PVP Feedback - Landorus

[Coono]

I usually dont like banning many things at all (ditto, dugtrio, and blazekin are reasonable), but this one like those mentioned is an easy call. He's uber tier, end of story.

 

I dont think theres anyway you can justify banning Darkrai but keeping this. Lando-T should 100% stay though.

[Momozibang]

I think we might forget about legendary first, and consider more of poke abilities and moves to be coded because pvp getting boring since all the meta and line up of most player are the same, what u will found on match up non other than chansey,ferro,rotom and 70% of the player i found 6 tank stalling every of my poke and the game becomes straight forward attacking no setup and strategies..

 

I think all the complain comes from the player who likes to bold calm everything and not to die losing.. no offense.. peace love pro

[Coono]

I think it shouldnt be banned, could change the meta and he could be outspeeded easly by ice moves OHKOing him.

 

"He has a weakness" is not a valid argument, every poke does (ok ok except elektross but hes not anywhere near this stratosphere and we all know it)

[Senrosia]

Also, staff is not looking for "Ban because is forbidden in showdown" comments, we want actual reasons (why it should be banned or why not, with sceneries for example). Like some persons did.

[Jorogumo]

I would like to specify that I am in favor of a Landorus ban. Now that I got that out of the way, I would like to mention a few things. Do not blindly follow Smogon. Why? Because, by that logic, Greninja should also be banned as it was in the Uber tier in ORAS OU and was only made more bearable in USUM OU thanks to new additions such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and whatnot. This is an important point because following Smogon entails banning Greninja and only unbanning it in the future. I would also like to remind all our Smogon lovers that Greninja was suspect tested before Landorus in ORAS OU. In fact, Greninja received more pro-ban votes than Landorus did. PRO was able to adapt to Greninja, which is still extremely strong on paper, yet somehow keeps underperforming. There are various reasons for this, such as the priority spam, but this is not a post about Greninja. I only brought it up to showcase why PRO is inherently different than Showdown and should abide by its own rules. "Smogon banned it, therefore it should be banned in PRO" is a moot point. Can you tell me why you think Landorus should be banned? There are certainly several pro-ban arguments that are applicable to PRO. However, I would like to tell you guys why it should not be banned and let you figure out why you so adamantly want it banned.

 

ABR gave some good anti-ban arguments during the Landorus suspect test. In PRO, Landorus has the potential to beat all of its checks, with the exception of Cresselia, but is unable to beat all of them at the same time. In this, Landorus is somewhat similar to Greninja and Manaphy. It does not have a 4MSS since it can still effectively do its job with the moves that it picks. What do you run on Landorus? There are so many sets! Earth Power is mandatory, but the other options are so varied: Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Psychic, Hidden Power Ice, Knock Off, Rock Polish, Calm Mind, etc. On Showdown, everyone was able to use and abuse a perfect Landorus with HP Ice and 331 speed (which is above the critical 328-speed tier). How many people have a good Landorus with HP Ice? Without HP Ice, which is hard to get, Landorus is prone to losing to Gliscor, Landorus-T, and many more threats. In general, depending on its set, Landorus-T can be easily revenge killed (especially if it chooses to run Calm Mind over Rock Polish) or even checked by the likes of Skarmory, Tornadus-T, Gliscor, Chansey, Latios/Latias, Gyarados, Slowking, Cresselia, etc. Can it beat all of them (minus Cresselia)? Yes, of course, but it is unable to beat all of them at once! Scout before attempting to check Landorus with your Gliscor or Chansey. On top of that, it is not easy to get Landorus in for free with the way that U-turn and Volt Switch work in PRO. Due to how rarely used Landorus is, players might not necessarily always prepare for it. You also have to choose between Landorus and Landorus-T, since you are unable to use both. However, the lack of preparation for Landorus is not a pro-ban argument. Why? Because Landorus is not overcentralizing to an unhealthy extent; many of its checks are naturally used on several teams and will remain highly viable long after Landorus gets the chop.

 

Do you know what is actually quite overcentralizing in PRO at the moment? Manaphy. That is something you have to be specifically prepared for in order to avoid getting 6-0'd. Power Whip Ferrothorn, Unaware Clefable, Chansey, priority users, and faster threats are all increasingly common. Yet, Manaphy is able to beat all those threats with the right coverage: HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Rain Dance for Chansey, maybe Mystic Water and a Modest nature for most Unaware Clefable sets, barring perhaps the uncommon Calm Unaware set, etc. Somewhat similarly to Landorus, Manaphy is able to beat all its checks, but cannot beat them all at once.

 

Despite everything I just said, I am in favor of a Landorus ban. I have read and researched enough to make up my own opinion on the matter. Does it mean that I am unable to acknowledge arguments that do not align with what I think? No, absolutely not! We should not be too Manichean or too categorical. In Landorus' case, I believe that the pro-ban arguments far outweigh the anti-ban arguments. This is why it should be banned, in my opinion. But do all of you know what the valid pro-ban arguments are? Have you even seen enough of Landorus in PvP to make such a definitive pro-ban decision?

[Amaske]

If Blaziken is banned because he is in UBER

Then Landorus Incarnate Should also be banned !!

His hidden ability makes him so overpowered which will result in OU pokemons getting useless

[Novus]

Greetings everyone,

I want to state a few things to clarify the reason why we did this:

• Of course, we want to see the community's opinion on the pokemon. Mainly see the real problem, if its the pokemon itself whats broken or just the hidden ability.

• We are well aware thats its banned in showdown, but we want to differentiate our meta from the aforementioned platform.

• Find a way to a new way to test future additions, a suspect test of sort. As you may see we are just starting with them so they come pretty bare, we want to improve this.

 

With all due respect, the current policy with regard to PvP has no basis in suspect tests and bears almost no relation to the concept. Suspect tests are conducted to gather information on the Pokemon, move, item, or ability in question. Banning Baton Pass before any consideration is not a suspect test. Asking if a Pokemon that has been available for two weeks but is difficult to access (reroll tickets + ability capsule) should be banned is not a suspect test. There has never been a suspect test on PRO, because half the voters in any given test have never played with nor against the thing being tested. There needs to be a real mechanism for suspect testing, preferably one which artificially inflates the usage of the topic in question - as the things the community at large consider broken are inaccessible to many.

 

If staff prefer to continue to manage the metagame by decree, that is perfectly fine, but neither this nor other recent actions have resembled a suspect test at all.

We are still at pretty primitive steps in the matter, however we strive to improve this for future testings. Mainly a way to allow players to freely suspect test without affecting the economy. I appreciate this sort of feedback as it lets us knows the flaws of what we are doing, we will try to seek a way to patch this.

 

Please follow the smoogon rules^^

Again, we want to differentiate our meta from Smogon. If we are just a copypaste, where would be the individuality of PRO Meta?

 

I would like to specify that I am in favor of a Landorus ban. Now that I got that out of the way, I would like to mention a few things. Do not blindly follow Smogon. Why? Because, by that logic, Greninja should also be banned as it was in the Uber tier in ORAS OU and was only made more bearable in USUM OU thanks to new additions such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and whatnot. This is an important point because following Smogon entails banning Greninja and only unbanning it in the future. I would also like to remind all our Smogon lovers that Greninja was suspect tested before Landorus in ORAS OU. In fact, Greninja received more pro-ban votes than Landorus did. PRO was able to adapt to Greninja, which is still extremely strong on paper, yet somehow keeps underperforming. There are various reasons for this, such as the priority spam, but this is not a post about Greninja. I only brought it up to showcase why PRO is inherently different than Showdown and should abide by its own rules. "Smogon banned it, therefore it should be banned in PRO" is a moot point. Can you tell me why you think Landorus should be banned? There are certainly several pro-ban arguments that are applicable to PRO. However, I would like to tell you guys why it should not be banned and let you figure out why you so adamantly want it banned.

 

ABR gave some good anti-ban arguments during the Landorus suspect test. In PRO, Landorus has the potential to beat all of its checks, with the exception of Cresselia, but is unable to beat all of them at the same time. In this, Landorus is somewhat similar to Greninja and Manaphy. It does not have a 4MSS since it can still effectively do its job with the moves that it picks. What do you run on Landorus? There are so many sets! Earth Power is mandatory, but the other options are so varied: Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Psychic, Hidden Power Ice, Knock Off, Rock Polish, Calm Mind, etc. On Showdown, everyone was able to use and abuse a perfect Landorus with HP Ice and 331 speed (which is above the critical 328-speed tier). How many people have a good Landorus with HP Ice? Without HP Ice, which is hard to get, Landorus is prone to losing to Gliscor, Landorus-T, and many more threats. In general, depending on its set, Landorus-T can be easily revenge killed (especially if it chooses to run Calm Mind over Rock Polish) or even checked by the likes of Skarmory, Tornadus-T, Gliscor, Chansey, Latios/Latias, Gyarados, Slowking, Cresselia, etc. Can it beat all of them (minus Cresselia)? Yes, of course, but it is unable to beat all of them at once! Scout before attempting to check Landorus with your Gliscor or Chansey. On top of that, it is not easy to get Landorus in for free with the way that U-turn and Volt Switch work in PRO. Due to how rarely used Landorus is, players might not necessarily always prepare for it. You also have to choose between Landorus and Landorus-T, since you are unable to use both. However, the lack of preparation for Landorus is not a pro-ban argument. Why? Because Landorus is not overcentralizing to an unhealthy extent; many of its checks are naturally used on several teams and will remain highly viable long after Landorus gets the chop.

 

Do you know what is actually quite overcentralizing in PRO at the moment? Manaphy. That is something you have to be specifically prepared for in order to avoid getting 6-0'd. Power Whip Ferrothorn, Unaware Clefable, Chansey, priority users, and faster threats are all increasingly common. Yet, Manaphy is able to beat all those threats with the right coverage: HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Rain Dance for Chansey, maybe Mystic Water and a Modest nature for most Unaware Clefable sets, barring perhaps the uncommon Calm Unaware set, etc. Somewhat similarly to Landorus, Manaphy is able to beat all its checks, but cannot beat them all at once.

 

Despite everything I just said, I am in favor of a Landorus ban. I have read and researched enough to make up my own opinion on the matter. Does it mean that I am unable to acknowledge arguments that do not align with what I think? No, absolutely not! We should not be too Manichean or too categorical. In Landorus' case, I believe that the pro-ban arguments far outweigh the anti-ban arguments. This is why it should be banned, in my opinion. But do all of you know what the valid pro-ban arguments are? Have you even seen enough of Landorus in PvP to make such a definitive pro-ban decision?

Thats what i like to see. Actual analysis. Would you think Landorus would bring more variety into the meta? Players complain the meta right now its pretty Stall-heavy. Would you think it force people to run an answer to Landorus? Or that it deserves the ban? If its the hidden ability that should be banned or the pokemon as a whole?

[Digomenezes]

 

 

 

Again, we want to differentiate our meta from Smogon. If we are just a copypaste, where would be the individuality of PRO Meta?

 

 

 

anything more to say, but i do think h.a need to still a ban.

[Eric66]

First of all, I must apologize, if I will be disrespectfuly,but.. I dont see qny reason why should we ban it. Greninja, Weavile, Conkeldurr is just 3 example that can stop it. Pvp is full of rain and stall teams, but with Lando-I, we have a great poke to counter these, either with life orb or scarf. And here is the part where I might be disrespectful, but arena trap was banned, beacuse Chansey/Blissey users couldnt take it anymore the fact that a Dugtrio killed what other things couldnt do. I already know Lando-I gonna get bannef, beacuse Pro meta is stall, and they gonna "cry" until its not gonna get banned, but in my opinion, we just got another stallbreaker. Base 600 stat, but I dont see the reason why should we ban it. If its get banned, than lets check all those walls that killing the fun in pvp.

[Idkup]

First of all, I must apologize, if I will be disrespectfuly,but.. I dont see qny reason why should we ban it. Greninja, Weavile, Conkeldurr is just 3 example that can stop it. Pvp is full of rain and stall teams, but with Lando-I, we have a great poke to counter these, either with life orb or scarf. And here is the part where I might be disrespectful, but arena trap was banned, beacuse Chansey/Blissey users couldnt take it anymore the fact that a Dugtrio killed what other things couldnt do. I already know Lando-I gonna get bannef, beacuse Pro meta is stall, and they gonna "cry" until its not gonna get banned, but in my opinion, we just got another stallbreaker. Base 600 stat, but I dont see the reason why should we ban it. If its get banned, than lets check all those walls that killing the fun in pvp.

 

Stall is already starting to play Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian. This is simply disinformation - balance suffers most from Landorus-Incarnate existing.