Why the "PvP Council" is a failure and how we can fix it!

[Teerav]

I have been extremely vocal about the failure of the implementation and treatment of the "Official" PvP Council for PRO.

 

First, we must understand what PRO created the PvP Council for. Its purpose, as defined by PRO is: 

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The PvP Council is the entity in charge of managing and overseeing the competitive side of the game, looking after the meta in lookout for Pokémon, moves or combination that prove to be harmful or unhealthy for it with the help of the moderation team, and decide a favorable approach in order to make competitive more enjoyable and balanced for everyone.

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Source: https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/159114-introducing-the-pvp-council/
 

Speaking of that post, please review my initial view on this announcement: https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/159114-introducing-the-pvp-council/?do=findComment&comment=904730

The PvP Council discord started off really well. Council members were discussing every other day or so. Daily activity wasn't necessarily needed, just enough to keep things active. However, it quickly feel apart due to lack of leadership and support from PRO Staff. I'll go through some examples on how leaderships inaction and slow reactions began to lose the councils trust in the system:

Example 1: Council members need to wait 2+ weeks for official responses to requests.

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Below you notice Keita, PRO Staff Admin, posted on Dec 30, 2020 to let the council know a decision would be made based on a council request within "24 hours". However, it took over two weeks, on Jan 16, 2021 for PRO Staff Developer, Walross, to respond. And the response was a question! The question was then discussed, but Walross never returned to #council-chat to review the discussion about his question. On Jan 30, 2021 a council member tagged Keita asking for response. Keitas response was a screenshot of Walross saying it will be discussed more after Wave Three Megas release. However, his response was given in the #general chat of the discord, NOT #council-chat where his initial question was given.

 

Example 2: Council members begin to leave the council due to lack of confidence in the system.

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Feb 13, 2021 a council member started to ask to be removed from council due to lack of confidence in the system. Walross response? "Done." Clearly no interest into learning more about why the council member believed the council's opinion "doesnt matter". This easily sends a message Walross doesnt care about pvp council.

 

Example 3: Walross confirms wave three mega bans, etc, will "most likely" be discussed by the PvP PRO Council.

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To add insult to injury, immediately after "Done." in example 2, Walross was tagged with a question for a council member which didn't get a response until tagged again over a month later. Note that Walross gave hope to the council they would be heavily involved discussing wave three megas. As per this hope, council began to discuss.

 

 

Example 4: More council members begin to express their lack of confidence in the system created.

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The screenshot below tells the whole story. Not even a response from PRO Staff regarding council members vocal concerns. Even Keita expresses the truth of the systems failure.

 

 

 

I encourage you to join the "PRO PvP Council" Discord and review #council-chat for yourself. Note the timestamps of #announcements made by Walross.  Wave three mega bans discussions where never began in #council-chat by Walross as stated in Example 3 above, leading to Example 4. Also note absolutely NOTHING posted in #council-announcements or #suspect-results-votes as of the posting of this thread.

 

OKAY, SO HOW CAN WE FIX IT?

 

Step 1: Move everything in "Pokemon Revolution Online" Official Discord.

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Start this by creating a new category in the PRO Discord labeled "PvP". Channels should be as followed:
#council-chat -- Viewable by everyone, but only official council members and certain PRO Staff / Moderation can type there.

PRO Staff and Moderation should be heavily discouraged from adding input to council discussions unless specifically called on by the council. This can be done by creating a "PvP Council Member" role and assigning proper permissions to the channel. This is very easy to do and I know there are people within PRO Discord Moderations that know how to do this and I trust they could make it happen.

#council-voting -- Designated for VOTING ONLY based on the councils needs. More on this in Step 2.

#veteran-pvp-chat -- Viewable by everyone, but only players who have proven to reach high rating in PRO are allowed to type. 

Something that was rightly enjoyed about the separate discord was a "smaller" community of "veteran" pvpers that kept pvp discussions of high quality due to no "noobs" suggesting things like Caterpie to be banned because String Shot is OP. Bad example, but you get the idea. 

#pvp-chat-and-help -- Viewable by everyone, everyone can type. Typical chat designed and moderated for pvp discussions and topics.

 

Easy! This incorporates *everything* this "PvP Council" discord has. Announcements about the council, etc, can be done through #announcement channel already establish in PRO Discord because the council IS PRO related.

 

 

Step 2: Re-establish the council to 7 total members. Then have these 7 members vote on appointing a council lead.

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https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/159114-introducing-the-pvp-council/ did a good job defining and selecting a proper council member. This should be followed when filling the council back to 7 members.

 

Once that is established, have these members vote on a council lead. The council lead will use their best judgement on when to appropriately start suspect testing and votes on official quick-bans, bans, etc. This is purposefully vague and subject to the council lead. Think about how the council lead got their position. The community must trust that 7 responsible and knowledgeable members are assigned to the council. Then these members vote on their piers to decide who is most responsible and knowledgeable between them. The council lead will ideally be someone that earns this position.

 

 

Step 3: All voting will be viewable by the public in #council-voting. Each member has 1 vote worth 1 point, while a member of PRO Staff has 1 vote worth 3 points. Ties are decided by Council Lead.

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Yeah, this is more of a compromise to appease the egos of PRO Staff (aka Wally) who have proven to us they really dont want to let the community dictate their game. With the power of 3 points, it would take at only 2 votes to from council to overturn the majority of the council in favor of PRO Staff representative (probably Walross). But whose opinion would you trust, 6 respectable and knowledgably members of the pvp community plus their pier appointed leader? Or a member of PRO Staff? -- balanced, at least close as we can maybe get to it.

 

Step 4: Respect from PRO Staff.

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Again, the whole idea of PvP Council was awesome. It almost worked, but it was missing on ingredient: Walross's respect. Walross did not respect his own Admin's genuine attempt to please the community by creating a PvP Council. Once he respects it and follows the system, he will stop getting hated on for pvp rule changes. He can blame it all on the council! Less stress for him. More control for the community.

 

[Saintebaguette]

I believe pvp council, instead of 7, should be way more than that. Reason: To avoid maintaining a stall meta or keep the pvp stagnant. The more opinons, the best, i heavily suggest that the "chairs" in the council, should not be stable, this way, we can keep for example 8 stable chairs,  (top 4 ladder both server) and the "contestants", why? Because new strategies should be implemented, imagine if you have 2/3 of the server wanting  i don't know, Mawile for example, because counters the top 10 ladder, naturally the ones against mawile will be usually the ones who will struggle a lot. More opinions will avoid the pvp to be only 3 teams with same moves.
Think about it, in pvp chat we have usually "you need speed 31 in case someone put an azu or a if your poke is 30 and the opponent is 31 speed". This shows that players are LESS motivated to try new stuff because they lack options. What is the point of having new pokemons if they'll be banned right away?
As someone said, imagine farming a poke tirelessly for end up being banned.  We want a balanced pvp, mixed where someone can risk using a simple bidoof and batom pass(example), and not chansey, clefable... and the rest your mind already figure out the rest.
The council should indeed have more decisive power, but, however, every way, the players also should have a chance to have voice on it and when i mean players, i mean, not only the council. I believe that making a poll after decisions for the community to vote is essencial. Why would 7 decide for 1k?

[5tryker]

I fully agree with the idea proposed by Teerav.

 

However, I think that due to the health of the PRO's PvP, we should first get these last changes announced to be undone.

And from that, the new changes to the PvP rule are made based on what is discussed within the council.

[Crucifixuz]

unban mawile ban chansey

[Kesser]

elo benc B)

[Idilassijassi]

sad ban aloot poke banned  rip pvp 

[Johnnymadre]

Excellent speech from teerav here,provided all the facts with screenshots and in a detailed manner.

I think he got a point pvp council can be usefull but not in the way pro staff handles the sittuation.

Let people voices be heard on the manner they are the heart of the game after all.

[5tryker]

Reading the Council chat, it is clear that banning these 4 Pokémon the way they were, IS WRONG. And that the advice was not taken into account.

 

If there is a council, it means that there is a democratic environment, correct?

 

If you want to keep something healthy, at the very least, these last bans must be canceled and from there, use as an apprenticeship, and let the council do the work it was proposed to do. I understand perfectly that Wallrros occupies a complicated position. But the council is there to ease this burden for him, and not only, for the other staff members as well.

[Dorkmesh]

Greninja was an empty ban. Players should have been asked. 

[Nechrit]

Love the idea! It's how it was presented in the first place.

But not gonna happen. Stop swiping cards to buy CCs, perhaps our opinion will be considered then.