State of the Metagame: Kyurem

[Smogonplayer]

I think banning Kyurem would be a healthy move for the metagame. 

Some people may say "it beats stall, therefore it is good and shouldn't be banned".

The argument that I'd like to share is Kyurem vs Balance and Bulky Offense. 

Despite being a great option for dismantling bulkier teams thanks to pressure, when combined with Roost it's fairly easy for a Kyurem to 1v1 pokemon such as Clefable simply by Subbing and Roosting and once it's health is low, switch out to another pokemon to scare Clefable out then pivot back in Kyurem to roost again and repeat the whole sequence, if you manage to do this 2 or 3 times it's over for most balance teams which utilise Clefable as their answer to Kyurem.

But then think of Kyurem behind a sub, what switch ins are there? Steel types struggles to recover enough HP to resist constant Freeze Dry or Ice Beams in the late game, and pokemon such Tyranitar or fat water types like Slowbro, and Rotom-W are taking super effective damage from Freeze Dry and cannot withstand switching in constantly. 

Now you got to look into perspective of chess, a healthy piece is what can take one or 2 things but if a pokemon can take on multiple pokemon it is taking at least 1/3rd of the team. Which is bad, and unhealthy and uncompetitive. 

I think therefore, the correct move is to ban Kyurem and not to mention we got buffs such as snow, or and you know a pokemon is overpowered when it can 1v1 its checks and counters. 

[N0che]

I dont think i have enough experience to saying things, but i can say kyurem is just too good, literally can handle 3 archetypes almost by himself it say alot (rain, stall and trick room). 

Edited February 5 by N0che

[Pillowporkers69]

I ran this set before Gen 9 update to top 5 on the ladder using Ice Beam instead of Freeze Dry. The extra 16 PP is probably mighty useful for what you are trying to accomplish with this mon.

[Talz1]

Hey, i hope all of you are fine. I totaly agree with 0danobunaga.

The problem is the combination of Freeze dry + Kyurem.

 

When i see the teams used by players for face the majority of Ou poke you can see a lot of team with a ground poke + one Water + one Dragon/ Fly poke.

Here we have the problem. Freeze Dry work well for all this type of poke and Kyurem have good spd, good bulk and a insane dmg.

 

Thats make him too dangerous with this moove. Some defensiv pokemon generaly used good for counter this poke like Celesteela, Magearna cant be used in pro for counter him.

So yeah Scizor is one of the best answer true but some Kyurem can too run hp fire and its a gg.

 

To be honest i think Kyurem-black is too dangerous with this moove.

Kyurem-Black is sometime prefered for the versatility and the capacity to break defensive poke and spécial defensive poke in the same time, ad freeze dry at this poke and you get a monster.

I think its good to remember all the discussion and problem Kyurem-black have caused in other competitiv and tournament like smog tourna. 

 

 

I wish you at all a good game and ty  for the post.

Edited February 6 by Talz1

[Epithet]

Quick reminder to everyone that these threads are to be kept respectful and on-topic. Any non-constructive comments with little or no substance, any snarky or belligerent remarks, and/or anything else that is not directly related to the topic at-hand will be removed and you may be penalized for it.

[Evilprotagonist]

Kyurem was fine in gen 9 ou/nat.
Kyurem was fine in pro the last 4 years.
Pro announce gen 9 mechanics/buffs but the first roll out only apply on 1% content.
Kyurem was among the 1% that got new moves/buffs (freeze-dry).
Usage/winrate goes up.
Now we talk about punishing kyurem because a uneven application of new gen???
How i see it is either:

1. Hold on to the new gen stuff and release them in larger packs as opposed to a small trickle release which may or may not make individual who can take more advantage of em stick out to much.
2. Or simply accept that certain mons will be the "star" under the period between the release of buffs/mechanics and focus on shortening the wait period in-between releases.

 

I prefer 2 sense pro have stated that it dosnt want to copy existing story and this is a decent opportunity to lean out of previously solved meta. By creating these "mini meta" with the trickle releases ( god knows when the remaining 80% of gen 7 comes), and if a mon really stomp the win rate then sure jail it, but here its so stupid sense kyurem literly been fine for 4 years and we considering jailing it instead of just roll back on the "under planned" freeze dry buff if its really that big of a problem... (lowkey reminds me of the meme of a cop toss in planted evidence in the car then instantly arresting the driver xd).

Otherwise if you zoom out and see the picture for  what it is, which is that a mon (in this case kyurem) have been fine for 4 year, a new gen is announced but content release a very small relevant number of changes ---> one of them impact kyurem, kyurem get put in jail??? ( we literly had the same [heck] with blastoise last month, at this rate we do kyurem this month, annhilape/slowking next and bam, we back to the pre patch era!)
This pattern can literally repeat on every new trickle of new releases were "another poke" get overbuffed compare to the rest, and get slamed. ( and sense pro on average releases like 2-5 poke every year and there are like 200-500 pokes on the waiting list this can get real stupid real fast)
If the argument that kyurem being ou/nat in gen 9 is wrong and should be considered uber and hence should be banned in pro then thats that, but if thats not the argument then this whole thing is kinda stupid for introducing a problem created unnecessarily and then scramble to find a solution after creating it in the first place.

Edited February 13 by Evilprotagonist

[Pisforpenguin]

Quote

Kyurem was fine in gen 9 ou/nat.

There has been much debate if it is fine in gen 9 ou/nat dex, was even banned for a period of time before being reversed so not sure how you are able to support this. Kyurem also exists in gen 9 where you are able to run certain tera types to out position kyurem and land an unexpected kill. 

 

Quote

Kyurem was fine in pro the last 4 years.
Pro announce gen 9 mechanics/buffs but the first roll out only apply on 1% content.
Kyurem was among the 1% that got new moves/buffs (freeze-dry).
Usage/winrate goes up.
Now we talk about punishing kyurem because a uneven application of new gen???

These are not buffs they are simply the updated gen 9 learn sets, eventually everything will be in the game but that does not fall under what the PvP team is responsible for. When new mons get new tools to beat what was once counters there win rates are typically reflected. The main counter to kyurem in the last 4 years was bulky waters but with the addition of freeze dry it is able to circumvent this.

 

Quote

1. Hold on to the new gen stuff and release them in larger packs as opposed to a small trickle release which may or may not make individual who can take more advantage of em stick out to much.
2. Or simply accept that certain mons will be the "star" under the period between the release of buffs/mechanics and focus on shortening the wait period in-between releases.

Again as part of the PvP team we are not responsible for what is released and the speed of its release. New tms are coming with the PvP chests, but other mons that gained moves through level up change or tms that are already existing in the game. Some examples are dual wingbeat salamence or sludge wave greninja. To address your second point yes its not out of the ordinary for mons to stand out during these temporary "pocket metas" but when they become extremely over bearing in kyurems case having ~65% wr with sub roost set and having a 70%+ wr with specs this is an outlier which we look to address. Also just because something is banned temporarily does not exclude it from returning in the future when more is released. 

 

Quote

Otherwise if you zoom out and see the picture for  what it is, which is that a mon (in this case kyurem) have been fine for 4 year, a new gen is announced but content release a very small relevant number of changes ---> one of them impact kyurem, kyurem get put in jail??? ( we literly had the same [heck] with blastoise last month, at this rate we do kyurem this month, annhilape/slowking next and bam, we back to the pre patch era!)

Are implying blastoise/kyurem are on the same level as annihilape or slowking and those also need to be banned? Please elaborate if so because the impacts these mons have are far less than blastoise/greninja/kyurem.

 

Quote

If the argument that kyurem being ou/nat in gen 9 is wrong and should be considered uber and hence should be banned in pro then thats that, but if thats not the argument then this whole thing is kinda stupid for introducing a problem created unnecessarily and then scramble to find a solution after creating it in the first place.

Pro has a completely different environment and meta than smogon tiers. And this unnecessary problem you keep referencing is due to mechanic updates which would have to come eventually since that is the current direction the game wants to go towards. You want every new piece of content dropped immediately,(everything missing from 7 through 9) but this is simply not possible.

[Mr2lucke]

Only ban kyurem with freezy dry and all are resolved

[Idkup]

Kyurem is overcentralizing.

Kyurem is a 6-0 machine against unprepared teams.

Kyurem alone renders queueing up Mega Swampert Rain tantamount to wintrading.

Kyurem makes constructing traditional balance teams an absolute nightmare.

 

I don't think Kyurem is broken. It is not the only reason balance feels impossible to play, and as a unit that relies on its uninvested natural bulk to function, it itself suffers from many of the same issues that plague balance as a whole. Offense has been king in PRO for quite some time now, and I think there is a different discussion that is worth having about the metagame at large.

 

It is functionally impossible to reliably remove Stealth Rock, unless you know your opponent's sets either because you've played them before, your guild has, or your friends have.

 

Let's take a look at the state of our hazard removal. The only viable Rapid Spin user is Excadrill. Defensive Excadrill sets have been pushed to the wayside by offensive powercreep since about 2016, and offensive ones may remove Stealth Rock once or twice, but that's far from its main role and it is far from good at it - Excadrill certainly does not scare out Garchomp or Landorus-T. Tornadus-T is weak to Stealth Rock, and currently generally runs offensive EVs to make its Supersonic Skystrike hit harder. It's one of our better options, but is liable to being worn down over time (by definition, removing Stealth Rock with Tornadus-T means it is at 75%), and is not living Stone Edges or Z-nukes from any of our offensive hazard setters. Utility Serperior works in a pinch, but has no recovery bar the unreliable Synthesis, which it can never fit on a set. Zapdos is weak to Stealth Rock itself and is generally tasked with checking Mega Lopunny - something it cannot do reliably if it enters the field at 75% HP. It too is liable to getting nuked by offensive Z-SR sets. Landorus-T has longevity issues, as it is frequently used as a blanket check, and more importantly usually belongs on the sort of team that would rather trade Stealth Rock with its opponent than remove them from both sides. Gliscor is quite good at removing Stealth Rock - however, Defog Gliscor sets often do little else besides removing items or checking Heatran. Rotom-Wash is a traditional balance staple - but also a loss condition in the face of Substitute Kyurem. Its bulk also does not hold up nearly as well in a world with Z-moves, but also no Toxapex to take advantage of to pivot freely. Instead, Slowking takes pitiful damage from uninvested Volt Switch and seizes momentum itself with its slower Chilly Reception. Defog Skarmory is a niche option which deals with many of the physical Stealth Rock setters well, but virtually commits you to playing Stall. Furthermore, all Defoggers must deal with the specter of Defiant Eviolite Bisharp and to a lesser extent Annihilape, which makes the choice to remove Stealth Rock often a trade of a long-term annoyance for an immediate short-term crisis. In contrast, we have a wide array of Pokemon that are very good at keeping Stealth Rock up against virtually anything - Z or Taunt Landorus-T, Z or bulky Garchomp, MG Clefable, Mega Diancie, Mold Breaker Excadrill, Offensive Tyranitar, Z Heatran, Z Kommo-o...

 

Why is this relevant?

 

Both Substitute and Specs Kyurem are Pokemon that thrive off coming in on the double switch or a safe pivot move from a teammate, such as Mega Scizor's U-Turn, Slowbro's Teleport, or Rotom-Wash's Volt Switch. These repeated free switches with very limited safe answers and the risk of Freeze from primary STAB are the heart of Kyurem's oppressive gameplay cycle. However, there are no free switches when Stealth Rock is on the field. Losing a quarter of its HP renders Kyurem in KO range of many strong and fast attackers and greatly limits the amount of times it can afford to fish for freeze. It also limits the amount of PP Substitute Kyurem can remove from an erstwhile check before being forced into uncomfortable mindgames. When Kyurem is allowed to play its game unmolested, it is absolutely worthy of a ban - however, I would argue that no competent player should be allowing this to happen on anything resembling a consistent basis.

 

Another aspect I think is sometimes underappreciated about Kyurem's presence in PRO is that Kyurem-Black's legality actually makes regular Kyurem significantly easier to play against. Z- and boosting item sets tend to be the sole provenance of Kyurem-Black, making it relatively easy to assume that the unfused Kyurem you are facing in team preview is in fact SubRoost or Choiced.

 

Finally, the archetypes that Kyurem destroys were not very good to begin with. With or without Kyurem, Rain has a disaster matchup against Chilly Reception Slowking, Aurora Veil, and many variants of offense. With or without Kyurem, Balance is not going to recover unless a litany of other gigantic offensive threats are removed and hazard removal achieves some sort of relative parity with hazard setting (or a certain item is released). As for Stall, well, it deals with SubRoost Kyurem surprisingly well. Calm CM Unaware Clefable was already forced for reliable counterplay to threats like Z-Bug Volcarona, Manaphy, and LO MG Clefable. With Wish and Heal Bell support, it has no problem sitting in front of standard SubRoost Kyurem forever - even when it gets frozen. Aurora Veil, on paper, is simply favored - Ninetales-Alola is one of Kyurem's better checks, and Kyurem should never really be able to come in more than once or twice. Other offensive teams are similar in this regard.

 

I am not going to lose any sleep over Kyurem potentially getting banned. However, from my perspective, it warrants tiering action about as much as Volcarona - that is to say, perhaps in theory, but not at all in practice.

Edited Wednesday at 03:53 AM by Idkup