[PvP Council] Suggestions and requests regarding current PvP bans

[Jorogumo]

Suggestions and requests regarding current PvP bans

 

Hello, everyone!

 

The purpose of this thread is to allow players to formulate requests, proposals, and suggestions for potential change or improvement regarding current PvP bans in a manner that would indicate an alternative course of action. For example, if you disagree with a specific ban, please feel free to argue against it. I hope that this thread can serve as a way to better communication between the PvP Council and the rest of the players, especially those who may not frequently check Council-related PRO Discord channels. Moreover, this post should provide the playerbase with an exhaustive list of everything that is currently banned from Normal Ranked PvP, as well as the (brief) reasoning behind each individual ban. As there are several bans, there are multiple items to discuss one by one. I also plan to use the forums to publish future PRO PvP surveys and survey results in an effort to reach a larger number of players and organize all survey-related information in a single thread for more clarity and accessibility in the future. A third thread where players would be able to forward any suggestions or recommendations for PvP Council discussion or metagame improvement is potentially in the works, since this one is exclusively limited to current PvP bans.

 

All of the following items are banned from the queue known as Normal Ranked PvP. Here they are in alphabetical order:

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• Aegislash. At first, Aegislash was allowed with King’s Shield and quickly made a name for itself as the most centralizing Pokémon in the metagame. King’s Shield was then banned, in August 2020, in an attempt to keep it unbanned and in check by limiting its effectiveness. However, as it turned out, Aegislash was still a menace to most playstyles. Its versatility and unpredictability, combined with its unmatched offensive and defensive capabilities, ultimately pushed it over the top and made it an overcentralizing presence in the metagame, even without access to King’s Shield. It was banned in April 2021.

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• Arena Trap. Arena Trap removed one of the main features of competitive Pokémon: the ability to switch. Unlike Magnet Pull, its targets were far greater in number (i.e., all grounded Pokémon that are not Ghost types). The main culprit, Dugtrio, enabled several offensive threats by removing their checks and counters from the game. Moreover, despite being an offensively oriented Pokémon, Dugtrio was able to fit on stall teams by eliminating some of the strongest stallbreakers and wallbreakers in the metagame, like Heatran and Choice Band Tyranitar. Other Arena Trap users were never seriously considered in PRO. When the mechanics of the game transitioned from being Gen 6-based to being Gen-7 based, Dugtrio’s Base ATK went from 80 to 100. This prompted many players to request its ban. Arena Trap was deemed uncompetitive and was consequently banned in April 2018.

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• Baby XD001. Baby XD001 was the first unofficial Pokémon added to PRO. Inspired by Shadow Lugia, codenamed XD001, it had an unusual dual typing: Shadow / Flying. The Shadow type offensively allowed it to inflict STAB-less super effective damage to every other type except itself. Furthermore, all moves besides Shadow-type ones dealt neutral damage to it, thus virtually rendering it a pure Flying type from a strictly defensive perspective. Baby XD001’s base stats were as follows: 20 ATK, 105 DEF, 100 SPD, 55 SPATK, 110 SPDEF, and 70 HP. As far as the prospect of an unofficial Pokémon with a new, unfamiliar typing goes, the PvP Council and the polled community were both split. Therefore, Baby XD001 remained banned. This happened in October 2021.

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• Baton Pass. Baton Pass referred to more than just a move; it represented a playstyle centered on passing accumulated boosts to Pokémon capable of taking advantage of them to sweep the opposition. This behavior was limited by the Baton Pass clause, which stated that teams could only carry a single Baton Pass user and that said user could not simultaneously boost its Speed and other stats. This effectively resulted in Speed Boost Scolipede becoming the main Baton Passer on Baton Pass teams. Speed abusers included Pokémon such as Manaphy and Togekiss. While Substitute was not yet coded at the time, Scolipede adapted and still managed to excel as a Baton Passer. Due to the uncompetitive, matchup-reliant, and luck-based nature of Baton Pass teams, the Staff team then decided, in April 2020, to revoke the Baton Pass clause and ban the move as a whole instead. This was initially announced as a test period, but the change, most likely deemed positive, remained in effect.

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• Battle Bond Greninja. Battle Bond Greninja was released during the 2020 Halloween event and was only allowed for the PvP season of October 2020. The fastest Megas were still unreleased and Ash-Greninja ended up outpacing the entire viable metagame. Offensive and defensive countermeasures were insufficient, with some players resorting to gimmicky checks, like Poliwrath, or exploitable ones, like Chansey, even on offense. After activating Battle Bond, it even had access to one of the most powerful priority moves in the game in Water Shuriken. Overall, Ash-Greninja made steady progress throughout every match and promoted passive (counter)play, which facilitated laying down Spikes on telegraphed switches. It quickly became centralizing to an unhealthy extent and, before its presence could begin to hurt the viability of multiple playstyles, Battle Bond Greninja was banned in November 2020.

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• Blazikenite. Unsurprisingly, Mega Blaziken was never allowed in Ranked PvP. Its Fire / Fighting coverage was bolstered by two powerful STAB moves in Flare Blitz and High Jump Kick. Its Ability, Speed Boost, perfectly complemented its offensive stats, allowing it to fulfill the dual role of a wallbreaker and a sweeper. Mega Blaziken had a good match-up against offensive and defensive teams, while totally dismantling balanced builds in the process. The list of Pokémon able to check it reliably was also too limited. The PvP Council almost unanimously agreed that it would put an unbearable strain on the teambuilder, would require futile overpreparation, would generate an unhealthy amount of unstoppable sweeps, and would hurt the growth of several playstyles in an ever-evolving metagame that had just undergone massive changes, including the release of the second wave of Megas. Blazikenite was swiftly banned in November 2020.

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• Darkrai. Darkrai was on a list of pre-banned Pokémon before its release. Dark Void’s accuracy used to be 80% before dropping to 50% in the transition of PRO from Gen 6 mechanics to Gen 7 ones, thus making the move a low-risk, high-reward prospect that would have complemented the Ability Bad Dreams perfectly. Darkrai also had access to Nasty Plot, a move that would have allowed it to muscle past special walls with ease. Boasting high power and one of the best Speed tiers in the metagame (at the time), Darkrai would have undoubtedly terrorized the PvP scene with just a couple of damaging moves.

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• Genesect. In July 2017, the pre-banned Genesect made its PRO debut with an Ability that worked in reverse. Players who met certain requirements were then asked to vote on Genesect – alongside Gothitelle and Blaziken – to gauge whether there would be sufficient support to test it. Unfortunately, the majority opposed this testing phase and Genesect has remained banned ever since. Aside from its power and typing, it could generate momentum in an unprecedented manner and make progress no matter what. Its versatility and unpredictability were also deemed outstanding. Indeed, Genesect boasted a wide array of viable items, moves, and sets. As a result, it was known for having almost no safe switch-ins.

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• Gengarite. Gengarite, released during the 2020 Halloween event, was instantly banned due to Mega Gengar possessing the already banned Ability Shadow Tag. Usually at its best against defensive and, to a lesser degree, balanced teams, Shadow Tag Mega Gengar would be able to target and remove specific threats with extreme ease, thus paving the way for an easy victory. Its stats, power, and utility would allow it to excel at performing multiple roles at once. Had Shadow Tag somehow not been banned, Mega Gengar would have still almost certainly been banned on the spot due to the low-risk, (almost) guaranteed-reward nature of its kit. Gengarite was banned in October 2020.

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• OHKO moves. The one-hit KO clause, implemented in July 2016, effectively banned the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, and Sheer Cold from Ranked PvP. Despite their low accuracy, these moves could drastically change the course of a match by potentially devaluing the importance of skill and rewarding the luckiest player instead of the most skillful one. Therefore, these specific high-risk, high-reward gimmicks were quickly ejected from a then primitive PvP environment striving for fairness and competitiveness.

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• Lucarionite. Lucarionite was unanimously banned by the PvP Council in January 2022 as soon as its release became public knowledge. Aside from being an offensive powerhouse with limited, situational checks and almost no guaranteed switch-ins, Mega Lucario is notable for its unpredictability and versatility, which allow it to run physically and specially offensive sets. Furthermore, its good Speed tier of 112 and its access to Adaptability, boosting moves in Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, as well as priority moves in Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, and Vacuum Wave, make it incredibly difficult to stop or revenge kill. Mega Lucario also possesses a wide movepool. Thus, figuring out the (physical or special) nature of its set would not suffice as its movepool can still remain undiscovered due to the number of viable moves that it is susceptible of carrying. Because of all the aforementioned factors, Lucarionite was deemed ban-worthy.

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• Lunala and Solgaleo. Released in February 2021, Lunala and Solgaleo boast an impressive BST of 680. Defensively speaking, Lunala’s typing might be considered underwhelming, but the Pokémon’s various assets outweigh its rare drawbacks. Its bulk is impressive, its Ability is outstanding, and its diverse movepool would allow it to fulfill too many roles far better than anything else would. As for Solgaleo, aside from a passable Ability, it benefits from a good typing, a varied movepool, great defenses, and limited but reliable recovery. Offensively, its coverage is further boosted by the usability of its mixed offensive stats. Overall, both Lunala and Solgaleo were unsurprisingly deemed too powerful for Ranked PvP.

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• Mawilite. When Mega Mawile was released, many thought its low Speed would keep it in check. However, this offensive behemoth turned out to be incredibly difficult to prepare for in a sufficient manner. It only had a handful of checks and counters, some of which served little to no purpose outside of handling Mega Mawile and weakened the team’s overall match-up against other threats. Due to its toolkit, which includes an amazing Fairy / Steel typing, useful pre-Mega Evolution Abilities, and the move Sucker Punch, Mega Mawile was able to bypass its low Speed and perform well against all major playstyles. There was also a discrepancy between the low cost of running Mega Mawile and the ensuing high rewards. Mawilite was banned in April 2021.

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• Moves with a chance to reduce accuracy or raise evasion. Moves that continually increase the user’s evasion, like Double Team and Minimize, are banned due to their inherently uncompetitive nature. Likewise, those that decrease the target’s accuracy, such as Flash and Kinesis, are banned. Moreover, Acupressure, which raises a random stat by two stages, can coincidentally increase evasion and is banned as well.

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• Protean Greninja. Protean Greninja was allowed from 2018 to 2021. There was some opposition to its release, but it fizzled out once it was out. Players had an easier time than expected handling it in PvP. However, as time went on, many realized the full potential of Protean Greninja and, ultimately, its Spikes / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Grass set pushed it over the top. Protean Greninja was able to control the hazard game extremely well and had almost no guaranteed offensive or defensive switch-ins, thanks to its Ability and its vast movepool. Protean Greninja also hindered the development of certain playstyles and archetypes. It was banned in April 2021.

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• Sablenite. Stall is not the most popular playstyle. It is then unsurprising that the addition of a new tool to stall teams was met with backlash. This new tool, Mega Sableye, was a godsend to those teams. It allowed them to seize control of the hazard game to an unprecedented degree that made facing them a daunting task. Thanks to Magic Bounce and its overall toolkit, Mega Sableye was able to remove several ways of crippling Stall and defensive teams in general. Some even argued that it promoted unhealthy match-up reliance and centralization in terms of teambuilding and metagame development. Many deemed that Mega Sableye, one of the best Pokémon used on Stall, and Mega Mawile, one of the best offensive countermeasures to Stall teams, should be packaged together. Sablenite was banned in April 2021.

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• Salamencite. The Staff team instantly banned Salamencite. Mega Salamence boasts incredible stats, which include a remarkable combination of power and Speed, as well as an offensively oriented Ability in Aerilate. Only gimmicky or niche Pokémon, like Eviolite Porygon-2 and Cresselia, can safely switch into it, which highlights the unhealthy and centralizing effects of its presence on the teambuilder and the metagame. Mega Salamence also possesses impressive physical bulk, further complemented by the possibility of running Intimidate as the pre-Mega Ability. Its wide offensive movepool allows it to pick its own checks and it even has access to highly valuable utility moves like Roost and Substitute, which respectively give it more longevity and allow it to bypass status. Salamencite was predictably banned in February 2021, shortly following its release.

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• Shadow Tag. In March 2017, the Staff team organized a 3-week voting period on Shadow Tag. Gothitelle was the main culprit, while other Shadow Tag users were potential casualties that most players did not mind back then. The anti-ban side primarily cited the prevalence of Dark types, Gothitelle’s poor match-up against offensive teams, its inability to set up against relevant Pokémon, its proneness to common stallbreakers like Togekiss, and its much-appreciated ability to keep Stall teams in check. The pro-ban side focused on the lack of team preview (at the time), the removal of the fundamental switch mechanic, the uncompetitive and low-risk, high-reward nature of Shadow Tag, the absence of Pursuit from the game, and Gothitelle’s ability to enable certain threats by removing their main checks. Shadow Tag was banned with a 65% supermajority in April 2017.

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• Shaymin-Sky. While Shaymin was initially banned due to a bug that allowed it to obtain illegal moves like TMs Flamethrower and Ice Beam, it was later unbanned. Shaymin-Sky, on the other hand, has remained banned ever since its first and only ban. Shaymin-Sky boasts high Speed, good Special Attack, and respectable bulk. It also possesses the Ability Serene Grace, which works perfectly with Air Slash and Seed Flare, turning the latter into a 120-BP Grass-type move with an 80% chance to lower the target’s Special Defense by two stages. Shaymin-Sky can then proceed to dispose of the sturdiest special walls. Furthermore, this Pokémon has access to various utility moves, like Substitute, Leech Seed, and Healing Wish. Shaymin-Sky was banned in April 2019.

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• Sheer Force Landorus-Incarnate. Sheer Force Landorus-Incarnate is famed for only having two counters: Cresselia and Mega Latias. The latter was not even released when Landorus-I was roaming free in Ranked PvP. Thanks to an amazing Ability in Sheer Force, which grants it a recoil-free Life Orb boost, as well as its varied movepool, Landorus-I had both versatility and unpredictability. It was even able to choose whether to better its match-up against defensive teams with Calm Mind or improve the one against offensive builds with Rock Polish. Moreover, because Sheer Force Landorus-I had low usage, players had to decide whether to account for it at the risk of not encountering any or forego preparing for it altogether at the risk of running into one and suffering certain defeat. Sheer Force Landorus-I was, at first, only banned from PRO Ladder Tours; however, it was also banned from Ranked PvP in August 2020.

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• Some illegal combinations, like Psywave Natural Cure/Serene Grace Chansey/Blissey or Curse Technician/Swarm Scizor. While the latter was solely enforced by the Staff team in August 2020, the community still had a say in previous illegal combinations that were banned, including Soft-Boiled Unaware Clefable in September 2017.

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• Speed Boost Blaziken. When PRO’s mechanics shifted from being Gen 6-based to being Gen 7-based, Talonflame’s Gale Wings was effectively nerfed. This once popular Pokémon was no longer highly viable and, as a result, players realized that they had just lost one of the very few tools to keep Speed Boost Blaziken in check. Shortly thereafter, Blaziken was banned in April 2018, as it had become exceedingly hard to revenge kill or prevent from sweeping due to the shakiness of answers like Slowbro and Azumarill. Blaze Blaziken was unbanned in August 2018 thanks to the addition of a clear Speed Boost message that allowed differentiating between Speed Boost Blaziken and Blaze Blaziken.

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• Swagger. The Swagger Clause was added to Ranked PvP in November 2016. SwagPlay teams were extremely uncompetitive and consisted of running Prankster Pokémon able to utilize the move Swagger, typically in conjunction with Thunder Wave and Foul Play. While this strategy never became popular in PRO, due to how quickly the Swagger Clause was borrowed from Smogon, some players still tried to experiment with similar tactics, including Prankster Confuse Ray Sableye, which were far less successful, consistent, and uncompetitive than SwagPlay teams.

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Please avoid including the following Pokémon in your comments and suggestions:

• Falinks, Skwovet, and Wooloo.
• Zacian and Zamazenta.

Balance matters aside, these no longer obtainable Gen 8 Pokémon were released in 2021 with the intent of keeping them banned from Ranked PvP for the foreseeable future. Therefore, discussing them now would be pointless.

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Please make sure to use the following template to discuss any of the aforementioned items.

Template:

Quote

 

Discussed item: 

 

Course of action: 

 

Justification:  

 

 

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Example of a good submission:

Discussed item: Protean Greninja.

Course of action: Retesting.

Justification: Protean Greninja deserves another shot. Offensive teams can handle it relatively well thanks to priority users and steadily or increasingly common Pokemon like Mega Scizor, Mega Manectric, Mega Alakazam, and even Keldeo and Scarf Lando. Stall is able to deal with Protean Greninja better than most playstyles, even though Spikes can make things tricky. Finally, while balanced teams might still struggle a bit against Protean Greninja, Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Rotom-W are among the most common ones in the metagame. If some players can afford to run HP Grass to beat Defog Rotom-W, you can immediately expect Spikes and Ice Beam, which immediately makes Protean Greninja easier to check. Moreover, many Pokemon that Greninja beats hard, like Volca, Exca, and Gliscor, have been seeing less and less usage, thus rendering Protean Gren less efficient than it used to be. Weavile is still common and can Pursuit trap Greninja to remove it from the game. Overall, 2/3 major playstyles can deal with Protean Greninja decently well. This is why I believe it should at least be considered for a retest.

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Example of a bad submission:

Please unban Gren. It’s frail and has a lot of counters in the metagame like Chansey and Ferrothorn on every team. It also dies easily to Mach Punch and Bullet Punch. Now we have Lopunny, Manectric and Alakazam to outspeed it too, so it shouldn’t be a problem. 

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Main sources:

[Un]Banning Dugtrio & Wobbuffet

An unhealthy Battle Bond: The Ash-Greninja case

Arena Trap. Yes or No.

Ban Blaziken

Explaining the recent bans of Greninja, Mawilite, and Sablenite and the unbanning of Mega Metagross

Genesect, Gothitelle and Blaziken testing phase

PvP Feedback – Baton Pass

PvP Feedback – Landorus

Ranked PvP Rules.

Shadow Tag Voting

Softboiled and Unaware ability combined – Allow or Ban from ranked PvP?

Time to unban normal ability Blaze Blaziken [Edit: Blaze Blaziken is unbanned | H.A Blaziken stays banned]

Edited January 18, 2022 by Jorogumo

[Iceflake]

 

Discussed item:  Sablenite

 

Course of action: Testing

 

Justification:  Mega sableye was quickly banned the season it was released along with Mega Mawile {mega wave 3} .  People say that one cannot exist without the other to check it but that simply cannot be the case.  At that time the meta did not develop to incorporate its existence.  This along with the incredible hate that it received for it being basically mandatory on any stall team led it to its banning.  Not to say that it did restrict team building, but as of now with the introduction of Z-moves being added in the game they should make dealing with it a whole lot easier.  We are now about 8 months from that point in time.  The Meta has changed with new pokemon being added as well as Zmoves, its about time it gets a testing period to show that its not that all powerful as people think it is.  With proper announcements ahead of time to get the community introduced to the existence of Sablenite I believe it can cleanly slide into the meta without any problems. 

Thank you.

[Baganha]

Discussed move: Baton pass

 

Course of action: Discussion/voting

 

Justification: I would never argue the effective and cheapness of what statpassing can do, but i feel like something could be done to salvage even if little of what the move is able to do. By all means, dry passing has still its many utilities, from offering momentum, dodge pursuit or scout potential. A clause like where baton pass cannot be used whenever the pokemon has stat buffs imo would be ideal. If a pokemon has boosts and clicks bp maybe the move could fail similar to sleep moves with its clause. If a pokemon has nerfed stats (intimidate for example) i believe it shouldnt be any problem as you are essentially offering to bp nerfed stats to it. There is also no ability exploit like contrary/simple/defiant that takes advantage of this issue afaik (correct me if im wrong tho). Giving how specific bp clauses have been in the past i dont see why this would be too complex to implement.


 

Discussed move: Illegal combinations

 

Course of action: Discussion/voting

 

Justification: Ive stated this before but i personally have no issue with these combinations so as long they obviously make the pokemon too good. I feel its overall a net positive to add more stuff like this for the game. My only concerns being what that leaves for the state of the market and ladder tournaments. If those arent issues to deal with i dont see why we shouldnt proceed to allow this.

[Haneroze]

Discussed item: Moves with a chance to reduce accuracy or raise evasion.

 

Course of action: Discussion/voting

 

Justification: Double Team and Minimize are certainly unhealthy moves for the metagame, as they turn the battle into an heavily RNG-reliant one, unless the opponent brings unusual moves like Aerial Ace and Haze. However, the same can't be said about the other involved moves, as their effects are either counterable by any team, or potentially too weak to cause a difference. I consider the rest to be under 3 different components, each of them worth a discussion of their own.

 

• Accuracy reduction moves. This rule was here far before I joined, and when I asked why accuracy-reducing moves were banned, I was taught that it was because Evasion/Accuracy boosts were bugged, although I never heard how exactly. If that bug was fixed within the numerous Battle code updates we've received lately, then it would be worth to bring this portion of the ban to discussion. Accuracy-lowering moves are not banned in Showdown, and almost no one uses them as they usually come with a lowered power that is not sufficiently compensated by the accuracy drop, and it can easily be countered by simply switching to a different Pokemon.
• Acupressure. The move was also banned much before I joined. While one could think it is because of the chance to increase Evasion, it may also have to do with the Evasion/Accuracy boost bug. In Showdown, this move is however not banned. The reason is that the move itself is far too unstable to make it worth using. Most Pokemons that can use it are too frail to afford taking hits, and there is a ~50% chance for the buff to be useless in the immediate situation (non-used Attack, Defense that does not affect the opponent's moves, Accuracy, and Speed if you already outspeed). The few Pokemons that can potentially use it efficiently are better off boosting directly with Swords Dance.
• Evasion-boosting Z-Moves. This is a little of a gray area, and not immediately relevant, but it may be worth discussing now as we have been announced not long ago that Z-moves were coded, therefore is now waiting only for Z-crystals to be distributed. Certain Z-moves, such as Z-Magnet Rise, can increase the user's evasion by one stage. There are however three major differences from Double Team that make it worth unbanning. The first one is that you can only gain one boost maximum. This means a 25% evasion buff at best, slightly better than Sand Veil and Snow Cloak. The second one is that once you switch out, you can no longer regain that evasion boost. This means that it can be countered by forcing the buffed Pokemon to switch by bringing a threat that is still superior despite the 25% evasion buff. The final difference is that this also comes at the exchange of a more useful Z-move. Once it's used, the opponent no longer have to worry about surprise powerful attacks.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Haneroze
Added 3rd reason to Z-moves

[Salemzeroo]

Discussed item: Curse combination with non-hidden ability scizor. 

 

Course of action: discussion. 

 

Justification:  pvp wise according to pokedex, here are the moves that are affected by light metal:

 

Light Metal halves the Pokémon's weight in battle. Decreasing weight affects these moves:

• Grass Knot (lower damage when receiving)
• Heat Crash (lower damage when attacking, higher damage when receiving)
• Heavy Slam (lower damage when attacking, higher damage when receiving)
• Low Kick (lower damage when receiving)

From what i checked, when a light metal scizor is attacked by low kick and grass knot, light metal will lower the power of the damage received... And the opposite happens when light metal scizor is attacked by the other 2 moves (heavy slam and heat crash)... Mentioning that all these moves are out of meta and this case case (benefit from light metal) applies only before the mega evolve of scizor, I can't understand the pvp wise point behind banning the combination between non-h.a scizor and curse. 

Economical Wise: when we buy a pvp mega pokémon we look at mainly two things, the benefit of the pokémon after mega evolving and BEFORE mega evolving as we may use a pokémon without its mega evolve especially for a pokémon like scizor which can still do a great job swords dance attacker or choice band user. That being said, light metal is only needed when we are mega evolving scizor and especially having careful / impish nature which will not work with scizor before mega evolving. So it is true that this raised the value of light metal a bit, but at the end it didn't have that great impact because scizor technician is still better for non mega scizor... I would request unbanning the combination between technician scizor and curse as it can just slightly boost the value of light metal ability in the market.... But it doesn't really have any other effect.  

Regards. 

[Shunsou]

Discussed item:Sablenite, Mawilite, Illegal combination

 

Course of action: Suggestion,Testing

 

Justification: 

1.   Mega Sableye known as best tool in stall team to control hazard for his team safety switch play and immune status moves capability. Within 3 immunities and massive bulks it also able to switch in faces most pokemons not deadly damage. Added prankster ability as pre mega its able to burn every attackers in offensive opposite even make it more annoying than everything and unbeatable within it's stall team coverage, it surely unbeatable by burned offensive pokemons
    
2. Mega Mawile definitely one of most powerful hitter and can access moves that can beat its weakness, there is almost no switch in check to handle 2 hit of this pokemon. Within intimidate as pre evo that could used as pivot damage decrease back to back, or hyper cutter that not affected by any decreasing it's atk and stay at max conditon to hit with full damage, no bulky team could handle it's hit and so much deadly as trick room sweeper
    
3. Curse Mega Scizor about this one, i have no idea why the main reason of ban is because original game only allow mega scizor uses curse within h.a scizor, and didnt play any pokemon mmo games beside PRO. In my vision this worthy ban as illegal combination because curse mega scizor is just unbeatable for most atk based pokemon and the decrease speed even make trick room team cant touch it. with naturally only 1 weakness, high bulks and atk also prio and regen move it need to little nerfed, and i agree with it only allow with h.a to balancing it with the rarity
    

Here i have sugggestion about unban sablenite without h.a, and mawilite within h.a. that far i know their pre mega abilities so much broken/annoying when it combined with the mega form ability. maybe with a nerf it still become a healty pokemon on this meta. sableye without prankster couldn't able  to taunt, burn, or recover from faster substitute pokemons.
mawile without intimidate and hyper cutter no longer good to keep as pre mega for buff pivot. and itimidate bulky pokemons able to do check. in my vision they have so much lack of function when they losing their pre mega form abilities. and maybe worth a try

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by shunsou

[Eric66]

Discussed Item : Protean Greninja

Course of action : Testing

Justification :

1. Protean Greninja might be a big thread to balanced teams, as it was mentioned, stall teams and hyper offense teams could deal with it. With Keldeo being in the centre of the meta, and it is basicly used on almost every single team on higher ranks, it is a pretty simple counter to Greninja. Also, as it was mentioned, the most used tanks, such as Ferrothorn or Rotom-Wash can check it is moveset, and it can be predicted after the first move. 

2.

Getting back to the game since Protean Greninja ban, I could see a lot of Weavile in the ranked mode. Weavile is just one of the few pokemons in the current meta that can out speed Greninja, and Ohko it. Other than that, Keldeo, Scarf Landorus can outdpeed and kill it. None the less, the introduction of all mega pokemons, we got Mega Alakazam, an extremely fast and strong pokemon, just like we got Mega Manectric and Mega Lopunny. They are all faster and can easily kill Greninja. 

3.

Stall teams. They are most likely can afford to defog, and check it is moveset, that lead to advantage over your opponent. Even if the enemy Greninja has HP Grass, and kills Rotom - Wash, you will have the advantage, due to knowing, or atleast having a good guess of it is moveset

Hyper offense teams. In these teams, priority moves are necesarry. They are there to deal with faster pokemons, and Greninja isnt an exception. +2 Bisharp can easily 1 hit ko Greninja. These teams often include Keldeo, so it is another solution to deal with it. 

[Shunsou]

Discussed item: Illegal Combination

 

Course of action: Unban Vote

 

Justification:
 

Pikachu within light ball it having 450 atk or 400 spatk and high speed fully trained very much classified as hardest hitter and hard to predict its spat or atk user before it using a move. in Gen 1 and 2 this pokemon able to make most damage with variant strong move like thunderbolt/punch, surf, knock off, brick break, voltswitch that can rekt slowbro togekiss steelix rhyperior donphan and many more. this is the time we can only use leftovers, lum berry, and life orb as pvp item

This pokemon definitely broken. but now we already entering Gen 7 with alot variant item that pokemon can hold and already coded to increase damage/speed like scarf toge etc, even a burned conk or banded diggersby can reach 600+ atk.

I have suggestion to make a vote about unban pikachu all combination except the fancy move 'surf'. maybe pikachu can swimming with Ash in pool or surf in beach but adding pikachu surf as atk move is out of logic. this pokemon definitely cant control that big wave of water. maybe can add water pulse or bubblebeam as move replacement.
or maybe can do a test first if this pokemon classified broken with all it's move combination in current meta

[Luohan]

Discussed item: protean greninja

 

Course of action: discuss/vote

 

Justification:  first of all, our society wasted tons of time and bms for hunting a perfect ninjas, it's not fair to simply ban it. We should take an actions to bring it back. Show some respect to anyone who seriously invested for it. 

 

1. megas were implemented, which means greninja has more counters around now (alakazam, maneteric, lopunny, even priority scizor/medicham...). 

 

2. If its not enough to give it a 2nd try lets try to list what kind of pokemons would be enough to be around (tapus, toxapex,...) to let it came back. We could even discuss a kind of complex temporaty bans for it (like baning the incredible spikes+protean) until those pokemons would be implemented to Pro (and push for it). 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Luohan

[Turboo]

Discussed Item : Protean Greninja

Course of action : Testing

Justification :

1. Protean Greninja might be a big thread to balanced teams, as it was mentioned, stall teams and hyper offense teams could deal with it. With Keldeo being in the centre of the meta, and it is basicly used on almost every single team on higher ranks, it is a pretty simple counter to Greninja. Also, as it was mentioned, the most used tanks, such as Ferrothorn or Rotom-Wash can check it is moveset, and it can be predicted after the first move. 

2.

Getting back to the game since Protean Greninja ban, I could see a lot of Weavile in the ranked mode. Weavile is just one of the few pokemons in the current meta that can out speed Greninja, and Ohko it. Other than that, Keldeo, Scarf Landorus can outdpeed and kill it. None the less, the introduction of all mega pokemons, we got Mega Alakazam, an extremely fast and strong pokemon, just like we got Mega Manectric and Mega Lopunny. They are all faster and can easily kill Greninja. 

3.

Stall teams. They are most likely can afford to defog, and check it is moveset, that lead to advantage over your opponent. Even if the enemy Greninja has HP Grass, and kills Rotom - Wash, you will have the advantage, due to knowing, or atleast having a good guess of it is moveset

Hyper offense teams. In these teams, priority moves are necesarry. They are there to deal with faster pokemons, and Greninja isnt an exception. +2 Bisharp can easily 1 hit ko Greninja. These teams often include Keldeo, so it is another solution to deal with it.