PVP Feedback - Landorus

[Somyakant]

Plz ban landorus-t. Cuz it's kinda unfair in PvP many pokes can't even endure one or two hits from it

Edited May 22, 2020 by somyakant

[Captaineg]

There should definitely be restrictions on legends in pvp. Some players are not rightly keen on legends. Due to the nature of the Pokemon, for example, I only use normal Pokemon. I don't like the myths getting stuck in a pokeball. This pokemon should definitely not have high stat values. In addition, sheer force is an incredible force.

[Aggs]

Um I believe that was ash-greninja, which we do not have. Greninja is 100% legal in gen 7 OU.

Neither Ash Gren nor Protean Gren are banned in Gen7OU, however, in Gen6OU, Greninja was banned in a similar fashion that Lando-I was in Gen6OU.

 

 

And here is the part where I might be disrespectful, but arena trap was banned, beacuse Chansey/Blissey users couldnt take it anymore the fact that a Dugtrio killed what other things couldnt do.

Yeah, Blissey/Chansey get trapped by Dugtrio. But you know what's worse? Your Wallbreaker getting trapped, and you are against stall. A Dugtrio Stall is absolutely choking the metagame it exists in. A response to the old Dugtrio Unban thread:

This ability traps way too many Pokemons and it's a bad thing(only ghosts, flying ad levitating pokemons aren't trapped).

3) Would power up too much the stall archetype, cause it would trap and eliminate most of the stallbreakers(and wallbreakers as well) in the game, and this would create a huge imbalance.

 

 

To complete what you said we must add that Manaphy was Uber in BW.

I don't think we can compare Manaphy's ban in BW to PRO, as weather from Abilities was Permanent unless changed otherwise are not exactly available to us in PRO.

 

 

 

There should definitely be restrictions on legends in pvp. Some players are not rightly keen on legends. Due to the nature of the Pokemon, for example, I only use normal Pokemon. I don't like the myths getting stuck in a poketop. This pokemon should definitely not have high stat values. In addition, sheer force is an incredible force.

 

Pokemon deemed too unhealthy are banned, and ones that are not either stay, or fall off. It's the same with legendaries that are not box-arts. A Pokemon's Legendary or Mythical status hasn't affected its viability, and would have the same impact overall if it were a regular Pokemon.

 

 

Lando-I, in my eyes, promotes a faster metagame. The shift may be difficult at first, but I assure you that it being difficult in the beginning is normal. I don't believe that Lando-I is going to put a chokehold on the meta, but more of a presence that just can't be forgotten. This faster meta, I assume, wants to revolve around somewhere between 309(Jolly Lando-T) and 328(Base 100, such as Manaphy). Of course, there are going to be the faster mons, and the slower ones, but this is just to give a general idea. Currently, I would say we are fluttering around 259(Ada Dragonite) and 284(Probably Toge's fault entirely), or 302(Jolly Excadrill), but its nothing objective. I just hope that the accessibility of the Kami Trio will shift us enough to the point of balance between as many team archetypes as possible.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Aggs

[Luharrr]

To complete what you said we must add that Manaphy was Uber in BW.

 

Manaphy was Uber in BW because it was way too strong in the permanent rain of BW OU as well as it had access to tail glow, calm mind, and rest, paired with Hydration. Here are some calcs from some mons in the OU tier at the time you would consider as its "counters":

• +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 179-211 (50.8 - 59.9%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  
• +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  
• +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Rain: 283-334 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
  
• +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 310-366 (44 - 51.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO
  
• +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 253-298 (59.3 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  
• +3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 138-162 (38 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
  

I woke up like an hour ago and don't feel like doing the calcs myself. Just looking at them makes me disgusted at how good it was back then. The only real counters this thing had were Vaporeon or Jellicent and it only worked if Manaphy was not running energy ball. It literally had zero counters. But, I don't think discussing Manaphy is relevant to the thread.

 

Credit to Jorogumo for the calcs when I was too lazy to look for them or make them myself.

Edited May 22, 2020 by LUHARRR

[Nakofum]

Holà,

 

I've done 129 games in Ranked PVP this month. And you know what ? I didn't meet any Landorus-Incarnate.

I also didn't play it at all. And i'm pretty sure the amount of person who played/faced it is pretty pretty low.

 

So I'm answering you, how should we do a suspect test if the mon is not even played ?

I can bring some arguments which will be totally theoretical (like your ban baton pass, because apparently only 4 players on both server know how to play it), or I should also give some arguments from Smogon, but will they really work ? No, because we're on PRO.

 

If you want to do a real suspect test, prepare a procedure, a process so that the mon is tested in a good and fair way. But this thread is, in my opinion, absurd, with all due respect.

 

Fum.

[Speedy]

Also, staff is not looking for "Ban because is forbidden in showdown" comments, we want actual reasons (why it should be banned or why not, with sceneries for example). Like some persons did.

If you want creat your metagame ban every pokemons with 50% usage on showdown like landorus

[Vithu96]

I would like to specify that I am in favor of a Landorus ban. Now that I got that out of the way, I would like to mention a few things. Do not blindly follow Smogon. Why? Because, by that logic, Greninja should also be banned as it was in the Uber tier in ORAS OU and was only made more bearable in USUM OU thanks to new additions such as Toxapex, Tapu Fini, and whatnot. This is an important point because following Smogon entails banning Greninja and only unbanning it in the future. I would also like to remind all our Smogon lovers that Greninja was suspect tested before Landorus in ORAS OU. In fact, Greninja received more pro-ban votes than Landorus did. PRO was able to adapt to Greninja, which is still extremely strong on paper, yet somehow keeps underperforming. There are various reasons for this, such as the priority spam, but this is not a post about Greninja. I only brought it up to showcase why PRO is inherently different than Showdown and should abide by its own rules. "Smogon banned it, therefore it should be banned in PRO" is a moot point. Can you tell me why you think Landorus should be banned? There are certainly several pro-ban arguments that are applicable to PRO. However, I would like to tell you guys why it should not be banned and let you figure out why you so adamantly want it banned.

 

ABR gave some good anti-ban arguments during the Landorus suspect test. In PRO, Landorus has the potential to beat all of its checks, with the exception of Cresselia, but is unable to beat all of them at the same time. In this, Landorus is somewhat similar to Greninja and Manaphy. It does not have a 4MSS since it can still effectively do its job with the moves that it picks. What do you run on Landorus? There are so many sets! Earth Power is mandatory, but the other options are so varied: Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Psychic, Hidden Power Ice, Knock Off, Rock Polish, Calm Mind, etc. On Showdown, everyone was able to use and abuse a perfect Landorus with HP Ice and 331 speed (which is above the critical 328-speed tier). How many people have a good Landorus with HP Ice? Without HP Ice, which is hard to get, Landorus is prone to losing to Gliscor, Landorus-T, and many more threats. In general, depending on its set, Landorus-T can be easily revenge killed (especially if it chooses to run Calm Mind over Rock Polish) or even checked by the likes of Skarmory, Tornadus-T, Gliscor, Chansey, Latios/Latias, Gyarados, Slowking, Cresselia, etc. Can it beat all of them (minus Cresselia)? Yes, of course, but it is unable to beat all of them at once! Scout before attempting to check Landorus with your Gliscor or Chansey. On top of that, it is not easy to get Landorus in for free with the way that U-turn and Volt Switch work in PRO. Due to how rarely used Landorus is, players might not necessarily always prepare for it. You also have to choose between Landorus and Landorus-T, since you are unable to use both. However, the lack of preparation for Landorus is not a pro-ban argument. Why? Because Landorus is not overcentralizing to an unhealthy extent; many of its checks are naturally used on several teams and will remain highly viable long after Landorus gets the chop.

 

Do you know what is actually quite overcentralizing in PRO at the moment? Manaphy. That is something you have to be specifically prepared for in order to avoid getting 6-0'd. Power Whip Ferrothorn, Unaware Clefable, Chansey, priority users, and faster threats are all increasingly common. Yet, Manaphy is able to beat all those threats with the right coverage: HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Rain Dance for Chansey, maybe Mystic Water and a Modest nature for most Unaware Clefable sets, barring perhaps the uncommon Calm Unaware set, etc. Somewhat similarly to Landorus, Manaphy is able to beat all its checks, but cannot beat them all at once.

 

Despite everything I just said, I am in favor of a Landorus ban. I have read and researched enough to make up my own opinion on the matter. Does it mean that I am unable to acknowledge arguments that do not align with what I think? No, absolutely not! We should not be too Manichean or too categorical. In Landorus' case, I believe that the pro-ban arguments far outweigh the anti-ban arguments. This is why it should be banned, in my opinion. But do all of you know what the valid pro-ban arguments are? Have you even seen enough of Landorus in PvP to make such a definitive pro-ban decision?

 

This.

[Qeight]

116 Matches - 62 wins - 53,4% Winrate on Gold

423 Matches - 236 Wins - 55,79% Winrate on Silver

This is for people with above 200 rating.

 

This in on par with other things based on usage stats however I would suspect some are higher if you filter out bad players and only filter by rating +200.

 

Greninja? People cried and wanted it banned, it got coded because it wouldn't stay banned.

Shaymin-Sky? It was insta banned and people complained about it being an option against Manaphy and that we are dumb for banning it.

Baton Pass? We get yelled at for banning it in a test-period while its banned on Showdown.

Now with Lando people come and yell its "Uber","its banned on Showdown/Smogon".

 

PRO is not a battle simulator, it's not showdown/smogon or that other unnamed Pokemon MMO.

 

I wanted a PvP council because of this fact, people don't know what they want, especially in this community. There are like 5 people in this thread who understood this thread for example: Jorogumo

 

 

It seems like we can't win regardless of what we do, any and all PvP suggestions by me got instantly shutdown to change up the meta like rotating bans to allow a more versatile PvP game but at this point, I can just really say. Enjoy your 6 tanks and 1 hour matches. From the looks of it and people complaining about it, it's gonna get banned but really its just meh.

[Jumplebow]

I am not in favor of banning him.

Having played landorus h.a on PRO (30atk/28spd/22spatk), i can say that it is definetly strong. You could compare it to conkeldurr when it came out (and had no checks) or manaphy/rain teams. He is strong in the PRO meta. He checks pokemon slower than him easily. But wasn't that the case for manaphy and conkeldurr ? How many people abused those pokes, even easier to get than landorus ? He is not broken to the point where he outspeed and ohko everything actually, jolly garchomp is faster than him,18.8% chance to OHKO with outrage (on a perfect landorus with life orb), infernape hp ice can ohko it while being much faster, dragonite can tank a hit, set up and kill lando, gengar hits 80% of his life at the very least (with shadow ball), and gengar even has access to icy wind. My point is, he's strong, not broken. You can easily counter him, it's just that people aren't used to it yet (the majority). They are many other pokes you can use to counter him even without ice shard. If you want the meta to change, i think it would be worth a shot to keep him a few months longer to see if players can adapt to his playstyle, especially because not many people have landorus h.a now, so not everyone can play against it. How many people will have an hp ice lando ? we're not on sd, people don't get perfect landorus. They invest in it to get something pvpable, with no garentee of it working.

 

Lastly, here are some pokes that check landorus pretty easily that i haven't mentionned yet:

 

Azumarill aqua jet

aerodactyl icy fang

weavile

mamoswine

kyurem scarf

latios/latias ice beam

rotom hydro-bump

bulky assault vest conkeldurr icy punch

manaphy

chansey/blissey

any ice atk choice scarfed

skarmory, bronzong

Medicham scarfed

Landorus's poor bulk leaves it vulnerable to most faster threats.

 

I'm sure there are many others. Pokemon is a game where you have to adapt and overcome, remember when you couldn't beat brock with your charmander ? it's exactly the same, don't expect the meta to change to your tastes.

Be creative, it's up to you to adapt to the meta and climb the ladder.

[Benikisaki]

Why can't we just instantly ignore every Showdown/Smogon based comment and focus only on what's actually relevant to PRO?

Honestly, I am sick of using another game (actually a simulator) to take decisions and make arguments about PRO.