which is more moderate and does not deem all of Baton Pass to be uncompetitive. However, as proven in ORAS OU, Baton Pass as a whole was still considered to be uncompetitive, which ultimately led to its ban in 2018:

 

 

The main culprit? Scolipede. Why not just ban Scolipede? Well, because there is no point in preserving a move that has to be almost restricted to nothingness to keep being used! It already is a shadow of its former self! Some people even suggested preserving DryPass (using Baton Pass without passing any stats, simply to switch out, sometimes also to avoid Pursuit). Why should we bother with an inherently uncompetitive feature of the game? If Scolipede were to be banned, someone might find another Baton Pass (ab)user. I said might, not will. Who knows? The move is uncompetitive by nature, so it will remain problematic as long as it is allowed. Here is an interesting Reddit thread explaining why Baton Pass is uncompetitive:

 

 

 

 

 

I will mostly talk about Speed Boost Scolipede, which seems to be the most commonly used Baton Pass user. Baton Pass in PRO surely uses Pokémon that all teams should naturally be prepared for regardless, right? To an extent, yes, but let's keep in mind that preparing for Manaphy is not the same as preparing for +1 Manaphy, which then outspeeds and KOs anything that would otherwise be able to outspeed it and check it (e.g., Serperior). Defensively, you might think that this does not make a difference at all, but it definitely does. If someone is running Ferrothorn on a Manaphy-weak team, there are good chances that it is running Power Whip to be able to beat Manaphy. This puts the Baton Pass user in an advantageous situation from the get-go, as they will be able to play around that and potentially guess Ferrothorn's coverage and switch-ins. This also puts incredible pressure on the player facing the Baton Pass team, because they know that the Baton Pass player should know that Ferrothorn most likely carries Power Whip. If the Baton Pass player switches out to a Fighting-type or something that can deal with Ferrothorn expecting it to switch into Manaphy, the other player can predict that and ultimately not go to Ferrothorn. But what if the Baton Pass player decides to Tail Glow instead of switching out? Then the other player is now against a speedy Manaphy with a Tail Glow buff and Ferrothorn has to switch into it and take 2 hits instead of 1. Skill can thus easily be taken out of the equation. Should that player have gone to Ferrothorn first regardless? Well, in that case, they would have lost momentum had the Baton Pass player chosen to double switch to another Pokémon. Why didn't Ferrothorn switch into Scolipede on the turn Manaphy was expected to receive the Speed boost? But what if another Pokémon was given that boost? What then? If Ferrothorn switches into Manaphy, the Baton Pass player has more freedom to switch out than his opponent getting caught in the unfavorable situation of switching Ferrothorn into a Fighting-type. Baton Pass might not lose right away because of a misprediction, while the team facing Baton Pass will get behind and have fewer chances, if any at all, to recover against a Baton Pass team constantly pressuring the opponent into potentially making another mistake. Can't Ferrothorn kill Manaphy anyway? Well, that is assuming that Manaphy will not switch out and already took sufficient prior damage to put it in range of Power Whip, which does not OHKO it. Manaphy might also be running a bulkier spread than usual, thus ensuring that it can somewhat comfortably survive Power Whip. And can't something else revenge kill Manaphy if Ferrothorn dies? That is assuming that you have something faster than +1 Manaphy that also happens to be able to do enough damage to kill it. Choice Band Dragonite's Extreme Speed does an impressive 50% at best to uninvested Manaphy. Shouldn't all teams have a secondary check to something as prevalent and strong as Manaphy? Possibly, yes, but it might now be slower than +1 Manaphy. Why is Manaphy being used as an example? Simply because everyone keeps talking about it pushing Baton Pass over the edge. Why don't people use stall (and more specifically Unaware Calm Mind Clefable) to beat a speedy and bulky Manaphy? Because they might not want to and, rightfully so, should have more than a few options to choose from. Why don't people start to specifically prepare for Baton Pass teams or at least the most commonly used Baton Pass Pokémon, which also happen to be good on their own? Because those Pokémon have fewer (most notably offensive) checks if they receive a Speed boost and, as such, their typical checks might no longer be able to properly deal with them. I mentioned Serperior for Manaphy earlier, but there are other offensive countermeasures, which can be popular or unpopular, such as Choice Scarf Magnezone, Raikou, and even Gengar. Should people start putting a Choice Scarf on Gengar because it is not a bad option against non-Baton Pass teams and can still better the team's match-up against Baton Pass teams? Should they also use 1, 2, or even 3 priority users to ensure that Speed boost recipients can be properly revenge killed? Doesn't Quiver Dance Volcarona freely set up against Speed Boost Scolipede and still outspeed all Baton Pass recipients? Having to run specific Pokémon, abilities, moves, or items to counter something as uncommon as Baton Pass is not exactly the sign of a healthy metagame. Doing so might (and most likely will) put you at a disadvantage against more common playstyles. Even then, you still won't get an automatic win against that one Baton Pass team that you might go against every once in a while. My opinion does not change when it comes to other inherently uncompetitive features. Do I think that having to run Shed Shell on a Pokémon that benefits from other options is uncompetitive? Yes, I do. Do I think that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive? Yes. Do I think that being able to set up on Magnezone once it has killed something makes this less uncompetitive? No, we were also able to use set-up moves against Dugtrio and Gothitelle. That did not make them less broken. Do I think that Magnezone trapping fewer Pokémon than Dugtrio and Gothitelle makes it less uncompetitive? Absolutely not! Smogon banned Gothita, Diglett, and Trapinch by banning Arena Trap as a whole. Those Pokémon trapped virtually nothing of relevance in comparison to Magnezone. Do I think that Serene Grace is uncompetitive? Yes, even though there are only 2 viable users of the move in PvP (Togekiss and Jirachi). Do I think that King's Rock is uncompetitive? Yes. Why hasn't Smogon done anything about any of that then? I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. Cloyster's King's Rock set has been gaining traction. I know that many people on Smogon suggested banning King's Rock and Magnezone in the past. Usually, no action is taken unless something gains a lot of popularity and becomes a bigger issue in high elo and/or in tournaments. This happened with Baton Pass every single time until it was eventually banned altogether. Will players surprise their opponents by using Baton Pass in PRO's Showdown tours? Why not? It is certainly more efficient and less dysfunctional on Showdown. Why don't we wait until Substitute is coded or more powerful abusers are added or found? Essentially, this means that we should wait for Baton Pass' inherent uncompetitiveness to emerge in a blatantly undeniable fashion. Baton Pass will then still be the same; it will just be able to be used in conjunction with new tools that are undeniably problematic. Is it too soon to discuss banning Baton Pass? Well, not really, because administrators brought up this issue and, as such, it deserves to be discussed. Does banning the move have to be the inevitable outcome? No. We are not Smogon. PRO is not Showdown. Not only do we not have to ban Baton Pass now, but we also don't have to ban it later. Yes, we are using Showdown for many tours, but we are using a format that allows anything to be tailored according to PRO's rules! Is Baton Pass currently broken? No. Is it currently unhealthy? No. Can it become broken or unhealthy? Yes, in the future. Is it inherently uncompetitive? Absolutely. It can still be brought against players in ladder tournaments just to unsettle them in an attempt to unexpectedly get an easy/free win against them with a playstyle that they probably never specifically prepare for and should not have to prepare for in the first place. And no, good teams should not naturally be built to handle Baton Pass teams; they should be able to deal with relevant and more common playstyles instead. The issue here is that Baton Pass teams do not just constitute a cheese strategy. They are serious teams that are capable of consistently winning matches on their own, and not just because of the surprise factor. Let's maybe refocus on discussing banning Baton Pass from PRO's Showdown tournaments.

 

1. Baton Pass is not over used.

 

2. Do the people who use baton pass always easily win every game ?? Obviously not !!!

 

3. It's a team strategy. Ban baton pass = reduce the variety of PVP.

 

How can a move not be OU? Scolipede might not have sufficient usage to be OU, but it was UUBL in both ORAS and USUM, meaning it was also not OU by usage. That did not stop Smogon from banning Baton Pass. Something can have low usage and still be deemed ban-worthy. Shadow Tag Gothitelle was also UUBL in Gen 5... until it got banned. Do the people who use Baton Pass always win every game with ease? Of course not. Do those same people still auto-win some games because of favorable match-ups? Yes! Does Baton Pass allow teams to have more favorable match-ups than other playstyles? I believe so, mainly due to how unprepared teams are to face Baton Pass. Do I prepare for Baton Pass teams when I build teams? Never! Should I? Maybe, but I should not have to! How do you prepare for the combination of King's Rock Cloyster, Serene Grace Togekiss, and Serene Grace Jirachi? Can you even prepare for something uncompetitive that attempts to make the match as skill-less as possible in order to let luck and RNG decide its outcome? Is Baton Pass really skill-less? Baton Pass players can still play really well and make smart plays, but can also sometimes Baton Pass once to a Pokémon and automatically win from the get-go because Baton Pass teams can patch up one of the weaknesses of top-tier threats like Manaphy and Togekiss. Do Baton Pass teams manage to 6-0 frequently? No, but the fact that they can do so while also circumventing some of the Baton Pass recipients' usual checks proves that the move is uncompetitive by nature. Moreover, I certainly don't think that any playstyle or move should be kept for the sake of diversity just to preserve less than 5% of teams.

 

I want to clarify something. People talk about usage. If usage matters that much for people, then we should probably unban H.A Blaziken, Shadow Tag and Arena Trap. People can't see the forest for the trees. What about Speed and another Stat passing? Anyone thinks this was used a lot? We unfairly banned it then. I m very old in PRO Staff and the usage "argument"(I can't really count it as valid one) was always brought up by people who wanted something untouched.

 

If we followed Smogon's tiering policy before Baton Pass ever became an issue in PRO, why are we not following through on all aspects of Smogon's Baton Pass ban? Everyone knew all along that PRO had different mechanics than Showdown. The biggest, in this case, is the lack of Substitute. There are also other differences. Yet, I don't recall people disagreeing with the implementation of the complex clause that Smogon had in place (only having a single Baton Pass user not being able to Baton Pass speed and other stats). If we chose to copy Smogon's rules, why did we not follow through? Is it because we should have never tried to replicate what Smogon did and, instead, let PRO be its own independent game? A bit too late for that now.

 

When you play pvp, you can't rely on the success of a probability too much to do and that doesn't depend on you, it's the same as being against the competition itself. Togekiss is very strong when he flinches, but he's also mediocre when he misses and doesn't flinch, that's why relying on him as a pass stick is abusive, lacks consistency and knowledge.

 

Sorry to cherry-pick this part of your good post. Yes, Togekiss relies on flinches, but it also has a manageable speed tier. Would Togekiss become unbearable if it had 350 speed? I think so. And Baton Pass just happens to be able to patch up its poor speed, thus lowering the number of its usual checks, which would otherwise outspeed it and KO it. Togekiss also has respectable bulk, especially if it can run a more defensive set thanks to potentially receiving a Speed buff. This means that it can also set up Nasty Plot and accentuate the uncompetitive nature of Serene Grace flinches by doing a lot of damage and being harder to revenge kill. Being able to win games thanks to flinches is arguably uncompetitive, but something can usually outspeed Togekiss and force it out, thus perhaps recovering momentum and still having some sort of say in the outcome of the match. A speedy, bulky Togekiss can sometimes sweep an entire team if it relies on flinches while also being faster than everything else. Failing to flinch once will most likely not result in Togekiss' death, so it can just resume being uncompetitive afterward. The replay that you posted is very interesting because it shows how good players have adapted to the lack of Substitute. I am not saying that Scolipede does not need Substitute; I just think that running two coverage options instead of one actually worked in your favor in that specific match-up, although you also outplayed your opponent (particularly toward the end). I must, however, comment that, while coupling Baton Pass with Aurora Veil is an original idea, it remains an attempt to exacerbate Baton Pass' inherent uncompetitiveness by circumventing more of its recipients' weaknesses and abusing all available tools (in this case, Aurora Veil) to ensure Baton Pass' maximum efficiency. This is not to say that the combination of Baton Pass and Aurora Veil necessarily pushes Baton Pass over the edge. It is simply yet another attempt to break the playstyle (by merging it with another potentially problematic one). Eventually, someone might succeed in doing so.

 

Tl;dr: baton pass as a whole isnt a broken element of the game imo, i do however think speed passing is an unhealthy aspect that i wouldnt mind see it gone as it heavily promotes uncompetitive play, otherwise i feel like any other type of bp use should be encouraged.

 

I actually somewhat disagree with this. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Speed passing is the primary culprit as of right now. However, why should we further restrict an already complex enough clause? There have already been several restrictions and clauses on Smogon. Every single time, people thought that Baton Pass would never become a problem again. They were wrong! Someone somehow managed to abuse its inherently uncompetitive nature in spite of the increasingly complex bans. If we ban Speed passing, we should ban Baton Pass altogether instead of trying to preserve some niche, irrelevant strategies that no one currently uses and that someone might eventually figure out a way to abuse. What then? Are we going to move from clause #4 to clause #5? Are people ultimately going to ask for Baton Pass to be kept just for DryPass' sake? This is unprecedented! This is a move! We are trying to alter Baton Pass' inherent properties. Either keep it or remove it altogether. Let's not make the same mistake as Smogon by introducing even more unnecessary, complex bans.

 

 

Baton pass should be banned from early unless Ditto Imposter transform is coded to counter baton pass.

 

Ditto should never be anyone's primary countermeasure. Why? Because high Ditto usage is indicative of an unhealthy metagame, which people noticed in SS OU prior to the Dynamax ban.

 

 

So talonflame getting nerfed OR(and i say or because its not a combination and thats the thing people fail to understand,that one of the reasons mentioned is enough to get baton banned)magerna being introduced is enough to get the move banned.

 

Baton Pass is currently banned in ORAS OU. It was banned in retrospect because it was still deemed uncompetitive in spite of the Magearna-less and Necrozma-less Gen 6 OU environment and Gale Wings did not get nerfed until Gen 7.

 

I see people mentioning the thread that got Baton Pass banned in Gen 7 OU and when reading it, I wonder if they did. I wonder if they watched the replays linked. If you did, I assume you would've noticed a few common factors, namely Dugtrio with Arena Trap and Scolipede having access to Substitute + a properly working Baton Pass.

All that just means, that we're comparing a "complete" metagame with that of PRO's. We're comparing working mechanics to those of PRO. We're comparing Pokémon like Necrozma and Magearna with the likes of Togekiss and Manaphy. We're not accurately taking into consideration the lack of Substitute and the presence of Arena Trap Dugtrio. Maybe this is a good time to mention that the Dugtrio run on those teams was run with Memento in order to cripple the opponent and give Scolipede a more or less free Substitute.

 

Arena Trap was eventually banned and Baton Pass was never reconsidered for a re-test. The fact that Baton Pass was banned before Arena Trap speaks volumes about Baton Pass' uncompetitive nature. The council determined that the immediate issue was Baton Pass, not Arena Trap. The former was quick banned, while the latter was suspect tested a few months later. In ORAS OU, Baton Pass was banned after Arena Trap, which proves that it managed to remain an issue despite not being able to abuse Dugtrio any longer. The lack of Substitute definitely has to be taken into consideration, but I thought I would comment on the Arena Trap part. I actually agree with many points that you made. Serene Grace Togekiss is inherently uncompetitive, but so is Magnet Pull Magnezone. You may generate as much pressure as you want against them, they will do whatever they can to ensure that the outcome of the game is in RNG's hands. You can play extremely carefully against Magnezone, yet somehow still get trapped if you misplay or mispredict (or even if your opponent misplays and gets you to misplay as a result). You can also be patient and careful against Dugtrio and Gothitelle or run Shed Shell to prevent being trapped. Using Choice Scarf Togekiss has no justification other than wanting to outspeed and flinch down checks to slower variants. Even without Choice Scarf, Serene Grace Togekiss remains uncompetitive and, as such, will logically find itself being used on other uncompetitive playstyles (namely Baton Pass) in an attempt to harness their full uncompetitive potential.

 

I just want everyone to keep an open mind. I certainly could have said a lot about why Baton Pass can be kept for now if we really insist on delaying the inevitable, but others already made brilliant statements regarding that. Maybe I am wrong, but maybe you are, too. Let's all listen to opposing arguments instead of shrugging them off before giving them a chance. Then, we will have a healthy discussion instead of a heated debate.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jorogumo

[0danobunaga]

Ditto should never be anyone's primary countermeasure. Why? Because high Ditto usage is indicative of an unhealthy metagame, which people noticed in SS OU prior to the Dynamax ban.

we are in gen 7 not gen 8

[Baganha]

I actually somewhat disagree with this. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Speed passing is the primary culprit as of right now. However, why should we further restrict an already complex enough clause? There have already been several restrictions and clauses on Smogon. Every single time, people thought that Baton Pass would never become a problem again. They were wrong! Someone somehow managed to abuse its inherently uncompetitive nature in spite of the increasingly complex bans. If we ban Speed passing, we should ban Baton Pass altogether instead of trying to preserve some niche, irrelevant strategies that no one currently uses and that someone might eventually figure out a way to abuse. What then? Are we going to move from clause #4 to clause #5? Are people ultimately going to ask for Baton Pass to be kept just for DryPass' sake? This is unprecedented! This is a move! We are trying to alter Baton Pass' inherent properties. Either keep it or remove it altogether. Let's not make the same mistake as Smogon by introducing even more unnecessary, complex bans.

 

"why should we restrict an already complex enough clause?" because not everything about it is necessarily broken unless proven otherwise, i assume you were fine (by fine i mean you found the rules of the clause understandable, not necessarily that you thought they were balanced) with the complex clause pro and smogon had implemented before, why should it be diferent now?

 

"Every single time, people thought that Baton Pass would never become a problem again. They were wrong!" - this mostly applies to speed passing and if talking about recent gens(6-7) you could even argue totally, and taking into account all the discussions triggered in this thread it seems that everyones main issue seems to be about speed boost, its not a coincidence that the most dominant bp teams in pro meta were speed passing, same goes smogon after the bp clause.

 

"If we ban Speed passing, we should ban Baton Pass altogether instead of trying to preserve some niche, irrelevant strategies that no one currently uses and that someone might eventually figure out a way to abuse" - whats is really the downside of attempting to preserve a mechanic to the fullest of its capabilities without being broken/unhealthy for the metagame? by giving more options, niche or not, youre at least enriching the meta a bit more, seems neglectful to just throw away a move for simplicity sake, you can say smogon did this but they tried to make it work, outside of sleep, baton pass is the only other mechanic they've implemented a complex clause. I dont see how it can be detrimental to at least test this option out, if bp further shows thats its still holds a negative impact for the meta, then we could just deem drypass the only legal way for the move to be used. whats so wrong in that?

 

"Either keep it or remove it altogether. Let's not make the same mistake as Smogon by introducing even more unnecessary, complex bans." - if you can show that having only one pokemon using bp to pass stats that arent speed to be broken fine, if you can show that drypass is broken fine, otherwise you cant call it unnecessary if it actually doesnt happen to be a negative thing for the meta.

[Coono]

It seems like everyone's problem is with scolipede exclusively... so just ban baton pass on scolipede if anything (I know, big brain)

 

Also ditto is the most broken mon in history, you allowed your opponent to set up and then 1 click of a button and for free you can just steal it and completely reverse all the momentum your opponent actually EARNED? There's nothing competitive about ditto, literally zero skill required. It's grade-A organic cheese, farm to table, no preservatives.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Coono

[Idkup]

As someone who was initially leaning toward a blanket Baton Pass ban, I decided to keep an open mind and listen to both sides, and I must admit that the anti-ban side has provided more convincing arguments than the pro-ban side thus far. There is a lot of misinformation going on and I think that some good points have been made and should be acknowledged. It is unfortunate that I only started PvPing again in PRO while Baton Pass is banned, so I had to do a lot of research to try to make up for my lack of in-game experience with the move/playstyle, although I ran into it a lot on Showdown...

This is a well-written post, and certainly the most eloquent argument in favor of a ban on Baton Pass yet - that it will become a problem in the future, and thus, we should act preemptively to deal with it before it becomes an issue. However, I disagree on a fundamental level about the properties of uncompetitive strategies and at what point they should be deemed banworthy.

 

We discussed this on Discord yesterday, but I feel the conversation is worth carrying on here. I posited that the current metagame, despite all the complaints, is in fact healthy because a large variety of playstyles are viable. You responded that balance is weak, which is true, and a polarized metagame with a lot of hyper offense and stall is not healthy. I then argued that the weakness of balance had little to do with its ability to win any given match, but rather that it was much more likely to lose to a weaker opponent, as the playstyle is less forcing than offense, which can dictate momentum in the hands of a skilled player, and stall, which can outlast nearly anything with perfect play. This combined with PRO heavily punishing losses to weak players, I argued, is the reason for the poor state of classic balance on ladder.

 

I have a unique and biased perspective on Baton Pass. After all, I built the infamous team that got us here in the first place: https://pokepast.es/6563a3fc106521a2 . Everything that follows is about that team specifically and some quirks that may or may not have been covered by others in this thread already.

 

Firstly, this team was built to be uncompetitive. All of my teams are. Not attempting to limit counterplay is, simply put, a teambuilding mistake. The more chances you give your opponent to play the game, the more chances your opponent has to win. With this in mind, it easily capitalizes on small mistakes from offensive teams, and will never lose to a team that does not have answers nor offensive pressure in competent hands. The most important turn for Baton Pass is Team Preview - against offense, lines ten turns deep can easily be precisely calculated, and forced wins against poorly-constructed teams can be evident from turn 0 and carried out. This certainly sounds broken and banworthy, doesn't it? However, the very predictability which allows a Baton Pass player to take over and annihilate weaker players without concern also makes the team subpar against good players. A good opponent can easily identify the Baton Pass player's win condition on the other side of the board and utterly deny it with minimal preparation - for example, keeping Clefable at above 90% HP so that Manaphy can never get through, barring an errant Ice Beam freeze or critical hit. Ultimately, Baton Pass is another style of Hyper Offense - one that trades off power against other offensive teams for a slightly better balance matchup and dominance against the unprepared.

 

Secondly, the team struggles against some very common threats. Clefable, obviously, can shut down the team's 'uncompetitive' gameplan on its own, forcing it to play like conventional offense until it is eliminated or sufficiently weakened. Ferrothorn can only be handled by Lucario or Flamethrower Togekiss, and Lucario can be worn down very easily, especially if it is played with Garchomp as a partner. The team plays no hazard control, so Stealth Rock makes its life much more difficult. It struggles, as previously mentioned, against offensive teams in general, as it is difficult to dictate your gameplan against a faster team. Contrary to popular belief, however, Rain is a favorable matchup for Baton Pass - Kingdra can be traded off with Garchomp's Sash and generally cannot come in on any attacks, making it easier for a skilled Baton Pass player to set up checkmate than a comparable Rain player. The team has no switch-in to the common Gengar, and must attempt to sweep first if confronted by it. With perfect play, Baton Pass simply does not beat common builds of Stall, such as this frankly less competitive team: https://pokepast.es/bce1e153e8df21b4 (indeed, this team was built after two frustrating games against Gengar on Baton Pass), as it can never get through a healthy Clefable without extreme luck.

 

Thirdly, Baton Pass is not easy to play. It requires accurate calculation from Team Preview and, at the very least, a fundamental understanding of how the team works. Failure to identify your win condition in Team Preview is tantamount to losing. For example, leading Scolipede is almost always a mistake - if you do not win on the spot, you've given over two turns to your opponent while making no threats (Protect and Baton Pass), which your opponent can use more effectively - for example, by setting Stealth Rock and dealing significant damage to the Baton Pass recipient. Baton Pass's broken mechanics turn some otherwise forced wins into 50/50s. My own winrate the first season I played this team was quite abysmal, and I would expect similar for most others.

 

Lastly, it must be considered how far we are willing to go to defend a qualitative standard of 'competitiveness'. Anything involving luck is, by definition, uncompetitive - cheapening the value of prediction. OHKO moves are banned for that reason, but what about Focus Blast? Serene Grace? King's Rock? Air Slash? Hydro Pump? I've even lost to a Shadow Ball SpD drop in the past, should that be banned? If beating unprepared teams consistently is an issue, we must take a serious look at stall, which is capable of posting 90%+ winrates in the right hands, simply because there is nothing to be done unless the stall player makes a mistake or the opponent is explicitly prepared. I, personally, do not think the state of stall is an issue - in the same vein, I do not think Baton Pass beating unprepared players is an issue. Neither Baton Pass nor stall has forced an archetype out of the metagame - instead, both have demanded minor adjustments to contest them, which is in no way unhealthy.

 

Now, will Baton Pass be unhealthy in the future? Almost certainly, yes. Substitute, Magearna, Necrozma, and Z-Crystals, and a working Baton Pass will remove the necessity of carefully removing counters and weakening checks, and at that point, something will have to go. However, banning it now would be tantamount to banning Salamence because of Salamencite, or Mew because of Mewnium Z.

 

This is the wrong time and place for a Baton Pass ban, and there are far more powerful threats to address if there is truly a desire to shatter a healthy metagame using executive action because it is boring. There are still so many facets of this metagame that are insufficiently explored...

[C0mp]

I personally am on the fence, but leaning more toward a ban. I haven't played it often in PRO, but when I did encounter it, I struggled to prevent Scolipede from Baton Passing. The big issue is that Scolipede outspeeds most of the meta after a Protect and can outright kill the things that could potentially pressure it. It learns Earthquake which can kill Gengar, Chandelure, Excadrill, Heatran, Bisharp, etc. It can also learn Poison Jab and Megahorn which can kill/heavily damage things like Weavile, Tangrowth, Togekiss, Breloom, Alolan-Ninetales. Azumarill. So not only does Scolipede possess great utility but it also has big offensive power. Now let's think about the Baton Pass recipients. Based on what I've seen, a typical Baton Pass Team usually has a Manaphy, Togekiss, Kommo-O/Lucario/Excadrill and Espeon which are highly threatening once speed boosts are passed due to their ATK/SPATK-boosting moves. This means that the Baton Pass user has a wide variety of things to choose from depending on the situation. Manaphy doesn't have as good typing as Togekiss and seems to be more manageable with things like Unaware Clefable, Ferrothorn, Chansey (unless rain dance) being pretty common in the meta, but it can still pack a punch with the TG + 3 ATKS set. Excadrill can switch into fairies and obliterate Unaware Clefable with Mold Breaker and Swords Dance. Togekiss is weak to Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, but it is a huge threat having Serene Grace Air Slash and a crazy movepool of Roost, Heal Bell, Aura Sphere, Flamethrower, Dazzling Gleam, etc.. Kommo has Bulletproof meaning it can switch into Gyro Ball, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast with little issue and Dragon Dance is fairly threatening. Lucario has good coverage moves and priority, although it suffers from 4mss and a lack of bulk. Espeon is frail, but a bulky set of Calm Mind, Stored Power, Dazzling Gleam, Moonlight can be deadly and Magic Bounce means no Roar. They all have their own unique roles in the team and support each other pretty well. It's a tough call but I think it may just be too much to handle.

Edited May 12, 2020 by c0mp

[Evilprotagonist]

Baton pass team is the definition of "tempo". It work very well against slower teams because as pointed out many time above that if u play purely deffensive the baton user have the option of bringing in different stallbreakers to break through. Which many pointed out gave unfair tempo advantage for free. But here lays the key. The core of scoli-baton teams is that u need to ALWAYS have the tempo, always making switches until u get that sweep. The way to beat it is easy, u grab the tempo. If you get ahead in tempo and get your stealth rocks up then the baton usesr is literly hitting himself every turn. Every switch he make that dosnt grab the tempo back is literly ticking away his team. The weakness is clear, baton team usually got weak defog. If they run hazard removal it is a turn they completely give up tempo on. Which again comes back to my point. If baton team lose steam they lose control fast. So yes baton may seem oppresive when ahead, but just like any other HO its a double edged sword. Its just as hard to make a comeback if behind.

 

I fought against the "popular" baton scoli team many many times against many players. And not to brag but i got a very good record against them. And when i do lose most of the time i feel like i got rightfully outplayed (well except when togeflinch goes insane, got flinched17x inarow on my heatran once against mallteser that lucky b****astard). But at the end of the day its the most fun matchup in my opinion cause i actualy need to engage my brain into every turn. Win or lose ( i win most of the time!) i actualy feel like that game was worth my time.

 

The argument that speed boost make op pokemons more op is overblown. the counters that counter them still counter them unless they get 2-3 turns to set up before. A spedef or even a bold rotom watch still checks togekiss, av tangrowth, ferrothorn still comes in on manaphy,. Also keep in mind these mon also have to risk taking a attack comming in so again if you big brain it its literly shooting fish dropping into the barrel.

 

The argument of scoli can just come in and no brain click protect or a attack. Well thats on you if you just sit there doing nothing. Why not bring in cofagrigus on the atk and mummy his passive while gaining a turn for free? Put down some sweet toxic spike or pray that u hit will-of-miss on something. Nothing is free and every turn cost something, esp for baton users cause they need tempo like i mentioned before. A failed scouting protect turn can lead to hazard, which lead to hard decisions for baton users. Another thing is that scoli is heavily move restricted. You alrdy know that it has baton, and probably protect. which means that its cover is restricted. Once you know what move he got it can easily be your own set up fodder, everything goes 2 way!

 

And tbh at this point i forgot what else i was thinking. This was just purely brainstorm. Bottom liners is that i think banning baton is stupid and just restrict diversity for no reason. At the end of the day bad players will stay bad, good players will stay good. "abusing baton" wont be a short cut, if it is then man why did i struggle so hard before by not playing baton, silly me!

 

Everyday player complain about rain so op blablabla, stall so op balblabla, the flavor of the mounth is baton is so op blablabla cause its on the frontpage. I swear to serperior half these playing didnt even know what a baton team looks like before they saw this. There is nothing op about baton teams, the only thing op is the delution that you keep losing because ur opponent "abuse" op teams.. GIT GUD...hihi XD

 

PS: erm we are mostly referring to the scoli-pass version right? cause i based everything here on that team cause i think it is the most viable variant of baton passing. If im wrong and there are other factors u guys are discussing here then mb i didnt read 90% of the comments here. Its 3am in the morning what do you want from me!

 

PS2: And what do you mean you have to specific counter building for scoli baton? Rotom-wash lead literly put 4-5 out of a whole team in check. wisp beat scoli/lucario/, electrice check toge+mana,hydro for garchomp,

Edited May 12, 2020 by EvilProtagonist

[Y0da]

As someone who was initially leaning toward a blanket Baton Pass ban, I decided to keep an open mind and listen to both sides, and I must admit that the anti-ban side has provided more convincing arguments than the pro-ban side thus far. There is a lot of misinformation going on and I think that some good points have been made and should be acknowledged. It is unfortunate that I only started PvPing again in PRO while Baton Pass is banned, so I had to do a lot of research to try to make up for my lack of in-game experience with the move/playstyle, although I ran into it a lot on Showdown.

 

 

This is simply not true. Baton Pass is currently banned in ORAS OU and USUM OU and is even banned in many lower tiers. More and more tiers and previous generations are suspect testing Baton Pass. In 2019, USUM LC banned Baton Pass. It must also be said that banning or suspect testing Baton Pass in older generations, such as ADV OU and DPP OU, usually does not involve banning Baton Pass as a whole, but rather further restricting the currently implemented clauses. BW OU seems to be against a full ban of the move, although that thread and this one both show that the BW OU council may have acted against what the majority of players think by trying to impose the Shadow Tag ban, deeming trapping uncompetitive yet failing to explain why Magnet Pull has not been addressed in the BW OU metagame where it is arguably more problematic and certainly more common than Gothitelle. PRO does have some Gen 7 mechanics, but it is still weirdly trying to balance itself out between Gen 5 and Gen 6. I think that ORAS OU is the closest Smogon comparison, although I think that such comparisons can be dangerous sometimes. Pokémon Revolution Online is not Showdown and does not have to blindly follow Smogon's rules. In ORAS OU, Baton Pass underwent a lot of changes: it was first restricted to 3 Baton Pass users, but problems kept arising, so it was then narrowed down to 1 Baton Pass user, which was still not enough to prevent newer issues; the complex Baton Pass clause in its final form ultimately stated that there can only be 1 Baton Pass user that cannot pass speed with other stats. So many complex clauses were put in place to attempt to preserve a playstyle that became problematic whenever it picked up in usage. Yet again, Baton Pass teams managed to remain an issue because they always found a way to circumvent the implemented restrictions. NJNP used Lansat Berry Scolipede with Scope Lens Sniper Kingdra to prove why Baton Pass is inherently broken and will always be abused to get easy wins. You can be the judges: NJNP's 1st replay, NJNP's 2nd replay, and NJNP's 3rd replay. Yes, PRO does not have Substitute, which is a big component of Baton Pass. Yes, there are several issues hindering its efficiency. However, who is to say that someone will not find an intricate way to abuse Baton Pass in its current format? How long will we have to wait until someone finally breaks Baton Pass, thus causing even more outrage? If someone manages to find a way to do that in the future, it will actually be proof that Baton Pass is currently ban-worthy. I am not going to discuss the other part of the message I quoted because being able to use Mega Rayquaza against Mega Rayquaza (and other examples are endless) is evidently no proof that Mega Rayquaza can be healthy in PvP. If something is deemed ban-worthy (meaning either broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive), we should not be inciting players to use it as a countermeasure.

 

So, is Baton Pass broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive? Well, this thread is an interesting read, although it mostly pertains to Smogon. I will summarize its main points for you, but please feel free to check it out. Smogon/Showdown uses skill as the main way to gauge someone's worth in competitive Pokémon. Yes, funnily enough, Pokémon happens to be one of the least competitive games due to all the luck- and RNG-based interactions. However, that is not an excuse for not trying to maximize skill-reliant match-ups and minimize skill-less mechanics as much as possible. As such, there are clauses regarding evasion, sleep, and whatnot. There are also Pokémon and ability bans. What is the definition of uncompetitive? Based on that thread, uncompetitive elements "reduce the effect of player choice/interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant." We then have some examples of uncompetitive features: "This can be match-up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match-up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough." What about broken then? Broken elements "are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant," but we also have the important following note in bold characters: "While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter/check component." Yes, an uncompetitive component of PvP does not have to be broken to warrant a ban. And what does unhealthy mean? Unhealthy elements "are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit 'skillful play' to a large extent." It is important to understand that these words are not mutually exclusive, yet not necessarily interchangeable. Something deemed ban-worthy can be uncompetitive and broken, but it only needs to satisfy one of those definitions. What makes Baton Pass inherently uncompetitive? When players discussed this on Smogon (cf. this thread), they did not mention any specific Pokémon (e.g., Manaphy), but allow me to share some of their thoughts:

 

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Out of fairness, I included the last statement, which is more moderate and does not deem all of Baton Pass to be uncompetitive. However, as proven in ORAS OU, Baton Pass as a whole was still considered to be uncompetitive, which ultimately led to its ban in 2018:

 

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The main culprit? Scolipede. Why not just ban Scolipede? Well, because there is no point in preserving a move that has to be almost restricted to nothingness to keep being used! It already is a shadow of its former self! Some people even suggested preserving DryPass (using Baton Pass without passing any stats, simply to switch out, sometimes also to avoid Pursuit). Why should we bother with an inherently uncompetitive feature of the game? If Scolipede were to be banned, someone might find another Baton Pass (ab)user. I said might, not will. Who knows? The move is uncompetitive by nature, so it will remain problematic as long as it is allowed. Here is an interesting Reddit thread explaining why Baton Pass is uncompetitive:

 

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I will mostly talk about Speed Boost Scolipede, which seems to be the most commonly used Baton Pass user. Baton Pass in PRO surely uses Pokémon that all teams should naturally be prepared for regardless, right? To an extent, yes, but let's keep in mind that preparing for Manaphy is not the same as preparing for +1 Manaphy, which then outspeeds and KOs anything that would otherwise be able to outspeed it and check it (e.g., Serperior). Defensively, you might think that this does not make a difference at all, but it definitely does. If someone is running Ferrothorn on a Manaphy-weak team, there are good chances that it is running Power Whip to be able to beat Manaphy. This puts the Baton Pass user in an advantageous situation from the get-go, as they will be able to play around that and potentially guess Ferrothorn's coverage and switch-ins. This also puts incredible pressure on the player facing the Baton Pass team, because they know that the Baton Pass player should know that Ferrothorn most likely carries Power Whip. If the Baton Pass player switches out to a Fighting-type or something that can deal with Ferrothorn expecting it to switch into Manaphy, the other player can predict that and ultimately not go to Ferrothorn. But what if the Baton Pass player decides to Tail Glow instead of switching out? Then the other player is now against a speedy Manaphy with a Tail Glow buff and Ferrothorn has to switch into it and take 2 hits instead of 1. Skill can thus easily be taken out of the equation. Should that player have gone to Ferrothorn first regardless? Well, in that case, they would have lost momentum had the Baton Pass player chosen to double switch to another Pokémon. Why didn't Ferrothorn switch into Scolipede on the turn Manaphy was expected to receive the Speed boost? But what if another Pokémon was given that boost? What then? If Ferrothorn switches into Manaphy, the Baton Pass player has more freedom to switch out than his opponent getting caught in the unfavorable situation of switching Ferrothorn into a Fighting-type. Baton Pass might not lose right away because of a misprediction, while the team facing Baton Pass will get behind and have fewer chances, if any at all, to recover against a Baton Pass team constantly pressuring the opponent into potentially making another mistake. Can't Ferrothorn kill Manaphy anyway? Well, that is assuming that Manaphy will not switch out and already took sufficient prior damage to put it in range of Power Whip, which does not OHKO it. Manaphy might also be running a bulkier spread than usual, thus ensuring that it can somewhat comfortably survive Power Whip. And can't something else revenge kill Manaphy if Ferrothorn dies? That is assuming that you have something faster than +1 Manaphy that also happens to be able to do enough damage to kill it. Choice Band Dragonite's Extreme Speed does an impressive 50% at best to uninvested Manaphy. Shouldn't all teams have a secondary check to something as prevalent and strong as Manaphy? Possibly, yes, but it might now be slower than +1 Manaphy. Why is Manaphy being used as an example? Simply because everyone keeps talking about it pushing Baton Pass over the edge. Why don't people use stall (and more specifically Unaware Calm Mind Clefable) to beat a speedy and bulky Manaphy? Because they might not want to and, rightfully so, should have more than a few options to choose from. Why don't people start to specifically prepare for Baton Pass teams or at least the most commonly used Baton Pass Pokémon, which also happen to be good on their own? Because those Pokémon have fewer (most notably offensive) checks if they receive a Speed boost and, as such, their typical checks might no longer be able to properly deal with them. I mentioned Serperior for Manaphy earlier, but there are other offensive countermeasures, which can be popular or unpopular, such as Choice Scarf Magnezone, Raikou, and even Gengar. Should people start putting a Choice Scarf on Gengar because it is not a bad option against non-Baton Pass teams and can still better the team's match-up against Baton Pass teams? Should they also use 1, 2, or even 3 priority users to ensure that Speed boost recipients can be properly revenge killed? Doesn't Quiver Dance Volcarona freely set up against Speed Boost Scolipede and still outspeed all Baton Pass recipients? Having to run specific Pokémon, abilities, moves, or items to counter something as uncommon as Baton Pass is not exactly the sign of a healthy metagame. Doing so might (and most likely will) put you at a disadvantage against more common playstyles. Even then, you still won't get an automatic win against that one Baton Pass team that you might go against every once in a while. My opinion does not change when it comes to other inherently uncompetitive features. Do I think that having to run Shed Shell on a Pokémon that benefits from other options is uncompetitive? Yes, I do. Do I think that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive? Yes. Do I think that being able to set up on Magnezone once it has killed something makes this less uncompetitive? No, we were also able to use set-up moves against Dugtrio and Gothitelle. That did not make them less broken. Do I think that Magnezone trapping fewer Pokémon than Dugtrio and Gothitelle makes it less uncompetitive? Absolutely not! Smogon banned Gothita, Diglett, and Trapinch by banning Arena Trap as a whole. Those Pokémon trapped virtually nothing of relevance in comparison to Magnezone. Do I think that Serene Grace is uncompetitive? Yes, even though there are only 2 viable users of the move in PvP (Togekiss and Jirachi). Do I think that King's Rock is uncompetitive? Yes. Why hasn't Smogon done anything about any of that then? I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. Cloyster's King's Rock set has been gaining traction. I know that many people on Smogon suggested banning King's Rock and Magnezone in the past. Usually, no action is taken unless something gains a lot of popularity and becomes a bigger issue in high elo and/or in tournaments. This happened with Baton Pass every single time until it was eventually banned altogether. Will players surprise their opponents by using Baton Pass in PRO's Showdown tours? Why not? It is certainly more efficient and less dysfunctional on Showdown. Why don't we wait until Substitute is coded or more powerful abusers are added or found? Essentially, this means that we should wait for Baton Pass' inherent uncompetitiveness to emerge in a blatantly undeniable fashion. Baton Pass will then still be the same; it will just be able to be used in conjunction with new tools that are undeniably problematic. Is it too soon to discuss banning Baton Pass? Well, not really, because administrators brought up this issue and, as such, it deserves to be discussed. Does banning the move have to be the inevitable outcome? No. We are not Smogon. PRO is not Showdown. Not only do we not have to ban Baton Pass now, but we also don't have to ban it later. Yes, we are using Showdown for many tours, but we are using a format that allows anything to be tailored according to PRO's rules! Is Baton Pass currently broken? No. Is it currently unhealthy? No. Can it become broken or unhealthy? Yes, in the future. Is it inherently uncompetitive? Absolutely. It can still be brought against players in ladder tournaments just to unsettle them in an attempt to unexpectedly get an easy/free win against them with a playstyle that they probably never specifically prepare for and should not have to prepare for in the first place. And no, good teams should not naturally be built to handle Baton Pass teams; they should be able to deal with relevant and more common playstyles instead. The issue here is that Baton Pass teams do not just constitute a cheese strategy. They are serious teams that are capable of consistently winning matches on their own, and not just because of the surprise factor. Let's maybe refocus on discussing banning Baton Pass from PRO's Showdown tournaments.

 

 

 

How can a move not be OU? Scolipede might not have sufficient usage to be OU, but it was UUBL in both ORAS and USUM, meaning it was also not OU by usage. That did not stop Smogon from banning Baton Pass. Something can have low usage and still be deemed ban-worthy. Shadow Tag Gothitelle was also UUBL in Gen 5... until it got banned. Do the people who use Baton Pass always win every game with ease? Of course not. Do those same people still auto-win some games because of favorable match-ups? Yes! Does Baton Pass allow teams to have more favorable match-ups than other playstyles? I believe so, mainly due to how unprepared teams are to face Baton Pass. Do I prepare for Baton Pass teams when I build teams? Never! Should I? Maybe, but I should not have to! How do you prepare for the combination of King's Rock Cloyster, Serene Grace Togekiss, and Serene Grace Jirachi? Can you even prepare for something uncompetitive that attempts to make the match as skill-less as possible in order to let luck and RNG decide its outcome? Is Baton Pass really skill-less? Baton Pass players can still play really well and make smart plays, but can also sometimes Baton Pass once to a Pokémon and automatically win from the get-go because Baton Pass teams can patch up one of the weaknesses of top-tier threats like Manaphy and Togekiss. Do Baton Pass teams manage to 6-0 frequently? No, but the fact that they can do so while also circumventing some of the Baton Pass recipients' usual checks proves that the move is uncompetitive by nature. Moreover, I certainly don't think that any playstyle or move should be kept for the sake of diversity just to preserve less than 5% of teams.

 

 

 

If we followed Smogon's tiering policy before Baton Pass ever became an issue in PRO, why are we not following through on all aspects of Smogon's Baton Pass ban? Everyone knew all along that PRO had different mechanics than Showdown. The biggest, in this case, is the lack of Substitute. There are also other differences. Yet, I don't recall people disagreeing with the implementation of the complex clause that Smogon had in place (only having a single Baton Pass user not being able to Baton Pass speed and other stats). If we chose to copy Smogon's rules, why did we not follow through? Is it because we should have never tried to replicate what Smogon did and, instead, let PRO be its own independent game? A bit too late for that now.

 

 

 

Sorry to cherry-pick this part of your good post. Yes, Togekiss relies on flinches, but it also has a manageable speed tier. Would Togekiss become unbearable if it had 350 speed? I think so. And Baton Pass just happens to be able to patch up its poor speed, thus lowering the number of its usual checks, which would otherwise outspeed it and KO it. Togekiss also has respectable bulk, especially if it can run a more defensive set thanks to potentially receiving a Speed buff. This means that it can also set up Nasty Plot and accentuate the uncompetitive nature of Serene Grace flinches by doing a lot of damage and being harder to revenge kill. Being able to win games thanks to flinches is arguably uncompetitive, but something can usually outspeed Togekiss and force it out, thus perhaps recovering momentum and still having some sort of say in the outcome of the match. A speedy, bulky Togekiss can sometimes sweep an entire team if it relies on flinches while also being faster than everything else. Failing to flinch once will most likely not result in Togekiss' death, so it can just resume being uncompetitive afterward. The replay that you posted is very interesting because it shows how good players have adapted to the lack of Substitute. I am not saying that Scolipede does not need Substitute; I just think that running two coverage options instead of one actually worked in your favor in that specific match-up, although you also outplayed your opponent (particularly toward the end). I must, however, comment that, while coupling Baton Pass with Aurora Veil is an original idea, it remains an attempt to exacerbate Baton Pass' inherent uncompetitiveness by circumventing more of its recipients' weaknesses and abusing all available tools (in this case, Aurora Veil) to ensure Baton Pass' maximum efficiency. This is not to say that the combination of Baton Pass and Aurora Veil necessarily pushes Baton Pass over the edge. It is simply yet another attempt to break the playstyle (by merging it with another potentially problematic one). Eventually, someone might succeed in doing so.

 

 

 

I actually somewhat disagree with this. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Speed passing is the primary culprit as of right now. However, why should we further restrict an already complex enough clause? There have already been several restrictions and clauses on Smogon. Every single time, people thought that Baton Pass would never become a problem again. They were wrong! Someone somehow managed to abuse its inherently uncompetitive nature in spite of the increasingly complex bans. If we ban Speed passing, we should ban Baton Pass altogether instead of trying to preserve some niche, irrelevant strategies that no one currently uses and that someone might eventually figure out a way to abuse. What then? Are we going to move from clause #4 to clause #5? Are people ultimately going to ask for Baton Pass to be kept just for DryPass' sake? This is unprecedented! This is a move! We are trying to alter Baton Pass' inherent properties. Either keep it or remove it altogether. Let's not make the same mistake as Smogon by introducing even more unnecessary, complex bans.

 

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Ditto should never be anyone's primary countermeasure. Why? Because high Ditto usage is indicative of an unhealthy metagame, which people noticed in SS OU prior to the Dynamax ban.

 

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Baton Pass is currently banned in ORAS OU. It was banned in retrospect because it was still deemed uncompetitive in spite of the Magearna-less and Necrozma-less Gen 6 OU environment and Gale Wings did not get nerfed until Gen 7.

 

 

 

Arena Trap was eventually banned and Baton Pass was never reconsidered for a re-test. The fact that Baton Pass was banned before Arena Trap speaks volumes about Baton Pass' uncompetitive nature. The council determined that the immediate issue was Baton Pass, not Arena Trap. The former was quick banned, while the latter was suspect tested a few months later. In ORAS OU, Baton Pass was banned after Arena Trap, which proves that it managed to remain an issue despite not being able to abuse Dugtrio any longer. The lack of Substitute definitely has to be taken into consideration, but I thought I would comment on the Arena Trap part. I actually agree with many points that you made. Serene Grace Togekiss is inherently uncompetitive, but so is Magnet Pull Magnezone. You may generate as much pressure as you want against them, they will do whatever they can to ensure that the outcome of the game is in RNG's hands. You can play extremely carefully against Magnezone, yet somehow still get trapped if you misplay or mispredict (or even if your opponent misplays and gets you to misplay as a result). You can also be patient and careful against Dugtrio and Gothitelle or run Shed Shell to prevent being trapped. Using Choice Scarf Togekiss has no justification other than wanting to outspeed and flinch down checks to slower variants. Even without Choice Scarf, Serene Grace Togekiss remains uncompetitive and, as such, will logically find itself being used on other uncompetitive playstyles (namely Baton Pass) in an attempt to harness their full uncompetitive potential.

 

I just want everyone to keep an open mind. I certainly could have said a lot about why Baton Pass can be kept for now if we really insist on delaying the inevitable, but others already made brilliant statements regarding that. Maybe I am wrong, but maybe you are, too. Let's all listen to opposing arguments instead of shrugging them off before giving them a chance. Then, we will have a healthy discussion instead of a heated debate.

 

i didnt bother reading the whhole text you typed,honestly,no offense but from the little ive seen it seems that you dont really understand how this game works or is suppose to be working and thats not a personal attack nor an offense.what you replied to me ive typed it endless times,paired with many more things obviously you didnt bother reading.baton got banned in gen 7 btw if that means something to you.i made another post as well,feel free to check it .bbut what youve said i ive said it before anyone alse and in a larger extend as well

[Autobots]

If Baton pass is banned since it is not allowed in ou gen 7 it might imply pro is following gen 7 ou format in that case kyurem black should be allowed to pvp and landorus sheerforce must be banned

[Gleipnirkurea]

I haven't been here for a few months (passed account to a good friend, then returned back about two days ago) anyways, the thing about speed boost and baton pass, why not just ban the usage of the move with a speed boost ability pokèmon? (If someone already said something about this; sorry I only read the post OP and the 2nd post. If it was banned in that sense, wouldn't people not use it?

 

If theres more about this than speed boost + baton pass please let me know because I'm kinda clueless when it comes to PvP, other than the double sleep thing.