Petition to Unban Greninja from Ranked OU PvP

[Cyanirl]

wtb arena trap conkeldurr

[Badburn]

make kecleon great again!! 

[Boomth12]

1 hour ago, Eric66 said:

So we are trying to prove its "broken" and "breaking a healthy meta game" with smogon, which is obviously not healthy, it was never healthy, and never gonna be. Above me, facts were stated. They might be true. But theres like 2 words that makes it questionable. What if. Theres no what if in pokemon. Your opponent either have it or not, and you have to figure it out, whether it has it or not. Tho, Im not sure if you read mine or not, but I clearly stated that Ice Beam is 100% there, so you obviously not going to bring out a flying type like Zapdos. I also stated the fact that Chansey not going to die to Low Kick, due to having Softboiled. You gave us a calculation with spikes and stealth rocks up. Why would you let it set up hazards? I mean, every single team should have either a defogger or a rapid spinner. It can 2h ko Chansey after hazard damage, and high roll, probably the highest roll low kick. But lets be honest,what are the chances you get twice in a row the highest roll and your opponent doesnt use softboiled. Basicly 0. Hp grass is not used in ranked. Never saw one, and probably no one used it (sorry if somebody used it here). Rotom wash, even bold, will wall and check Greninja. Thats 100%, I saw it, I experienced it, and my Greninja was nowhere near bad. 

Regarding to Oda's answer, Mega Alakazam is not gonna get banned? Lets check it, probably the highest speed after Deoxys-speed form. High spatk. It can copy the enemy's ability, so bringing out on a sturdy pokemon will make it harder to play against it. We either get every Gen7 poke at the same time, or we dont need them. As I mentioned before, Toxapex will break this unhealthy meta even more. Of course, it can be killed with EQ. Just like how you can kill Greninja with max 2 hits, since its a class cannon. Tapus going to break the game even more. Rest of the gen7 pokemons are fine, of course Magearna is an exception. Greninja didnt made it unhealthy, in fact made it somehow healthier. 

 

Why would you let the hazard up ?

 - To be honest, everyone doesn't want the hazards up for sure but we can't manage everything we wanted. I'd rather let it up than sac my win cons.

 

Chansey not going to die to Low Kick, due to having Softboiled.

- ofc it's not but not everyone can manage Chansey with full hp all the time. bad position = dead and as  I stated chansey is not counter just check. take a hit from one low kick, forced to softboiled. easy bring physical attackers.

 

Why we can't afford to make full hp chansey all the time? 

- because it's defensive pokemon, we always use it to check or take some sp.atk damage, alright it can softboiled to get full hp back but in some situation, you can't softboiled. such as you use chansey to check rotom, rotom volt out then switch in to any physical attacker, or set up sweeper. you're forced to switch out.

 

Hp grass greninja is used in rank tbh, especially rich players or pvper who can afford. Yes, rotom can check it without hp.grass once or twice. it also took about 40% from extrasensory + in case gren holding life orb therefore you can make only one or two mistake to let rotom taking any damage plus gren also spike at rotom face when predicted volt out.

 

Again to clarify, I considered in the situation under 6vs6 pokemons not 1vs1.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by boomth12

[Shunsou]

1 hour ago, 0danobunaga said:

In 2018, Eaty started to code Protean but froakie only available in Summer event. In 2019, staff made Lake Cave and make the Froakie available and people started to hunt at there until now. And Player use Greninja's move in PvP which are Water Shuriken(new player use it), Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Surf, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Fire, U-turn,Grass Knot (too less people use it), Shadow Sneak, Dark Pulse and Extrasensory  because mega no exists yet and majority to kill Chansey,Ferrothorn and Conkeldurr.  In 2020, PvP players already experienced with using Spike, Hidden Power grass and Ice Beam to make pressure almost of defogger as well as check. Even player don't have Hp Grass but player still can use U-turn to make momentum from switching. Even Scarf Protean Greninja also exists as well which is using Rock Slide, Gunk Shot, U-turn and Ice Beam. And now, we have Mega Evolution in game. It can pair with good Mega Pokemon such as Mega Metagross, Mega Medicham, Mega Alakazam, Mega Lopunny  and almost of Offensive Pokemon such as Keldeo(popular pokemon), Serperior Contrary (to get Evasion boost from Defog if people want to Defog Spike), Bisharp Defiant(to get Attack boost from Defog if people want to Defog Spike). 

 

Why it banned? Due to unexpected move from Greninja Protean. And we not only fight one opponent which is only use Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Ice Beam and Extrasensory/Surf move but we can't predict what move will coming from other opponents.

Before post this thread, try to some research due to lack of informations. And Greninja Protean will be unbanned after we get many generation 7 pokemon. 
 

i can agree if greninja can do so many moves, it has great moves pool but that doesnt means make this poke broken. since it can dies even with not super effective moves. this poke also ironically can dies with his own life orb, or even fake out spam. in other side we only can use 4 moves in 1 poke and we have 6 slotted pokes in a team that can do check. and scarf ninja will not able to break any walls since most of them access protect or regen moves.
and about new player uses their own moves without copying smogon or most used moves. i will call it this is how we live, we do experiments to beats our newest challange and threat. and for years ninja never debating in, everyone can accept its mobility so good but in other side this thing so fragile.
and everyone use their ninja to makes their team more solid, they uses moves what the other poke cant learn in team, we should already can predict a little what it will do just by draft. atleast experienced pvpver know how to solve it. we can also beat non scarfed ninja with any scarf poke easily, if they used scarf on it we know what we will do next step. for example pursuit, double switch or something that make you can go ladder.
and i still dont get why need next gen mons to come to make ninja unbanned since already so many megas and tricks can beat it

[Eric66]

41 minutes ago, DeIta said:

just mach punch

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(jk -1 stay in ur cage frog )

So yes. Community vote was here and there among suggestion. I would take it too, but there are players like him, that would clearly mess it up. This was a calm debate, changing opinions, and someone bargs in, and thinks he will be funny, if he make it personal. 

[Idkup]

why is anyone even talking about unpredictability

greninja only needs 4 moves to be beyond broken

it should always be running 3 of those 4 moves

any other set is hard trolling and makes greninja look balanced

 

Greninja @ Life Orb

Ability: Protean

Timid Nature

252 SpA 252 Spe 4 Def

- Ice Beam

- Hydro Pump

- Spikes

- Extrasensory / Hidden Power Grass

 

anything you need other coverage to hit you can just spikestack on, the only defoggers allowed to play the game are mantine, spdef mew, and empoleon (lol)

 

i dont think i need to explain why stacking spikes on a mon with infinite offensive pressure is broken asf

Edited May 2, 2021 by idkup

[Eric66]

Okay, so lets check this Greninja ban in a whole a bit. Huge movepool and fast. Now lets check things like Dragonite. Its just an example, dont ban it. It has access to the elemental punches, iron head, to fire, fighting, ground, rock type moves beside the dragon and flying type moves. Also it has access to dragon dance. Since we stated many things with If, than lets use it here too. Enemy used dragon dance with Dragonite. You bring out something like Ferrothorn,since you are hoping its doesnt have Fire Punch. Next turn, your ferro is gone, since Drago used fire punch. Ofc, you can bring out a Clefable. It can have Iron Head, and your Clefable is gone. So basicly theres no good switch in for it. Its ability makes it survive a physical move, and even special moves, unless its ice or dragon type move. This could make Dragonite a huge threat too, and still allowed in pvp. Ofc, stealth rocks can be up, but we know, that Dragonite users will player around with that defog. But Dragonite is just one of the few pokemon that can suprise enemies, just like Greninja. But of course, this is just an example. 

[Eric66]

7 minutes ago, idkup said:

why is anyone even talking about unpredictability

greninja only needs 4 moves to be beyond broken

it should always be running 3 of those 4 moves

any other set is hard trolling and makes greninja look balanced

 

Greninja @ Life Orb

Ability: Protean

Timid Nature

252 SpA 252 Spe 4 Def

- Ice Beam

- Hydro Pump

- Spikes

- Extrasensory / Hidden Power Grass

 

anything you need other coverage to hit you can just spikestack on, the only defoggers allowed to play the game are mantine, spdef mew, and empoleon (lol)

 

i dont think i need to explain why stacking spikes on a mon with infinite offensive pressure is broken asf

Ok, so you think only thix exist and everything else is hard troll. With anything else, Greninja seems to be balanced. I saw that the main threat was Greninja with spikes. Than why not ban Protean Greninja with spikes? Just like we used to have the Gliscor +defog ban in the past. They could easily just ban that, but still didnt do it. 

[Shunsou]

1 hour ago, boomth12 said:

It’s true that greninja has been a part in the ranked pvp for almost 2 years but back in that time we still don’t have any pvp council yet. The council was created to discuss about any pvp topics because the staff might be not knowledgeable enough or need some pvpers’s opinion to discuss about pvp things and I believed the thread about greninja and aegislash were brought up to discussed since the council were created but they did not get banned for some reasons even if the council members agreed to ban it for long long time.

 

 

Why they unbanned metagross ?

                Some people in council agree to ban it and some people did not therefore the council do their job to survey top 25 pvpers’s opinion in both server [in that time] last season which is in April, 2021. I guess, the conclusion of the survey [ both of council members and Top#25 on both servers] is unbanned the metagrossite. below is my opinion about metagross.

  Hide contents

Imo, gren, mawile and sableye are solid ban so I am completely agree to ban them but I think differently with metagross. 
So first it’s 700 based stats with its ability is really op ngl. But there are lots of things that can check it tho.
[12:50 AM]
Bulky steel type : Defensive mega scizor is completely wall mega metagross for sure it can set up on mega metagross face cause nothing’s going to 2 hit k.o. it. 
    Skamory : if metagross did not run thunder punch, skamory completely wall it but I knew some ppl run it. So it has the chance to 2hit ko ska with 2 thunder punch if sr up.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 132-156 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Water type : slowbro, suicune, rotom-wash etc can check it. I think slowbro  starmie and suicune always run scald and if I use metagross vs them I will not take the risk to get burned if I have another choice. As I reference about thunder punch above. It’s same situation as skamory.
[12:50 AM]
Defensive rotom-wash : nowadays[based on pvp this season] I saw 80% of rotom-wash run wow but I’d say zen headbutt got a chance 2 hit ko therefore rotom-wash is decent check.

Ground type :  Hippowdon is completely wall it but I will take a chance to get frozen if u got bad luck but hippo with helmet is fine because I think metagross won’t take damage from helmet. It lack of recovery hp. 
Another ground type checkers : garchomp, landorus and gliscor can take stab moves but not ice punch.
[12:50 AM]
Mew : defensive mew with wow/twave is the one of the best metagross checkers. 

Tangrowth : defensive tangrowth[def and hp invested] can check it but need to be aware of atk boosted and frozen with ice punch.
Bisharp : life orb + sucker punch.

Faster pokemons : scarfed lando, chomp, ttar…. Sand rush excradill, banded/life orb weavile[sr up with bp got a chance to kill], tornadus with heatwave …… they can do their job imo.
[12:51 AM]
Scarfed magnezone : volt out and force metagross to take a decent damage.

As I said above it is only my opinion therefore there are lots of pokemons which are obtainable in PRO can check it. I think metagrossite should be unban for now but when the terrains are coded just ban it in that time.

 

 

We are going to talk about “How greninja broke healthy metagame” In my viewpoint.

 

There are lots of thing that can check greninja such as chansey, ferrothorn, rotom etc. but none of them can counter it.

Chansey : low kick is not even 2 hits k.o. but there is the chance to do that with stealth rock up and high roll [in case of full hp] and free to set up spike predicted chansey is to switch in as a checker then greninja can safely switch out. [stay in and get toxic, paralyzed never be a play to be honest]. Spike is the best support move for greninja to help any sweepers do their job easier. You know the move Defog and it’s exist in PRO ?

  Reveal hidden contents

 

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

 

Almost of the defoggers in PRO meta are weakness to greninja :

 [1] Rotom-wash : Hp. Grass, spike [predicted the volt switch]

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Bold : 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 205-244 (67.4 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Calm : 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 156-187 (51.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

 

 

[2] Ice weakness defoggers : Zapdos, Tornadus, Skamory and gliscor etc… [ hydro or surf]

                They are all slower and weak to icebeam, surf therefore they can’t defog in front of greninja.

 

                Ferrothron : absolutely fine to check greninja with out hp.fire and low kick but as I said below free spike on predicted switch and don’t switch out and take leech or some damage are not the play.

 

                Clefable : Gunk shot doesn’t 1 hit k.o but it doesn’t good enough to check, tbh

 

                Conkeldurr : sneak with protean or risk to get k.o. with match punch when staying in water-dark type is not a good play.

 

 

                        Greninja is fragile as you said but if you can use it properly you won’t let it take any damage, of course it’s fragile compared to metagross but there’re things can check and counter matagross imo. it’s not that hard to deal with [ sucker punch, scarfted magnezone forced to take damage from volt switch, some safe checks. Etc.]

                Grenninja’s movepool : of course every pokemon has 4 slot of moves but with its ability, I would say it’s too op because it’s stab every move and before you figure it out what set it is, your team might get ruined, of course we can check the move by double switching to check but if the hazards are up, I’m not preferred to take additional damage for free and it can learn u-turn, get a free momentum yeah ….. boom!

               

It can be dealt with all major playstyles with only 4 moves : due to the flexible playstyle and movepool I think it is because as I said we can’t figure out what set it it.

 

All I said above about the greninja, I’d said it causes the unhealthy meta. I considered those circumstances above as 6vs6 not 1vs1 because when you pvp, you have 6 pokemons as your opinion as well and to clarify this only my viewpoint why greninja should be ban.

 

                All of discussion banning pokemon I think the council made their decision with their respectable knowledge, some surveys with pvpers and they carefully consider about it, I believed. I understand you point, all of PRO players are not pvpers how pvpers can be representatives of all the people in PRO community. You might feel like your voice doesn’t be heard but It doesn’t mean they did not care about your voice. Some duty might need specific skills or people who are knowledgeable knowing pokemon in competitive way enough to get the best result of any discussion. They just “Put the right man in to the right job”.

 

Additional : https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue44/ou-to-ubers

 

That’s why I “-1” this thread.

 

Respectfully,

 

 

 

from the first 'reveal hidden contents' i get it metagross 'cant break stall' so they unban it, but other team you dont meet any stalls inside and there no sweeper can do one shot it and it seriously can kill them no matter what, little example bisharp lando garchomp cannot one shot it and metagross surely can. you think its worth to trade 2-3 pokemons just for kill 1 pokemon? when fake out extremsepeed bullet punch not affected at all for this pokemon this poke even so strong switch in when rocks around.
in other side mega mawile can break stalls so they ban it. but what if they meet bulky or hyper offense? ater 1 sd sucker punch wont kill any garchomp or lando gliscor zapdos keldeo or even popular poke atm like mega diancie or lopunny that can do worthy trade to beat. and even in 1 by 1 full hp mega mawile not able to beat mega metagross which not banned.
the same story like mega sable get bans because its counter most stall poke, but is it real in stall team they dont have any clefable inside? i believe mega sable do nothing to this poke when clefa 1 of most used poke in pro, also when already become mega, sableye wont able to face attacker like azumarill. and there some trick like double switch or prdict switch used when you know oppo with a mega sableye that make you can do 1 boost move for free or pivot to decrease it hp.

and so far i know mega sable not even have taunt beacuse it slow that means that will be free turn to use regens move for stall team. pp war started because they cant touch each other, also how it countering calm mind poke, isnt it will only be their free spam to boost?

ofc its not easy to beat megas. that what megas supposed to do. but why only wallbreakers did got ban when we also playing so many kind of team.

why only 1 side team? its seems more like stalls have to win. not gonna judge stall user or lover, i dont have problem with stalls but only bans choice

[0danobunaga]

14 minutes ago, Eric66 said:

Ok, so you think only thix exist and everything else is hard troll. With anything else, Greninja seems to be balanced. I saw that the main threat was Greninja with spikes. Than why not ban Protean Greninja with spikes? Just like we used to have the Gliscor +defog ban in the past. They could easily just ban that, but still didnt do it

Because Gliscor poison heal + defog is gen 7 mechanics and how is related with Greninja+spike and also we already said before we dont complex ban and I will answer mega alakazam part tomorrow