pvp rules Ranked PvP Rules.

[Zinsmiter]

Thanks for the compilation Daen. I don't see anything wrong in what you wrote. You basically listed all the points.

 

Another thing. It's important that people understand just how powerful this effect is and how little Gothitelle needs to do in order for the opponent's team to fall apart. I was always suprised that not more people were using Gothitelle, but maybe they just don't like using it. I know i don't.

 

Something as simple as safely removing a defensive Starmie with rapid spin while following up with a load of entry hazards alone can completely ruin a team with close to no effort. This pokemon does not have to 1v6 the opponent's team to be highly effective.

[Tymerod]

289338

I can't quotes everyone's comments about Shadow Tag, because its just too much, you can search it on search bar about Shadow Tag and Gothitelle being banned, i found more than 100 post about that. You can check that here: https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/search.php?keywords=shadow+tag&t=33054&sf=msgonly and https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/search.php?keywords=shadow+tag&t=34240&sf=msgonly. Hopefully all quotes above is enough to make Shadow Tag banned from Ladder PvP.

In my opinion, Shadow Tag should be banned, its not all about how many counters or weakness that this Pokemon has, because we battle not only using 1 vs 1 Pokemon, we battle with 6 vs 6 Pokemon, so this Pokemon weakness can be covered with other Pokemon, so yeah, dont talk about counters because every Pokemon has their own weakness.

I will sum up in here why Shadow Tag should be banned because:

1. This game lack of team preview. We don't have team preview which is making this Pokemon being unpredictable and yes this can give this Pokemon free win almost againts all spatck/ balance/ stall Pokemon.

2. Since shadow tag prevent you from switching, well.. you cannot counter it and it demolish stall teams by getting +6 with Calm mind and before ripping the team apart.

3. We don't have complete items, abilities, movesets also Pokemon yet. E.g. pursuit/ life orb/ etc, so hard to one-KO this Pokemon.

4. Popular Pokemon Battle Simulator, Showdown, has their reason to ban this Pokemon, you can check it here: https://www.smogon.com/articles/ou-suspect-sableye-shadow-tag.

5. Its just not fun spamming calm mind and rest, repeat it over and over again to buff and other side cant do anything about this, with more than 10-20 turns to set this buff.

6. PvP become not competitive anymore because we allowed this broken ability in ladder

7. Its not about banning Shadow Tag can change the meta of the game or systems or other reason, hopefully ladder tier is coming soon, so everyone who already has this Pokemon not becoming useless because they still can use this Pokemon in Uber tier.

 

Anyways, this is just my opinion and reason about this ability. I'm sorry if i said something wrong, just wanna make PvP environment become competitive. Thank you ^^

 

It's interesting how different the arguments are in smogon and PRO. Smogon has big concerns about the trickscarf set which cripples a lot of physical attackers and pokemons relying on setting up like clefable which would counter a calm mind goth with unaware (trickscarf isnt implemented in PRO). PRO players are concerned about the "getting to +6 with calm mind for free and sweeping the enemy afterwards" (PRO misses unaware and pursuit).

 

Smogon also states that "Primarily, Gothitelle seems to be the only problem. Why ban an entire ability when it seems to have only one primary offender?" and that shadow tag and other trapping abilities (like arena trap) arent banned in every tier (e.g. little cup).

... This pokemon does not have to 1v6 the opponent's team to be highly effective.

 

So i ask again, why not limit the movepool before banning an ability and make all the pokemons completely useless? Deny Gothitelle the moves it abuses (calm mind and in the future trick) and see if its still broken and if so there can be further actions but i heavily doubt the second

[Zinsmiter]

Not sure what you mean by "all the pokemons". There are just Gothitelle and Wobbuffet with Shadow Tag in PRO and Arena Trap doesn't work in PRO and is also not banned in OU on Smogon. I'd take making Shadow Tag pokemon useless over destroying fundamental game mechanics in the entire meta any day.

 

Considering PRO's mostly stall meta and the lack of offensive items, Gothitelle is also a bigger threat than on Smogon aside from possible Choice item/trick shenanigans and you cannot even prepare for it since there is no team preview. You talk about PRO players just being concerned about getting to +6 with calm mind and sweeping a team. This was exactly why i mentioned the case with the Starmie. To illustrate that this is not the only thing it can do effectively. The rest of the reasons have already been brought up.

 

Also, this was in relation to the staff saying that they are mostly following Smogon's rules. There have been countless of posts regarding Shadow Tag and not a single post on the new Baton Pass rule or any discussions. Still they just ban it with one line linking to Smogon which in the same way is not the same environment as PRO, as you brought up yourself, especially considering the lack of various items, moves and abilities abused with it.

[Parasfm]

Still this stall steams should be banned too lol with no correct itens a team full of stall its not a fun battle ( ban weiii stalls and others lol).

[Guest SugarRed9]

289645 Still this stall steams should be banned too lol with no correct itens a team full of stall its not a fun battle ( ban weiii stalls and others lol).

Stalls beatable, dunno bout other servers but on yellow we have some offensive teams that do really well vs stall teams.

[Tymerod]

289640 Not sure what you mean by "all the pokemons". There are just Gothitelle and Wobbuffet with Shadow Tag in PRO and Arena Trap doesn't work in PRO and is also not banned in OU on Smogon. I'd take making Shadow Tag pokemon useless over destroying fundamental game mechanics in the entire meta any day.

 

Considering PRO's mostly stall meta and the lack of offensive items, Gothitelle is also a bigger threat than on Smogon aside from possible Choice item/trick shenanigans and you cannot even prepare for it since there is no team preview. You talk about PRO players just being concerned about getting to +6 with calm mind and sweeping a team. This was exactly why i mentioned the case with the Starmie. To illustrate that this is not the only thing it can do effectively. The rest of the reasons have already been brought up.

 

Also, this was in relation to the staff saying that they are mostly following Smogon's rules. There have been countless of posts regarding Shadow Tag and not a single post on the new Baton Pass rule or any discussions. Still they just ban it with one line linking to Smogon which in the same way is not the same environment as PRO, as you brought up yourself, especially considering the lack of various items, moves and abilities abused with it.

 

the example of Starmie was already fact before we have seen Gothitelle. Forretress as a rapid spinner or Scizor as one of the few defogger we currently have are trapped and killed by magnezone. If we get arena trap dugtrio has a 25% chance to OHKO tentacruel (with 220 def) after stealth rock. Skarmory or Empoleon (as potential defoger once we get defog tm) are trapped and 1HP'd/killed by magnezone. U can make the same case for entry hazard setters or that a dugtrio OHKO's your sun setter Ninetales or your electric absorber in your rain team or the electric type in your enemy team if your running a rain team or ...

Just because a trapper is able to take out a key threat isnt IMO a reason to bann trapping. U bann/limit mechanics because they can be exploited. And Gothitelle is exploiting the fact that it can trapp and kill key threats while boosting two stats to +6 and recover all hp lost. And if u take away calm mind u make rest unreliable (with chesto berry it's a one time use) and it ends as a normal trapper trading 1 for 2 at max and 1 for 1 in 90% of cases and that's not overpowered or toxic.

[Guest YourMomGr]

half of the rules are stupid:

-batton pass rule is stupid cause 50% of the time batton pass gets bugged and cant transfer the stats thats why we dont see any batton pass teams

-evasion clause is not needed when evasion moves doesnt work and instead of also where is the brightpowder ban(not working as well)

-and yeah people are right that ubers should all be banned but in smogon the biggest advantage of shadow tag pokes are:for wobuffet to face choise item users(they get locked on move and simply die with a mirror coat or counter and for gothitelle the trick scarf set that makes a tank useless(both of these ideas cant work on pro)as the speed boost blaziken cant be used as well cause of no protect in game or protean greninja is not coded

 

so instead of just adding more useless rules and bans lets first fix this half finished pvp aspect of the game and by fix i mean adding all the stuff that smogon had years ago and therefor made these rules we are trying so hard ro copy.IF SOMEONE HAD STRESSED SHANE TO CODE ALL ABILITIES AND ALL MOVES BY ADDING JUST 2 EVERY WEEK WE WOULD BE ABLE TO JUST COPY PASTE SMOGON RULES AND MAKE PVP BALANCED NOW OUR EFFORTS ARE MEANINGLESS RESULTING IN REDUCING THE USABLE POKEMON POOL EVEN MORE

[Hiddenability]

"Shed Shell", I don't know if this item has in-game yet or not but instead of banning shadow tag,"Shed Shell" make a better solution for all of that, losing a Pokemon by getting trapped is really a disaster because in PRO you can't see which Pokemon are OP using, It make magnet pull or shadow tag become a horror with player and don't have any safe solution for it. Ofc when your Pokemon hold item "Shed Shell", that mean you must sacrifice their own item for this, this is fair for both sides. This game currently is a cycle, Shadow tag destroy stall Pokemon, then you play a team with no stall Pokemon, you make shadow tag become useless but get destroyed by other Stall, Hazards Pokemon...

[Guest LiquidSnakeK]

-snip the salt-

I wouldn't say they're stupid per se. None of the rules currently implemented in PRO are hindering anyone atm. So baton pass is currently not working properly, so whats the big deal of it having a clause so you can't use it for blaziken? If it's bugged nobody gonna use it anyways.

 

While I would love to see some more pvp oriented moves/abilities coded into the game, these things take time. You make it sound like its simple. When in reality it may or may not be. But you don't know that.

[Zinsmiter]

289729 the example of Starmie was already fact before we have seen Gothitelle. Forretress as a rapid spinner or Scizor as one of the few defogger we currently have are trapped and killed by magnezone. If we get arena trap dugtrio has a 25% chance to OHKO tentacruel (with 220 def) after stealth rock. Skarmory or Empoleon (as potential defoger once we get defog tm) are trapped and 1HP'd/killed by magnezone. U can make the same case for entry hazard setters or that a dugtrio OHKO's your sun setter Ninetales or your electric absorber in your rain team or the electric type in your enemy team if your running a rain team or ...

Just because a trapper is able to take out a key threat isnt IMO a reason to bann trapping. U bann/limit mechanics because they can be exploited. And Gothitelle is exploiting the fact that it can trapp and kill key threats while boosting two stats to +6 and recover all hp lost. And if u take away calm mind u make rest unreliable (with chesto berry it's a one time use) and it ends as a normal trapper trading 1 for 2 at max and 1 for 1 in 90% of cases and that's not overpowered or toxic.

 

 

This has already been discussed numerous times and it's clear that Magnezone being able to trap only steel types are much more of a niche than gothitelle. Dugtrio has terrible stats other than speed and is a huge disadvantage to a team if there is no key targets it can kill which is also why Smogon has not banned it.

 

Again, everything else in regards to counterplay among others against Shadow Tag has already been said. If you personally like a game where it's an unwritten rule that we start the game with safely removing pokemon from the opponent's team without him having any interactive counterplay is fun, feel free to. A lot of people including myself do not think this is either balanced or fun.

289748 -evasion clause is not needed when evasion moves doesnt work and instead of also where is the brightpowder ban(not working as well)

 

 

I'm pretty sure evasion works now though.

289755 While I would love to see some more pvp oriented moves/abilities coded into the game, these things take time. You make it sound like its simple. When in reality it may or may not be. But you don't know that.

 

I'm sure it's not simple for all moves. Like U-turn for example. However, I think a lot of moves and abilities are quite simple to make and considering updates in the past it should be able to be done faster than what little progress there has been for a while.