C0mp

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Player name: c0mp Showdown name: c0mp Server: Silver Timezone: Gmt -4 Rank on ladder: 15

Player name: c0mp Showdown name: c0mp Server: Silver Timezone: GMT -4 Rank on ladder: 7

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Player name: c0mp Showdown name: c0mp Server: Silver Timezone: GMT -4 Rank on ladder: 11

Player name: c0mp Showdown name: c0mp Server: Silver Timezone: GMT -4 Rank on ladder: 21

End it as usual. You can implement all of the new changes at the beginning of next month. New month, brand new start.

That is simply untrue. Calculations aren't "excuses". In many matches, you sometimes need the time to calc to decide on whether or not an attack kills; this is very simple. If you think that your opponent is trying to "break your nerves" because they take 30 seconds each move (which they usually don't), then you are the one grasping at straws to limit the timer. I think that, regardless of the team archetype, players should be able to take the time to evaluate their decisions. Not every turn is a simple 5-second click, especially not against stall teams.

Yeah, sorry, I don't agree with this. As a consistent PVP player, 15 seconds sounds way too short for most games. What people don't understand is that it can take a minimum of 30-40 seconds to do damage calcs and calcing a move can easily be a deciding factor in games. You also have to factor in people weighing out their options, which can also take up to 30-40 seconds per turn. So many people complain about the timer being too long, yet the 100 seconds we have on PRO are nothing compared to the 270-second timer on Pokemon Showdown. You have to understand-- just because a person is taking time with their moves, they are not necessarily time-stalling you. I've also seen many people complain about how if someone is using a stall team, they are automatically time-stalling, which is flat-out ridiculous. That is the entire point of a stall team: to stall the opponent. Personally, I like the current timer, it isn't too long or short in my opinion. I understand people want faster games, but the harsh reality is that this will not always be the case, especially in intense matches versus good opponents. -1

+1

I dont think it's fair to compare Pursuit Weavile to Magic Guard Clefable because they are not really all that similar. Sure, if your opponent has a Life Orb Magic Guard Clefable you can take advantage of that rather niche set easily, but adjusting to Pursuit Weavile is a much more difficult task. There really is no problem at all if your opponent knows you have Pursuit on Weavile, it's still going to be a viable asset to the team. It's not like using Pursuit Weavile is a generally unviable gimmick akin to Counter Chansey. When it comes to the moveset, I stand by what I said about Pursuit, Icicle Crash, Knock, Ice Shard being the best. I think Poison Jab is a niche move only used for Pokemon like Azumarill and perhaps Clefable. Even then, It doesn't do that much to the most commonly used Clefable spread: 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 190-224 (48.2 - 56.8%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery The fact of the matter is Pursuit is just too good not to use. You can trap the likes of Gengar, Chandelure, Excadrill, Serperior, and the list goes on. Low Kick on Weavile has use for mirror matches, sure, but otherwise I see no reason to use it. Sure, you can OHKO Tyranitar, Heatran and of course Bisharp, but Weavile generally has partners that can deal with those adequately enough anyway. I can agree that Weavile is practically deadweight against stall teams because of Alomomola — a hard counter to it — but against the most common weather teams (rain and sun), Weavile can hold its own. It can deal massive damage with Ice Shard to the sun sweepers because they are all grass types and Knock Off Torkoal's Heat Rock to minimize sun turns. Same deal with Pelipper. Keep in mind that rocks will be up in most of these scenarios, so if you click Ice Shard, it isn't always just a free switch if your opponent predicts it. 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victreebel: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Shiftry: 312-368 (97.1 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO Weavile can also threaten rains sweepers with Ice Shard chip damage and by Pursuiting the rain sweepers once the rain expires. Against offense, as I said before, there are drawbacks from just clicking the priority move. If you're looking at the typical offensive team, you have priority in the form of Dragonite Extreme-Speed, Bisharp Sucker Punch, or Lucario Bullet Punch/E-Speed. If they go for the priority move, and you go into something that can take the hit — they lose massive momentum. I understand that it is a double-edged sword if they instead predict and go for something like Swords Dance, or Dragon Dance, however. I have seen a common core of Weavile and Rotom-W which allows for immediate momentum into Weavile and an easy Pursuit. I'd say this is one of the most powerful cores in the metagame right now. I'd say it plays a huge role in the metagame as of now. I'm also trying to get behind the reasoning of putting something like Tornadus-Therian — a Pokemon that has barely even seen use yet — on S rank. It isn't that powerful and you could argue it sucks against offense because of priority users. While it has a nice speed tier and good defensive and offensive stats, Rotom-Wash also dominates the metagame and you have to rely on flimsy Hurricane/Focus Blast's 70% accuracy to do damage. Weavile is also on almost every team. I'm just not to sure about this final decision.

The metagame is not dominated by Conkeldurr or Scizor. They just simply don't dominate in a metagame where Rocky Helmet Garchomp and Rotom-W are on every single team. They are also slow, so they have obvious flaws unlike Weavile. As I said, you can definitely Mach and Bullet Punch Weavile to kill it, but of course It's not always that simple. When it comes to Clefable, all you need is a bit of prior damage to 2hko it. Please elaborate more on the restrictions it has because personally I can't see how it's moveset is restricted at all. Conkeldurr is a good Pokemon. I think it is fair to keep it at A rank. It has it's drawbacks. It can easily pressure teams, but the biggest issue with it is prediction. It can be easily worn down if you predict incorrectly. It is also checked relatively easily because of low speed. When it comes to Rotom-W, I think the S rank is fair for it and won't argue much there.

I have no idea why Weavile isn't in S Tier, if not being discussed for a ban already, whereas a Pokemon like Tornadus-Therian suddenly is. Weavile is easily the best revenge-killer in the game. It has 125 base speed meaning it outspeeds the vast majority of the metagame. Whenever you're down a Poke you can easily go to a Choice-Banded Weavile without issue and fire off something your opponent has trouble dealing with. It fits on every team archetype and literally every single one of its moves has insane viability. It has priority Ice Shard and two high-powered stab moves (Knock Off and Icicle Crash), which can easily 2hko the majority of the metagame. Oh, and it gets Pursuit too, which means you're rolling the dice whenever Weavile switches in on something slower and frailer than it. I wouldn't say this is the most troubling aspect of Weavile, however, it does cause 50/50 scenarios. Icicle Crash has a 30% flinch chance that can easily be the deciding factor whether you win or lose a game. It creates 30/70 scenarios far too often and forces you to play more defensively against it. There are certainly priority users that can revenge-kill Weavile like Aqua Jet Azumarill, Bullet Punch Scizor, Mach Punch Conkeldurr etc, but if you just spam the priority move, that can put you into a pretty crappy situation especially if they have something to absorb the hits like a Rocky Helmet Garchomp. If your plan is to counter Weavile defensively, then those defensive Pokemon can also easily succumb to a flinch chance, especially after knocking off Leftovers i.e Skarmory, Clefable, Quagsire, Ferrothorn, Chansey. I mean, just look at these calcs for reference: 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 112-133 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 118-139 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 135-159 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 297-351 (42.2 - 49.9%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-307 (37.1 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 242-288 (59.9 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Now, let's see how much damage Weavile deals out to more offensive Pokemon: 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 319-376 (102.5 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 90-107 (26.3 - 31.2%) -- 32.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 118-140 (34.5 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 235-277 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 155-183 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 213-252 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 213-252 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 225-265 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 111-132 (40.9 - 48.7%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 98-116 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 337-397 (93.3 - 109.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 297-349 (82.2 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 132-156 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 150-177 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 225-265 (65.5 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 225-265 (80 - 94.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 205-243 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 205-243 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 194-230 (66.6 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 224-266 (74.4 - 88.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 194-230 (62.3 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 199-235 (70.5 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock I could go on and on about the brute power of Weavile, but I dont want to flood this thread with calcs. In the many games I've played over the past few months I've considered it stressful and aggravating to play against. As I see it now, Weavile is just too much of an omnipotent force in the metagame to not be considered for a ban let alone S rank.

Username: c0mp Server: Silver Country/Timezone: AMurica, GMT -4

I personally am on the fence, but leaning more toward a ban. I haven't played it often in PRO, but when I did encounter it, I struggled to prevent Scolipede from Baton Passing. The big issue is that Scolipede outspeeds most of the meta after a Protect and can outright kill the things that could potentially pressure it. It learns Earthquake which can kill Gengar, Chandelure, Excadrill, Heatran, Bisharp, etc. It can also learn Poison Jab and Megahorn which can kill/heavily damage things like Weavile, Tangrowth, Togekiss, Breloom, Alolan-Ninetales. Azumarill. So not only does Scolipede possess great utility but it also has big offensive power. Now let's think about the Baton Pass recipients. Based on what I've seen, a typical Baton Pass Team usually has a Manaphy, Togekiss, Kommo-O/Lucario/Excadrill and Espeon which are highly threatening once speed boosts are passed due to their ATK/SPATK-boosting moves. This means that the Baton Pass user has a wide variety of things to choose from depending on the situation. Manaphy doesn't have as good typing as Togekiss and seems to be more manageable with things like Unaware Clefable, Ferrothorn, Chansey (unless rain dance) being pretty common in the meta, but it can still pack a punch with the TG + 3 ATKS set. Excadrill can switch into fairies and obliterate Unaware Clefable with Mold Breaker and Swords Dance. Togekiss is weak to Bullet Punch and Ice Shard, but it is a huge threat having Serene Grace Air Slash and a crazy movepool of Roost, Heal Bell, Aura Sphere, Flamethrower, Dazzling Gleam, etc.. Kommo has Bulletproof meaning it can switch into Gyro Ball, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast with little issue and Dragon Dance is fairly threatening. Lucario has good coverage moves and priority, although it suffers from 4mss and a lack of bulk. Espeon is frail, but a bulky set of Calm Mind, Stored Power, Dazzling Gleam, Moonlight can be deadly and Magic Bounce means no Roar. They all have their own unique roles in the team and support each other pretty well. It's a tough call but I think it may just be too much to handle.

Player name: c0mp Showdown name: c0mp Server: Silver Timezone: GMT -4 Rank on ladder: 15