PVP Feedback - Landorus

[Lor]

This feels like an election where our votes don't matter cause at the end of the day we don't make the decisions. Making a topic like this will just result to people complaining about said opinions:

• "Follow Smogon Rules".
  
• "Its Uber".
  

Edit: deleted the last part because it sounded like an attack.

Edited May 24, 2020 by G0od

[Novus]

This feels like an election where our votes don't matter cause at the end of the day we don't make the decisions. Making a topic like this will just result to people complaining about said opinions:

• "Follow Smogon Rules".
  
• "Its Uber".
  

Edit: deleted the last part because it sounded like an attack.

Our game is missing a good chunk of moves, abilities and items. Not to mention pokemon and mechanics, it makes for a very weird mix of different tiers with gen 7 data. Stuff like flying gem Hawlucha can be ran as they are legitimate in PRO, but not in Smogon. Pokemon teams that would be illegal or otherwise unviable in Smogon thrive in PRO metagame, because PRO meta is its own kind.

We want to explore the potentials of different pokemon inside this meta, as some may prove to be rather lacking instead of powerhouses (Case of Protean Greninja as pointed out some posts ago), thats why we want to hear genuine experiences/opinions when dealing or playing with the pokemon in question.

[Lor]

This is a farfetched idea but here's my 2 cent balancing skills and moves instead of banning pokemons. In different games if something is "overpowered" the balancing team would nerf it. As for Pokemon you can't apply this rule but if you can this would be my suggestion. Nerfing a pokemon that is overused/power and balancing it would change the way pvp is played.

 

If you think about it Pokemon has always been re-balancing moves in the games and changing pokemons abilities example: talonflame and gengar. This suggestion would make us different from other pokemon games and more advanced.

[Belzebel]

The entire Incarnate Landorus should be banned. Even the Sand Force one. This is how it is in Showdown, and it has a reason.

Sheer Force Landorus will make Sand Teams even stronger than it already is. Tyranitar is already the King of the Weathers, since theres no other Weather Setter that can switch into it. Stone Edge will kill or 2ko Pelippers, Ninetales-Alolan, Ninetales, Torkoal... If it's not a banded Tyranitar, it might not 2ko a Politoed, but... who uses Politoed? So, having Tyranitar with the most advantage of all weathers, it is really hard to dominate another weather to prevent Sand Force Landorus to get momentum in the sand. Almost nothing can switch into a Incarnate Landorus, being it Sheer Force or Sand Force. It It's just too easy to bring momentum to this pokemon. And, the fact it can learn so many coverage moves, it makes it harder to predict. Until you realise the set its running, at least 1 or 2 pokemon already died.

 

Incarnate Landorus should be entirely banned.

[Immimo]

Well, if landorus is finally banned, we MAY at least have the option to retrieve our ivs ticket, as there are people who don't know that this pokemon is banned in pvp and it would be a great waste of money, time and effort to have an epic landorus . (ivs tickets that cannot be commercialized).

It should be added ... that there are pokes faster than landorus, such as weavile, that this blow can easily be fired with a band ice shard or life orb.

Ice Shard Weavile 252 Atk Choice Band vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 408-484 (127.8 - 151.7%) - OHKO Guaranteed

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 832-983 (270.1 - 319.1%) - guaranteed OHKO

Landorus lacks priority moves, making it easy to counter with a bisharp sucker punch after a sword dance

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 355-418 (115.2 - 135.7%) - OHKO guaranteed

It should also be added that rain hits like ludicolo in the rain is guaranteed

A poke that has the chance to win against Landorus is Skarmory Counter or toxic and spam roost

I don't know, but this poke could break the meta-game a bit, since it is boring to always play against it and that some "LADDERS" players are so afraid of this Pokémon when they know how to play against it.

And since this Game is Pokemon Revolution Online I say that Landorus is not banned in any of its forms. This is not Pokemon Showdown.

Edited May 26, 2020 by immimo

[Scorpionsrl]

just keep therian form usable and ban the normal form

[Keabu]

The entire Incarnate Landorus should be banned. Even the Sand Force one. This is how it is in Showdown, and it has a reason.

 

> Sand Force Landorus is banned from Showdown because they do not make complex bans. The exact same thing happened with Speed Boost Blaziken = Even the Blaze version is considered Ubers. (And we can agree that Blaziken is pretty middling without the h.a)

 

Sheer Force Landorus will make Sand Teams even stronger than it already is. Tyranitar is already the King of the Weathers, since theres no other Weather Setter that can switch into it. Stone Edge will kill or 2ko Pelippers, Ninetales-Alolan, Ninetales, Torkoal... If it's not a banded Tyranitar, it might not 2ko a Politoed, but... who uses Politoed? So, having Tyranitar with the most advantage of all weathers, it is really hard to dominate another weather to prevent Sand Force Landorus to get momentum in the sand.

 

> I'm sorry to say this but this whole sentence feels like "Tyra is good against sun teams which I enjoy playing so it should be banned". Yes, Tyranitar is a strong mon. Yes, it is indeed strong against weather teams, especially Sun. Does it means that you should ban Sand Force Landorus-i because of this ? No.

 

1/ Sand-force Landorus is fairly easy to revenge kill without choice scarf.

 

2/ If it is scarfed, it's locked to ONE move. It means that you can switch-in fairly easily mons like Gliscor, Skarmory, Rotom-Wash etc.

 

3/ Sand Force = +50% damage with Rock / Steel / Ground = the most optimal (and common) set would use 252 atk with Earthquake and Stone Edge / Rock Slide, etc. This is way easier to predict than the Sheer Force Landorus.

 

4/ In top of that, Sand Rush Excadrill (which is fairly better than Lando in sand) is one of the reasons why sand teams are great. Running Lando + Excadrill in the same team is not a good idea (hello Rotom-W)

 

5/ "the king of the weathers" = The best weather in PRO is rain without a doubt. Being a nice counter to other weathers doesn't mean that it is the best weather in the game.

 

5/ What about tyranitar ? It's strong and it can be considered as a good counter against weather teams BUT it has a lot of downs.

A few calcs with the banded set, 252 Speed / Atk :

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 420-496 (123.1 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 300-354 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 348-410 (102 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 364-432 (106.7 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 335-398 (98.2 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 593-702 (173.9 - 205.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 832-988 (243.9 - 289.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 312-368 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 340-400 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 304-358 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 192-228 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 164-194 (48 - 56.8%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-482 (119.6 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 390-460 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

And now let's inspect PRO's usages in April :

 

Gold server :

 

3. Dragonite 8150 24% 51%

4. Rotom-Wash 7716 23% 54%

5. Conkeldurr 7622 22% 50%

9. Weavile 5760 17% 52%

12. Scizor 4336 13% 52%

14. Greninja 3924 11% 47%

15. Gliscor 3895 11% 49%

16. Bisharp 3738 11% 52%

19. Lucario 3374 10% 53%

22. Excadrill 2922 8% 49%

 

Silver server :

 

3. Rotom-Wash 13042 26% 55%

5. Dragonite 12190 24% 52%

8. Conkeldurr 9555 19% 50%

9. Weavile 9203 18% 50%

10. Lucario 7602 15% 50%

13. Scizor 6231 12% 51%

15. Greninja 6116 12% 46%

17. Bisharp 4945 10% 50%

22. Excadrill 4192 8% 54%

 

How strange .. It does have counters ??

Sand is strong yes. It has a LOT of counters tho. And they're not niche at all. (Unless you think the list and the calc i mentioned above are niche in PRO)

 

g momentum to this pokemon. And, the fact it can learn so many coverage moves, it makes it harder to predict. Until you realise the set its running, at least 1 or 2 pokemon already died.

 

This sentence is correct with Sheer Force Landorus. (and this is why it should be banned imo)

This is not right if you're talking about Sand Force+ Ttar.

 

Don't get my answer wrong, this is not an attack. But I had to reply when I saw your message.

You're pretty "influent" in this game, and i'm not sure that non-objective and biased answers like this one would be healthy for the game.

(Because obviously a large percentage of your fan-base will agree with what you say, regardless of the topic)

 

Next time, please think in a different way than "it is good against weathers which i'm used to play so it should be banned" before posting.

[Dactyliccoin]

Before I begin, let me preface this by saying that I agree that all bans should be approached with caution, as it can very much be a double edged sword that can both promote or stifle diversity/creativity in pvp. However, I strongly believe sheer force Landorus-i is oppressive to the extent where the entire meta has to be molded around him, as the currently available/coded pool of pokemons--or lack thereof--in PRO leaves us with little counterplay options.

 

One thing I want to address before going further into this is that, something being able to outspeed and ohko Landorus in a 1v1 environment does not constitute as a counterplay option. Pokemon battles are in 6v6 format for a good reason and without the ability to trap, Lando-i is free to switch out and you won't be able to kill it with weavile/greninja/mamoswine despite what so many on this discussion seem to think. Also, due to the sheer damage output from Lando-i, revenge killers simply cannot switch into him until something gets killed by Lando-i, and pursuit trapping doesn't do all that well since banded weavile pursuit takes 3 hits to KO lando-i anyways--which is far too long to be of relevance when you end up locking yourself into pursuit. A majority of the revenge killers capable of forcing out Landorus-I also lack means to set up or capitalize on that free turn due to having hard checks or limited movepools, which really limits their utility outside of forcing a switch.

 

Now, the biggest problem with sheer force Landorus-i is that there really aren't any good switchins when facing a Landorus-i, especially considering how hard he hits while having a vast movepool/coverage. Almost all of his coverage moves are boosted by sheer force, meaning his entire kit is effectively 110+ base power by default, with focus blast being a whopping 156 base power, all before life orb boosts. There is hardly any pokemon that can handle switching into him as a result, especially since you simply cannot predict what kit he would have on him. Lando having incredible coverage on both the physical and special spectrum means every switchin you make into lando is a massive gamble. But if testing waters to see what items/movesets your opponent has, and the mindgames surrounding it (predicting the switch with your own switch, or with some other moves to interrupt/cripple the switchins) has been a core gameplay loop on previous occasions, lando-i simply swoops in and removes any sort of strategy involved in those steps by outright killing, or getting a free hazard/boost setup with his massive offensive presence. If the previous gameplay loop was a 50-50 split in balance for mindgames and strategic thinking, lando-i single handedly stacks the favor in the house, making it a lose-lose situation for the opponent where even the optimal choice will come with a high risk of becoming a significant handicap to the battle.

 

 

Here are some damage calculations for a typical Landorus-I build vs various defensive pivots:

[spoiler=Damage calculations]

[spoiler=Damage calculations]

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 385-455 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Earth power easily 2hkos even on Naive build here. Specially defensive clef still gets guaranteed 2hkod by sludge wave.

 

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 244+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 234-278 (57.9 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 361-426 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Focus blast also 2hkos through the special wall that is eviolite chansey after stealth rock or 1 spike.

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Hippowdon: 274-324 (65.2 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Suicune: 214-253 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Naive still stands at a close to 50% chance at ohko. And Suicune can't really kill lando either.

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 211-248 (69.4 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sludge wave/Psychic also 2hkos.

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Alomomola: 312-368 (58.4 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 296-350 (88.6 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn: 294-348 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 76 SpD Gliscor: 395-468 (112.2 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Lando can also 2hko with psychic. But even assuming lando has neither, gliscor cannot achieve much against lando either.

 

4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-315 (88 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 159-187 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While Latios outspeeds Landorus and can force it out, switching into landorus is extremely risky for non-defensive latios with a guaranteed ohko from knock off if Stealth rock is in play

Even if Landorus uses Sludge Wave/HPIce, it takes out over half of Latios HP and forces a roost use immediately.

 

 

While the list goes on, I've primarily looked at the more commonly viable/competitive defensive pivots. As you can see, Landorus-i simply ohko~2hkos through almost any defensive pivots. Lando-i having access to a mixed attack pool, paired with a very good speed tier of 101, means there are practically no pokes that can reliably switch into Lando to force it out without being crippled/killed first. A rash Lando-i still outspeeds even a timid Rotom-W, the latter which is on the faster spectrum amongst defensive pivots. Additionally, Lando-i has access to stealth rock/calm mind/rock polish, which allows it to get free entry hazards up and/or fulfill the role of a late-game sweeper as well.

 

 

However, that is just in terms of landorus-I's offensive capabilities. Surely there are some other wall breakers that can pose a threat, albeit to a lesser extent. So what makes lando-i so different?

 

Unlike most other wallbreakers, Lando-I sports a fantastic Ground/Flying typing which grants him handy immunities to electric and ground, as well as only two weaknesses in ice and water. That, along with his decent bulk of 89/90/80, presents him with plentiful switchin opportunities and staying power, as he is just tanky enough to even survive a banded Azumarill's aqua jet.

 

Now I think what's pertinent and important to this discourse is that even when a pokemon is "OP" or "broken" for lack of better wards, there will always be ways to kill it or force it out. No pokemon is invincible, and will eventually succumb in some way or form. And Landorus follows that logic. Granted, saying X "can" potentially force it out/counter it in a very specific scenario is steering the discussion away from what is really relevant. While the pokemon game was never designed to be perfectly balanced, if a pokemon single handedly performs multiple roles at once and forces every team to bring multiple counters just to deal with it, it only enforces a stale meta (even staler than it is now) where you are not at liberty to build unique/different comps, but rather are forced a specific draft just to be able to survive certain pokemons. When a standard team facing another team that runs landorus-i is at a blatant disadvantage, it is most definitely uncompetitive and calls for a ban from our PvP. However, I also believe this is a good opportunity to consider adding another ladder/tier/scene for PvP with different rules and regulations, one where Landorus-i might be able to fit in without completely dominating the PvP scene as with other previously banned pokemons.

Edited May 29, 2020 by DactylicCoin

[Jorogumo]

First of all, thank you, @Keabu and @DactylicCoin, for making two well-written and well-informed posts. I would like to discuss them in detail.

 

> Sand Force Landorus is banned from Showdown because they do not make complex bans. The exact same thing happened with Speed Boost Blaziken = Even the Blaze version is considered Ubers. (And we can agree that Blaziken is pretty middling without the h.a)

 

This is absolutely true. Smogon always tries to prevent complex bans as much as possible. This was the main reason that the OU Council ultimately decided to ban Baton Pass altogether instead of trying to nerf it even further by making the Baton Pass clause more complex. Thankfully, PRO is not Smogon and can have its own set of rules.

 

1/ Sand-force Landorus is fairly easy to revenge kill without choice scarf.

 

This is also applicable to Sheer Force Landorus, so it does not really work as an argument in favor of keeping Sand Force Landorus over Sheer Force Landorus. Both are equally easy to revenge kill without Rock Polish or Choice Scarf. If anything, this works in favor of both sets.

 

2/ If it is scarfed, it's locked to ONE move. It means that you can switch-in fairly easily mons like Gliscor, Skarmory, Rotom-Wash etc.

 

Likewise, this is the case for Sheer Force Landorus as well. In fact, Choice Scarf on either is as debatable as Choice Scarf Nidoking, which I am sure some of us have run into in PvP once every blue moon. The ideal item for Sand Force Landorus has yet to be tested and found, but some options can seem appealing (Life Orb, Soft Sand, Leftovers, etc.). I do believe that Sand Force Landorus is manageable and should be kept if possible. It deserves the chance to be fully explored in PvP and certainly does not seem to be too strong on paper. It would have a well-defined niche on certain teams and would probably still see minimal usage due to the existence of its Therian counterpart.

 

3/ Sand Force = +50% damage with Rock / Steel / Ground = the most optimal (and common) set would use 252 atk with Earthquake and Stone Edge / Rock Slide, etc. This is way easier to predict than the Sheer Force Landorus.

 

In my opinion, this is the first valid argument that works in favor of keeping Sand Force Landorus. This set would also allow players to switch more easily between the Incarnate and the Therian forms without having to waste IV rerolls. A set with EdgeQuake and Double Dance (Swords Dance+Rock Polish) would still face competition from none other than Landorus-Therian, which boasts a higher attack stat and is overall more efficient because it does not require the presence of sand. Sand Force Landorus can still retain a niche on dedicated sand teams, either alongside Excadrill (similarly to Mega Garchomp) or on its own. The type synergy between them is also noteworthy, as Flying/Ground technically provides sand teams with a Ground immunity and a Fighting resistance, the latter of which does not really mean much on paper since you should not be switching Landorus into Fighting-types in the first place. Together, Excadrill and Landorus are likely to overwhelm each other's checks, as well as their common checks and counters. Rock Polish makes Landorus harder to revenge kill, while Swords Dance can be used against slower, more defensive teams. Having access to a crucial 101-speed tier is also quite nice. If you wish to drop Rock Polish, you can use Iron Tail, which is boosted by Sand Force while sand is up, although its shaky accuracy and the fact that many Pokémon hit by it are already hit quite hard by EdgeQuake should deter most players from picking it. Alternatively, other (physical or special) options can be chosen over Rock Polish or Swords Dance. Unlike Sheer Force Landorus, this Pokémon deserves to be explored in PvP because there are no theoretical loopholes to be exploited.

 

4/ In top of that, Sand Rush Excadrill (which is fairly better than Lando in sand) is one of the reasons why sand teams are great. Running Lando + Excadrill in the same team is not a good idea (hello Rotom-W)

 

Technically, Sand Force Landorus and Sand Rush Excadrill could fit on the same team. The uncompetitive Sand Veil Garchomp can be found on some dedicated sand teams, and I believe that its spot could sometimes go to Landorus instead. Regardless of whether one decides to run another sand abuser or not, any sand team should try to work around its increasingly growing weaknesses, Rotom-Wash being the biggest. I have seen so many weird, yet creative sets, such as Choice Band or Return Excadrill.

 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

 

With some chip damage and Stealth Rock, Return Excadrill can attempt to surprise Rotom-Wash. Just avoid revealing Return too soon! Return also hits Zapdos, but Rock Slide is still Excadrill's best option against it, so it has to choose one of them. Rapid Spin could also work. Overall, sand is not in a very good spot at the moment and, while I believe that the addition of Tornadus-Therian probably helped it a little, it still definitely needs Keldeo. I think that balance, in general, is in a mediocre state, but can be efficiently used, as shown by excellent players like @HeroOfTheStreet. As a whole, balanced teams would benefit from Keldeo's addition, and so would other playstyles that already benefited from the addition of Tornadus-Therian (like rain, which can run a mixed Life Orb set, and even stall, which now sometimes runs Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian). I have personally been abusing Tornadus-Therian in rain, but that is a discussion for another day. Keldeo would help with Weavile, which is starting to become unbearable, Bisharp, Tyranitar, and, to a lesser extent, Lucario. Would it break the meta? I am not sure. I have my own views on Keldeo, but I should not share them in a thread about Landorus. However, I would like to mention that, in my opinion, nice additions like Kyurem are never going to revolutionize the meta. Volcanion would be nice, I guess. It would not see much usage, though. On the other hand, Keldeo would definitely be used a lot. It fits on so many teams and defines certain archetypes.

 

5/ "the king of the weathers" = The best weather in PRO is rain without a doubt. Being a nice counter to other weathers doesn't mean that it is the best weather in the game.

 

I don't know if rain is necessarily the best weather playstyle, but it certainly is the easiest to play, which gives it a certain appeal. Being easy to play and being easy to win with are two completely different things, though, and I am not implying that rain requires no skill or no prediction. It certainly does if you wish to do well. However, it usually comes with quicker matches and fewer drawbacks than other weather teams. It is also quite punitive against some of the teams running around, while sand has fallen out of flavor. Overall, weather teams can still be quite dangerous, but rain is probably the most rewarding.

 

5/ What about tyranitar ? It's strong and it can be considered as a good counter against weather teams BUT it has a lot of downs.

A few calcs with the banded set, 252 Speed / Atk :

 

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 420-496 (123.1 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 300-354 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 348-410 (102 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 364-432 (106.7 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 335-398 (98.2 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 593-702 (173.9 - 205.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 832-988 (243.9 - 289.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 312-368 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 340-400 (99.7 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 304-358 (89.1 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 192-228 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 164-194 (48 - 56.8%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-482 (119.6 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 198-234 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 390-460 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Most Tyranitar sets (at least on Silver) now run Assault Vest or, at the very least, a defensive spread. I believe that Gengar and rain are partly to blame for this. I don't remember the last time that I played against Choice Band or Choice Scarf Tyranitar, the latter of which still traps Gengar, but can not safely switch into it. Many priority calculations that you listed do not really matter as much against defensive sets. For example, Conkeldurr can freely Drain Punch against any defensive Tyranitar. This is also not really a solid argument to prove that Tyranitar has weaknesses since I can list a lot of Pokémon that offensively annihilate Sheer Force Landorus. However, in Tyranitar's case, many Pokémon can safely switch into it after figuring out its set, which is much easier to discover than Landorus', because you can usually determine whether it is offensive or defensive whenever it gets hit or simply based on the way that the opponent is using it.

 

And now let's inspect PRO's usages in April :

 

Gold server :

 

3. Dragonite 8150 24% 51%

4. Rotom-Wash 7716 23% 54%

5. Conkeldurr 7622 22% 50%

9. Weavile 5760 17% 52%

12. Scizor 4336 13% 52%

14. Greninja 3924 11% 47%

15. Gliscor 3895 11% 49%

16. Bisharp 3738 11% 52%

19. Lucario 3374 10% 53%

22. Excadrill 2922 8% 49%

 

Silver server :

 

3. Rotom-Wash 13042 26% 55%

5. Dragonite 12190 24% 52%

8. Conkeldurr 9555 19% 50%

9. Weavile 9203 18% 50%

10. Lucario 7602 15% 50%

13. Scizor 6231 12% 51%

15. Greninja 6116 12% 46%

17. Bisharp 4945 10% 50%

22. Excadrill 4192 8% 54%

 

How strange .. It does have counters ??

Sand is strong yes. It has a LOT of counters tho. And they're not niche at all. (Unless you think the list and the calc i mentioned above are niche in PRO)

 

A lot of these do not appreciate Excadrill's presence, so it is not really fair to include them just because they are able to beat Tyranitar. Sand can also be used with Hippowdon instead, although it is more niche. Either way, being able to beat Tyranitar does not mean being able to beat sand, and certainly not singlehandedly. Sand teams still use 5 other Pokémon outside of the sand setter. I do get your point, do not get me wrong. However, it is important to be as accurate as possible when making such statements. I think that Sand Force Landorus has checks and counters that can naturally be found on many teams, which is why this Pokémon deserves to be given a chance. As for Sheer Force Landorus, my earlier post in this thread was just to deter people from blindly following Smogon without knowing why Sheer Force Landorus should be banned. I believe this has been made possible thanks to several posts, including the ones you made in this thread. Sadly, What we lack right now is actual, in-game footage of Sheer Force Landorus.

 

Before I begin, let me preface this by saying that I agree that all bans should be approached with caution, as it can very much be a double edged sword that can both promote or stifle diversity/creativity in pvp. However, I strongly believe sheer force Landorus-i is oppressive to the extent where the entire meta has to be molded around him, as the currently available/coded pool of pokemons--or lack thereof--in PRO leaves us with little counterplay options.

 

How can a Pokémon with minimal usage possibly be oppressive to the extent where the entire meta has to be molded around him? Are you specifically preparing for Landorus before PvPing? I mean, I am entirely pro-Sheer Force Landorus ban, but this is just misinformation at this point. In ORAS OU, Landorus actually saw decent usage (over 10%) before it got banned. This Pokémon is currently irrelevant. However, usage does not equate viability. There are way stronger points in favor of banning Sheer Force Landorus than pretending that it is overcentralizing to the unhealthy extent of needing to run 1 or 2 specific checks/counters (lol) to it. Hello Weavile and Manaphy!

 

One thing I want to address before going further into this is that, something being able to outspeed and ohko Landorus in a 1v1 environment does not constitute as a counterplay option. Pokemon battles are in 6v6 format for a good reason and without the ability to trap, Lando-i is free to switch out and you won't be able to kill it with weavile/greninja/mamoswine despite what so many on this discussion seem to think. Also, due to the sheer damage output from Lando-i, revenge killers simply cannot switch into him until something gets killed by Lando-i, and pursuit trapping doesn't do all that well since banded weavile pursuit takes 3 hits to KO lando-i anyways--which is far too long to be of relevance when you end up locking yourself into pursuit. A majority of the revenge killers capable of forcing out Landorus-I also lack means to set up or capitalize on that free turn due to having hard checks or limited movepools, which really limits their utility outside of forcing a switch.

 

Don't forget that Landorus should be switching out against Weavile, thus taking increased Pursuit damage, which then leaves it in a precarious position.

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile switching boosted Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 204-240 (63.9 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Everything else holds true, though. Of course, you do not technically have to revenge kill Landorus. As long as you outspeed it or threaten it, you should be in a position to (re)gain momentum. Offensive Garchomp can force it out, for example.

 

Now, the biggest problem with sheer force Landorus-i is that there really aren't any good switchins when facing a Landorus-i, especially considering how hard he hits while having a vast movepool/coverage. Almost all of his coverage moves are boosted by sheer force, meaning his entire kit is effectively 110+ base power by default, with focus blast being a whopping 156 base power, all before life orb boosts. There is hardly any pokemon that can handle switching into him as a result, especially since you simply cannot predict what kit he would have on him. Lando having incredible coverage on both the physical and special spectrum means every switchin you make into lando is a massive gamble. But if testing waters to see what items/movesets your opponent has, and the mindgames surrounding it (predicting the switch with your own switch, or with some other moves to interrupt/cripple the switchins) has been a core gameplay loop on previous occasions, lando-i simply swoops in and removes any sort of strategy involved in those steps by outright killing, or getting a free hazard/boost setup with his massive offensive presence. If the previous gameplay loop was a 50-50 split in balance for mindgames and strategic thinking, lando-i single handedly stacks the favor in the house, making it a lose-lose situation for the opponent where even the optimal choice will come with a high risk of becoming a significant handicap to the battle.

 

This is actually somewhat applicable to Greninja as well, although the biggest difference is that Landorus is not as prone to priority spam. Please do not make me explain why Greninja is able to hit all of its so-called checks and counters (Hidden Power Grass for Rotom-Wash, Hidden Power Fire or Low Kick for Ferrothorn, etc.). I think that, in Greninja's case, using the wrong move is more punitive. Landorus is more forgiving if you happen to mispredict once because you will most likely be able to nuke or beat whatever switches into it or come back later to avoid making the same mistake again. Landorus is a low-risk, high-reward Pokémon, in my opinion. Greninja also takes Life Orb recoil, while Landorus usually doesn't, although that does depend on the moves it clicks.

 

Unlike most other wallbreakers, Lando-I sports a fantastic Ground/Flying typing which grants him handy immunities to electric and ground, as well as only two weaknesses in ice and water. That, along with his decent bulk of 89/90/80, presents him with plentiful switchin opportunities and staying power, as he is just tanky enough to even survive a banded Azumarill's aqua jet.

 

It is true that Landorus' bulk is often overlooked. It is certainly respectable and can be occasionally abused to switch into some Pokémon, although it is probably better to avoid recklessly switching it into things, as it needs to remain healthy in order to avoid becoming easy to revenge kill. I think that U-turn and Volt Switch are still good enough to safely bring it in. However, there are ways of making double switches less punitive. Hello, Aurora Veil!

 

Now I think what's pertinent and important to this discourse is that even when a pokemon is "OP" or "broken" for lack of better wards, there will always be ways to kill it or force it out. No pokemon is invincible, and will eventually succumb in some way or form. And Landorus follows that logic. Granted, saying X "can" potentially force it out/counter it in a very specific scenario is steering the discussion away from what is really relevant. While the pokemon game was never designed to be perfectly balanced, if a pokemon single handedly performs multiple roles at once and forces every team to bring multiple counters just to deal with it, it only enforces a stale meta (even staler than it is now) where you are not at liberty to build unique/different comps, but rather are forced a specific draft just to be able to survive certain pokemons. When a standard team facing another team that runs landorus-i is at a blatant disadvantage, it is most definitely uncompetitive and calls for a ban from our PvP. However, I also believe this is a good opportunity to consider adding another ladder/tier/scene for PvP with different rules and regulations, one where Landorus-i might be able to fit in without completely dominating the PvP scene as with other previously banned pokemons.

 

My recommendation for future suspect tests is to give everyone a timed Pokémon (e.g., Landorus with Hidden Power Ice) that they could use in PvP as an incentive to get as many players as possible to use the Pokémon being suspect tested. Requirements should be determined beforehand. We do not have to follow Smogon's format, although it is quite good. The Pokémon would ultimately be removed at the end of the suspect test period.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Jorogumo

[Keabu]

This is also applicable to Sheer Force Landorus, so it does not really work as an argument in favor of keeping Sand Force Landorus over Sheer Force Landorus. Both are equally easy to revenge kill without Rock Polish or Choice Scarf. If anything, this works in favor of both sets.

Likewise, this is the case for Sheer Force Landorus as well. In fact, Choice Scarf on either is as debatable as Choice Scarf Nidoking, which I am sure some of us have run into in PvP once every blue moon. The ideal item for Sand Force Landorus has yet to be tested and found, but some options can seem appealing (Life Orb, Soft Sand, Leftovers, etc.). I do believe that Sand Force Landorus is manageable and should be kept if possible. It deserves the chance to be fully explored in PvP and certainly does not seem to be too strong on paper. It would have a well-defined niche on certain teams and would probably still see minimal usage due to the existence of its Therian counterpart.

 

> Yeah, it works with both sets. The main difference between the two sets (and this has been already said a lot in this thread) is that you can't really switch-in on Sheer Force Landorus if it has the right set. (But y, thats not revenge killing tho)

 

> It kinda feels like Scarfed Landorus with Sheer Force is a waste. (at least to my eyes)

This is only my opinion but just like nidoking, it is supposed to be a terryfing wallbreaker without any forms of reliable switch-ins. If scarfed, it will surprise you once for sure, but then it is locked to one move and can be taken out more easily. In top of that some foes cannot be 2hkoed without the life orb damage boost.

 

In my opinion, this is the first valid argument that works in favor of keeping Sand Force Landorus. This set would also allow players to switch more easily between the Incarnate and the Therian forms without having to waste IV rerolls. A set with EdgeQuake and Double Dance (Swords Dance+Rock Polish) would still face competition from none other than Landorus-Therian, which boasts a higher attack stat and is overall more efficient because it does not require the presence of sand. Sand Force Landorus can still retain a niche on dedicated sand teams, either alongside Excadrill (similarly to Mega Garchomp) or on its own. The type synergy between them is also noteworthy, as Flying/Ground technically provides sand teams with a Ground immunity and a Fighting immunity, the latter of which does not really mean much on paper since you should not be switching Landorus into Fighting-types in the first place. Together, Excadrill and Landorus are likely to overwhelm each other's checks, as well as their common checks and counters. Rock Polish makes Landorus harder to revenge kill, while Swords Dance can be used against slower, more defensive teams. Having access to a crucial 101-speed tier is also quite nice. If you wish to drop Rock Polish, you can use Iron Tail, which is boosted by Sand Force while sand is up, although its shaky accuracy and the fact that many Pokémon hit by it are already hit quite hard by EdgeQuake should deter most players from picking it. Alternatively, other (physical or special) options can be chosen over Rock Polish or Swords Dance. Unlike Sheer Force Landorus, this Pokémon deserves to be explored in PvP because there are no theoretical loopholes to be exploited.

 

> That's right. Imo, Sand Force Landorus would benefit sand teams and add another option to it (because out of all weathers, sand might be the one with the most restricted choices : Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Excadrill, Sandslash, Garchomp and Stoutland.) Most of the time, a "sand offense" is the classic defensive Ttar + Exca. I would love to see more sand teams in the future using Sand Force Landorus.

 

Technically, Sand Force Landorus and Sand Rush Excadrill could fit on the same team. The uncompetitive Sand Veil Garchomp can be found on some dedicated sand teams, and I believe that its spot could sometimes go to Landorus instead. Regardless of whether one decides to run another sand abuser or not, any sand team should try to work around its increasingly growing weaknesses, Rotom-Wash being the biggest. I have seen so many weird, yet creative sets, such as Choice Band or Return Excadrill.

 

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Return vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery

 

With some chip damage and Stealth Rock, Return Excadrill can attempt to surprise Rotom-Wash. Just avoid revealing Return too soon! Return also hits Zapdos, but Rock Slide is still Excadrill's best option against it, so it has to choose one of them. Rapid Spin could also work. Overall, sand is not in a very good spot at the moment and, while I believe that the addition of Tornadus-Therian probably helped it a little, it still definitely needs Keldeo. I think that balance, in general, is in a mediocre state, but can be efficiently used, as shown by excellent players like @HeroOfTheStreet. As a whole, balanced teams would benefit from Keldeo's addition, and so would other playstyles that already benefited from the addition of Tornadus-Therian (like rain, which can run a mixed Life Orb set, and even stall, which now sometimes runs Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian). I have personally been abusing Tornadus-Therian in rain, but that is a discussion for another day. Keldeo would help with Weavile, which is starting to become unbearable, Bisharp, Tyranitar, and, to a lesser extent, Lucario. Would it break the meta? I am not sure. I have my own views on Keldeo, but I should not share them in a thread about Landorus. However, I would like to mention that, in my opinion, nice additions like Kyurem are never going to revolutionize the meta. Volcanion would be nice, I guess. It would not see much usage, though. On the other hand, Keldeo would definitely be used a lot. It fits on so many teams and defines certain archetypes.

 

Sand Veil is legit :^)

 

> Don't get me wrong, they both form a cool offensive sand core. It just feels like outside of sand it is pretty weak.

I 100% agree that Keldeo should be released in PRO. (If the staff is not sure about it, they can suspect-test it)

It would benefit a lot balanced teams, which as you said are not in the best spot atm. (but the playstyle is still pretty decent if well-played) It helps a lot against Weavile as you said. Sadly this is not the right place to discuss about it :/ I do hope it will be released soon tho.

(another cool addition to the game would be Kyurem-B btw)

 

Most Tyranitar sets (at least on Silver) now run Assault Vest or, at the very least, a defensive spread. I believe that Gengar and rain are partly to blame for this. I don't remember the last time that I played against Choice Band or Choice Scarf Tyranitar, the latter of which still traps Gengar, but can not safely switch into it. Many priority calculations that you listed do not really matter as much against defensive sets. For example, Conkeldurr can freely Drain Punch against any defensive Tyranitar. This is also not really a solid argument to prove that Tyranitar has weaknesses since I can list a lot of Pokémon that offensively annihilate Sheer Force Landorus. However, in Tyranitar's case, many Pokémon can safely switch into it after figuring out its set, which is much easier to discover than Landorus', because you can usually determine whether it is offensive or defensive whenever it gets hit or simply based on the way that the opponent is using it.

 

> I just used Banded Tyra as an example because in Belzebel's answer, she talked about this set in particular. I agree that defensive Ttar is more reliable as a weather inducer, and as you said, if not banded / used offensively, it is way more easy to check.

 

A lot of these do not appreciate Excadrill's presence, so it is not really fair to include them just because they are able to beat Tyranitar. Sand can also be used with Hippowdon instead, although it is more niche. Either way, being able to beat Tyranitar does not mean being able to beat sand, and certainly not singlehandedly. Sand teams still use 5 other Pokémon outside of the sand setter. I do get your point, do not get me wrong. However, it is important to be as accurate as possible when making such statements. I think that Sand Force Landorus has checks and counters that can naturally be found on many teams, which is why this Pokémon deserves to be given a chance. As for Sheer Force Landorus, my earlier post in this thread was just to deter people from blindly following Smogon without knowing why Sheer Force Landorus should be banned. I believe this has been made possible thanks to several posts, including the ones you made in this thread. Sadly, What we lack right now is actual, in-game footage of Sheer Force Landorus.

 

> Same thing as above, I was trying to show her that Ttar has a low of counters in the game. (cuz this whole answer was mainly about Ttar + Sand Force Landorus)

 

Thanks for your (constructive) answer :)

I really think PRO needs to collect real in-game data about such controversial mons before trying to ban them. This is not smogon / showdown and we shouldn't blindly follow them. But this is important to notice that such mons would be banned in metagames where everything is usable with any movesets at any times.