PVP Feedback - Baton Pass

[Shinohara]

IMPORTANT - READ IT BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE

Any kind of taunt, disrespect, insult, attack and in general deplorable/inappropriate behavior is strictly forbidden.

This is a topic aimed at creating a productive discussion between staff and players regard the Baton Pass topic since all of us, staff and players, want the best of the game. I do want people to be able to maintain a civil attitude while discussing. Due to this announcement, where I am clearly telling you what to avoid, any violation of the above said things will just lead to punishments.

 

Needless to say, even if I am sure that people can easily get to this conclusion by themselves, the following stuff does not reflect the thought of a single person but it's simply the reason that has lead to the current situation.

 

Another really important thing to mention is that the opinion of everyone is important and has the same value, it goes for community and staff. Being part of the staff does not give our opinion an higher value and does not make it stronger/better than the one of any other player in any way, so do not hesitate to share your opinion for any reason. We value and respect the opinion of every member of our community, regardless if the feedback is negative or positive, as long as the intention while giving that opinion/feedback is the one to improve the game making it better for everyone and not the one to just trash-talk the game. We are not perfect, we can make errors as we did in the past and might do in the future, but at the end of the day a game is nothing without its community and we really can improve/learn by our mistakes/do better with your help/feedback.

 

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-[/hr]

 

On April 18, 2020, the Staff Team announced on the PRO Discord.

 

Greetings everyone

I'll keep it short and sweet. For the period of the next PvP season we'll be holding a test.

During this test, the move Baton Pass will be prohibited from Ranked Battles. This means that bringing a Pokemon with Baton Pass in its moveset to Ranked Queue will not be possible starting May 1st.

During the period, we will be reviewing community behaviors as well as community feedback. Feedback provided will be reviewed, but the deciding factor will be in the hands of the Staff Team. Please keep in mind that the ban is a TEST and not a permanent change unless it's announced otherwise.

 

Due to the change done in the announcement, we have made this thread for our community so members can provide feedback regarding the changes made.

 

Now to simply bring up why the move itself was banned, we'll keep it short and simple

• The move's controversial unpredictability that makes the difficulty of countering opponents is superbly rare.
  
• Restrictive team building in the case of an opponent have/haven't a Baton Pass Team.
  
• Complex bans to assist the curve regarding the move would be pointless and difficult in the case of moderation. (Ex. PVP Rules)
  

For the full text, please check the spoiler below:

 

 

The move Baton Pass has been controversial for quite a while, not only on PRO but also on Smogon/Showdown. It was banned from all Smogon single-battle tiers in Generation 7, which is the generation that PRO's mechanics are based on.

Baton Pass allows its user to pass an ""unlimited"" amount of stat changes to any other member of the user's party. However, with the current Baton Pass Clause, players are not allowed to pass Speed in conjunction with any other stats.

Worth to say here that Blaziken Speed Boost was also banned as being too good and, considering its move pool, hard to bring down. It was a good Speed Passer, aside everything else. Talonflame's ability being nerfed was a crucial factor for Blaziken looking really hard to be countered/dealth with, even though it had a few answers, due Speed boost, its move-pool and maybe Swords Dance.

 

Controversial Pokemon like Manaphy and other Pokemon like Togekiss or Espeon can restrict team building very much. The difficulty of predicting what happens after a Baton Pass is what makes it dangerous. Furthermore, Baton Pass restrict the Team Building due to the flexibility that it offesers certain sweepers. That's just one of the example, but it's the most common.

 

Many people say "What does the opponent do while Scolipede passes Speed?". How hard is to click Protect and Baton Pass or attack if opponent brings in a Pokemon weak to Scolipede, like Clefable, because they predicted Baton Pass to Manaphy (making an example)? The hard thing is to know which Pokemon will receive. Good built Baton Pass teams do not have only one dangerous receiver; some have even more than 2. So what can you do there? Predict. Is predictions an argument when we are discussing about clauses and Rules? It's not.

Let's take Togekiss too. With 120 estimated of Defence EV invested and full HP EV invested, Togekiss survives Bullet Punch from Choice Band Adamant full Attack EV Technician Scizor. This EV set is common for Togekiss in Baton Pass teams. With great move pool that can cover many different types and even Nasty Plot, Togekiss with +1 Speed restricts checks and revenge killers dramatically.

 

While these are the most common problems because of Togekiss and Manaphy great bulkiness, move pool and type, the real problem with this move is that it opens to tens or even hundreds of different vulnerabilities. It would be easier if the passer could only pass to one Pokemon and not to any of the Pokemon in the party.

 

In PRO's Ladder Tournament, which is played on Pokemon Showdown, more moves and abilities work correctly. People who use Baton Pass there are people who achieved Top 25 on the previous season's Ranked Ladder, which means that they play at a relatively high and even skill level.

Counter-teams that work against Baton Pass are weak to almost all other teams.

A complex ban on Togekiss + Manaphy + Baton Pass is not an option and will not be considered because reports would require video evidence. This is not reasonable because most players do not record their ladder matches. Furthermore, our opinion is that the move has always caused problems, so it would be better to ban it as a whole.

 

 

 

With that, you are free to discuss below.

Edited May 1, 2020 by Shinohara

[Saicharan]

Baton Pass is just not restricted to one player, it's for both players out there. So its fair to say both teams can use them in the way the want. If some uses boosted Togekiss then this that blah blah, the other guy can also do it, maybe even better it by boosting it on a different Pokemon or can come up with an epic counter, and that is what battle is all about. Besides baton pass is still used in OU battles in smogon, which basically means there ain't nothing "broke game" about it.

[Gore]

The fact that baton pass gives speed buff from u-turn and volt switch puts this ability into the bugged category, with this said, this is a bugged move that gives advantage to the user which means it should be in the banned moves category until it works properly.

[Zytrax]

Just remove legendaries from pvp. One of the reasons why Batton pass is busted is manaphy. Legendaries have higher base stats and shouldnt be in pvp. Without manaphy heatran and stuff this game would bring more variety.

[Luohan]

In my opinion the rule we had yet (Speed or other stats only) was a really good idea and I would prefer to keep it as it was. There is not so much players using baton pass and seeing something else than rain, stall or rng based teams (scarf toge, 5x paralyse) is a nice thing.

 

A small nerf for a speed baton pass teams would be a Lunar dance addition, making Trick Room teams more viable. I haven't seen any good TR team without a good lunar dance Creselia...

 

Nevertheless, I like the 1-season test idea, and hope we can have more season like this with some specific rules, like a no-legendary season, scarf togekiss ban, season, no weather changing abilities season, etc.

 

/off top: where are word quests gone?

Edited May 1, 2020 by Luohan

[Boghald]

I couldn't agree more with Luohan, nothing else to add but just remember that moves Baton Pass, U-turn and Volt Switch don't work properly as you have to choose the pokemon that will switch-in before the move is used rather than after it.

[Napolion22n]

i think batton pass should be banned. there is a reasson this is banned from the other games showdown etc.

[Xdzin]

the idea of banning a strategy or move by season is interesting but about the baton pass:

 

Wall Pokémon are already widely used because there is no substitute in the game, without a baton pass, so the use of the wall would greatly increase, that is, without the baton pass, it would further saturate the game with the pokemon wall, making the some tedious frustrating experience. pvp.

 

In addition, the baton pass has its advantages, as do the weather teams and trick room, among others.

 

/ off top: where are word quests gone?

[Allsmell]

Permantly ban passing speed(in all situations), allow passing all other stats imo

[Qeight]

I'll just give me quick thoughts on this subject (I wasn't part of the discussion in staff as I wasn't in staff when this happened).

First and foremost this decision was not reached by "my" PvP Council as the PvP Council never made it out of development given I quit staff for a few months & it was my project.

The decision was reached by all sorts of staff members in our staff discord in a channel called "PvP Council" however that name is a little misleading, the skills from our staff range from top tier players to bottom-feeders like me.

 

I am a numbers kind of guy when it comes to bans, meta changes and such things given my knowledge about PvP is restricted to when I laddered early on, on the Yellow Server.

I would like to think that the skill cap back then was much higher, given my rating placements back then (520/521) would in todays time be #1. In that time things like Talonflame dominated the ladder, it was basically a free win, the meta played so different than what it is now.

Taking skill out of the equation entirely going forward.

 

Cames provides us with the most used Pokemon data for every season:

https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/142666-url

 

Some numbers:

• The most used Baton-Passer for Speed (Scolipede) has not reach the threshold of 5-7% on any Server in the last 6 months. It never appeared in Top25.
  
• Manaphy appeared 3 times in the Top25 usage statistic in the last 6 months.
  
  • 18. Manaphy 2971 9% 52% - #Silver November 2019
    
  • 24. Manaphy 2220 6% 56% - #Silver December 2019
    
  • 25. Manaphy 3038 6% 53% - #Silver March 2020
    

  [*]Togekiss appeared appeared 12 times in the Top25 usage statistic in the last 6 months. This is no surprise, I reached ladder with Togekiss in 2016. Lovely Pokemon everyone loves it.

  • 9. Togekiss 3966 16% 52% - #Gold November 2019
    
  • 11. Togekiss 4613 14% 48% - #Silver November 2019
    
  • 10. Togekiss 3756 15% 51% - #Gold December 2019
    
  • 10. Togekiss 4158 12% 49% - #Silver December 2019
    
  • 9. Togekiss 4381 17% 53% - #Gold January 2020
    
  • 12. Togekiss 4504 12% 48% - #Silver January 2020
    
  • 9. Togekiss 3575 16% 54% - #Gold February 2020
    
  • 9. Togekiss 4832 14% 49% - #Silver February 2020
    
  • 9. Togekiss 5230 18% 52% - #Gold March 2020
    
  • 10. Togekiss 6175 13% 49% - #Silver March 2020
    
  • 11. Togekiss 4854 14% 50% - #Gold April 2020
    
  • 14. Togekiss 6168 12% 49% - #Silver April 2020
    

  [*]PVP Season Results, April 2020

  [*]Silver Server

  • Out of the Top25, 3 people played with a Speedboost Scolipede.
    
    • The first one played it once and won. Manaphy was in the team. Had Baton Pass.
      
    • The second one played with it twice and won twice. Had Togekiss both times. Had Baton Pass.
      
    • The third one played with it seven times and won six & lost one. 3/7 were with Baton Pass on Scoli, he won two, lost one. Togekiss was on all 3 Baton Pass teams.
      

    [*]Two people popped up a few times that played Scoli with Baton Pass, both have not reached Top50 in rating.

  [*]Gold Server

  • Out of the Top25, 6 people played with a Speedboost Scolipede.
    
    • There are 4 people who used it as a main team for most of the season, they had a mix of Togekiss and Manaphys.
      
    • There is one guy who used it 3 times and won 3 times, he used a Togekiss in the team once.
      
    • There is one guy who used it once and lost, there was a Togekiss in the team.
      
    • There is one guy who used it once without Baton Pass, had a Togekiss in the team.
      

   

  So my conclusion just based on numbers is really simple, it shouldn't be banned at all. The people who used it as a main team are also players who are naturally good at PvP, several Top25 finished, Tournament finishes etc. It didn't matter that they had H.A Scoli with Baton Pass.

   

  I hear people saying there is a bug with Speedbost when you swap into it from a Pokemon with U-Turn/Volt-Switch that you get the Speed for free, on the same argument you can say that any Pokemon with Intimidate cripples Scoli since it can't pass speed and another stat.

   

  PRO is not Showdown/Smogon, we should never treat it that way. I have disregarded most of these complaints when I was still Moderator Lead because exactly this reason.

  It is banned here and there, who cares. PRO is somewhere stuck between coded stuff from Gen5, Pokemon from Gen6, mechanics from Gen7. We don't have so much important stuff for actual competitive PvP and you all want to ban something that is barely used, sometimes used by god tier players who are already good and can ladder without it?

   

  I had the PvP Council in mind because I wanted to give players what they wanted but most people don't even know what they want or PvP, people who backhanded complain in Admins DMs or on PRO Discord are the ones who haven't played the game in months. It saddens me that those people even have a voice, they shouldn't. They don't play but ask for bans when majority of the people don't play it. It is a shame.

   

  Anyway, the numbers above from the PvP logs might be a little off because of logging issues from time to time but nothing major. It should still be fairly accurate.

   

  Best wishes,

  Q8