The Rule That Is Ruining PRO Auctions

[Phuongismylife]

I agree with this post

[Logan]

This rant is about my disappointment is people retaining their right to cancel an auction if they do not like the final offer.

 

I UNDERSTAND WHY YOU DO IT

 

First off, I want to tell you I understand why you do it. And I understand it is rarely enforced. A smart auction starts low to get multiple people invested into bidding with the hopes to selling high. But you of course fear that if only one or two people bid you will end up selling your epic pokemon for half the value you expected to get for it. The comfort of knowing you can stop the auction saves you from the fear of doing it. You are thinking about yourself here, but you should be thinking about your buyer when trying to sell something.

 

WHY IT IS HURTING YOUR AUCTION

 

Now consider the buyer's point of view. The average auction lasts about 2 or 3 days. A pokemon worthy of an auction normally sells for 500k or more. This is not cheap and many times the buyer will have to invest their feelings into this. When a buyer sees that their offer may be rejected, the fear of being rejected may turn them way from investing their feelings into the auction. Remember, you are doing an auction in hopes of luring people in at a low price to get their feelings invested into the auction so they will outbid others. But by including a rule that puts their feelings at risk of being hurt, you drive away potential customers from starting or joining in on the auction.

 

WHY YOUR AUCTION DOESNT GET BIDS UNTIL THE LAST HOURS

 

If you've hosted an auction, you get two common responses. "Whats the insta?" and "When does the auction end?" Many times people will wait until the auction is close to ending to bid, because they know bidding early requires investing time and feelings. And when they see the rule that you could cancel the auction whenever will absolutely stop these specific individuals who are already timid to investing time and feelings from bidding. The less time their money sits in auction, the less time and feelings are invested. You want them to invest all their money and feelings into the auction, so you want them to bid early. If you state that people's bid will always hold up, you remove the fear of people getting their feelings hurt and time wasted.

 

So the next time you consider adding this rule to your auction, understand that you are scaring off potential customers for your own comfort.

 

I am sorry about any inconvinience you faced because of that rule. Indeed, the auctioneers reserve the right to cancel their auction, if they mentioned that in their auction rules, before the auction starts. With that way, sellers are protected by last minute "sniping" and they feel safe. Buyers are not forced to participate in an auction with such rule, but if they do, they have to accept all rules the auctioneer set. With my experience, cancelling an auction is not really common. Always and without exception, when an auction is not properly handled by both auctioneer and bidders, it will result to at least one user being disappointed. Bidder or Auctioneer, we do not want disappointed users, but we cannot avoid it without an Auction House, a long-term solution, that would make Trade Environment better,more reliable and trustworthy, our users happier and our job easier. Our Developers plan to implement it in the future and until then Staff Members try to revise and revamp the Rules once per while, in order to achieve the maximum possible reliability for Auctions, protect the sellers so we have an active Auction environment and also, protect bidders(Trade Rule 13,14).

Cancelling this rule without another counterweight is not under consideration neither will be. Although, if we find another possible solution as counterweight to last minute "sniping", we could have a change.

 

 

I never understood why the auctioneer had the right to cancel their auction.

I have never seen this rule in real life auctions. I could possibly be wrong, maybe that exists.

Yes, it actually exists and also, I wouldn't compare real life with any Game.

 

Technically speaking, there is always a minimum price to start every auction.

 

But yeah. I do not blame sellers for adding this rule. And as stated, I rarely see it enforced. Guild mates have told me they suggested to staff to restrict sellers from cancelling auctions, but they denied the request. I am not sure how they pitched the suggestion, but I agree with you how removing sellers ability to add this comfort rule would cause a lot of frustration for some people and staff is too afraid to face these complaints.

 

Users cannot request a rule to change. We are opened in feedback and suggestions, but it doesn't mean we are forced neither can be manipulated to change a rule. Also, Staff is not afraid to face any complaints. There are valid and invalid complaints and we answer them accordingly. The rule was implemented, because of lots complaints regarding last minute sniping. A lot of users still do it. As sellers have to accept last minute offers, the same way buyers have to accept the specific auction rule, if written.

 

Kind regards,

Logan

Edited March 12, 2019 by Logan

[Purplemauth]

Complaining about "sniping" is equivalent to complaining that people are bidding on your pokemon within the allotted time that you, as the auctioneer has determined. If you don't want people bidding at the last second then you shouldn't have an auction, you should have an instant price because you don't actually want everyone to have a fair chance at the pokemon, you just want a certain dollar amount.

 

If you had a better chance at securing a pokemon you wanted, why wouldn't you take that advantage? Last minute bidding is a part of every auction in the world and other games. Ebay, Estate sales, bidding on storage units, Auction houses in any other video game (Which, if one is being implemented into PRO, will allow you to bid within a certain time frame. Everyone will bid at the last minute so that there is less time for other users to respond. This is the basic functionality of an auction.). Why not try and actually emulate what the auction house is going to be? This is the only "economy" that actually tries to remove power from the people who wish to participate to enable sellers who want to get certain prices and sell pokemon only if they get their price.

 

If you are willing to put something up for auction, that means you are willing to sell it. It should be as simple as that. If you are not actually willing to sell it, it breaks the rules because it is a fake sale. My previous point outlines that in detail.

 

Users cannot request a rule to change.

 

The rule was implemented, because of lots complaints regarding last minute sniping.

 

Do these two statements not completely contradict each other? Did you not change a rule because of many people suggesting a rule change? Is that not what this thread is also doing? Suggesting a tweak to the rules? I am just curious as to what makes those suggestions different than these suggestions.

[Teerav]

This thread has 8 people strongly agreeing with my opinion. Several of them providing feedback about how they dislike this rule and would like to see it "removed." Only you, @Logan have taken the time to disagree with this threads opinion. And frankly, the argument of "sniping" is incredibly weak and sounds like people just complaining they didnt enough more of the pokemon that they agreed to sell it for.

 

If you are going to consider changing this rule, maybe you should consider this thread as official feedback.

[Qeight]

I am not a Trade Moderator however it seems like there is a big misconception on why this rule is so important and why we have it that way. The importance of this rule will hopefully be more clear for all of you after my post.

---

This rant is about my disappointment is people retaining their right to cancel an auction if they do not like the final offer.

This is a right every auctioneer and almost every auction house has, it is not uncommon that auctions get canceled due to the amount of offers or the quality of the offers.

The keyword is a reserve price, which is a set minimum that has to be reached before a sale can happen. This price is not known to bidders. The equivalent in our case is that the user has the right to cancel the auction if he is not satisfied with the outcome of the auction. The rules are public available prior to an auction start in the real world henceforth we require all auction rules to be stated prior to the auction start. It is your decision whether or not you participate in the auction if you disagree with their rules.

The goods are sold subject to reserve price.

1.1 The sale by auction is subject to a reserve price.

A reservation price is a limit on the price of a good or a service. On the demand side, it is the highest price that a buyer is willing to pay; on the supply side, it is the lowest price at which a seller is willing to sell a good or service

 

Source: General Rules Of Auction - Ian Wyles, Rules of Auction - Leo Auctioneers & Wikipedia - Reservation price

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First off, I want to tell you I understand why you do it. And I understand it is rarely enforced. A smart auction starts low to get multiple people invested into bidding with the hopes to selling high. But you of course fear that if only one or two people bid you will end up selling your epic pokemon for half the value you expected to get for it. The comfort of knowing you can stop the auction saves you from the fear of doing it. You are thinking about yourself here, but you should be thinking about your buyer when trying to sell something.

A big misconception, the seller does not care whatsoever who the buyer is. In the end it comes down to the final price and whether or not it reached the expectations of the auctioneer.

Technically speaking, there is always a minimum price to start every auction.

You have explained it very well yourself, so this is a contradicting statement.

Remember, you are doing an auction in hopes of luring people in at a low price to get their feelings invested into the auction so they will outbid others.

The minimum price/start price is somewhat different from an expected price. It is very obvious that in most cases the start price is not what the auctioneer wants, rather something he/she feels comfortable with having users' start with. The instant price is set for most auctions and solves all the issues you are having with this. You don't want to invest the time, "feelings" or money into an auction, simply instant buy it for the price the auctioneer is comfortable giving up their Pokemon.

 

If you aren't willing to sell it for a certain price (that you, as the auctioneer can decide at will), that is fake selling. Rule 11 clearly reads:

11. Fake Offering/Selling/Bidding with no intention to buy/sell is prohibited.

Auctions that are put up with an intention to see if they can start low to raise the price and get in a bid-off mean that the minimum offer they are posting is thereby fake. If they have no intention to sell for that price, that should be considered a fake and punished as such. Allowing people to cancel auctions because of "low offers" is a controlled situation in which the seller set a price that they were not actually happy with.

The necessary channels exist for people to get an accurate valuation of their pokemon (Price checks exist in game, on the forum, and on multiple Discord servers). If they disagree with the valuations given, they should set their minimum as what they believe, rather than fishing for more money. It is dishonest and as bidders have commented above, ultimately hurts the auction and the people who are willing to participate.

A very far stretch of what the rules say, you can't prove that there wasn't intent to sell just because the auction was canceled. Also on a personal note, almost all price checks are either random, from uninformed people or just false to confuse the seller. The price is always decided by supply/demand and the emotional attachment some users' have to their Pokemon, some may want way more than other users' just because of x-y-z reasons.

 

Last minute bidding is a part of every auction in the world and other games. Ebay, Estate sales, bidding on storage units, Auction houses in any other video game (Which, if one is being implemented into PRO, will allow you to bid within a certain time frame.

I'll be solely focusing on real world auction houses here. It is true that last minute bidding is a thing however you also have last calls which we do not have.

A very good example of everything above included:

.

This video should provide you with not only a good example how the reserve price plays a role but also that last minute bidding is not really possible as you have last calls (3 last calls every time there is a new highest bidder).

 

The second example would be an eBay auction where the highest offer gets beaten at 4 seconds before the auction ends and at about half a second before it actually ended:

.

Do you believe this system is fair and if so how does one explain the emotional investment that gets wasted, the money that is occupied during the auction that can't be used for other things.

 

There are two sides to this issue and no easy solution however we try to make it the least frustrating experience possible.

---

This thread has 8 people strongly agreeing with my opinion. Several of them providing feedback about how they dislike this rule and would like to see it "removed." Only you, @Logan have taken the time to disagree with this threads opinion. And frankly, the argument of "sniping" is incredibly weak and sounds like people just complaining they didnt enough more of the pokemon that they agreed to sell it for.

I'll throw it back at you, "only 8 people" are complaining and not hundreds or thousands from this community. Is it really that big of an issue like you are portraying it. Indeed only Logan took the time to disagree with you in this thread but please keep in mind that every rule adjustment or rule addition has to be discussed within moderation channels and admins have to approve them. The vast majority of moderation staffs agree with this rule, especially the ones who are enforcing this (Trade Moderators).

 

And at last:

and staff is too afraid to face these complaints.

This is the least of our worries when changing, adding or adjusting rules. We will reply to all complaints to the best of our ability and explain everything in the smallest detail if really needed but if you fundamentally disagree with the rule then no explanation in the world will change that.

 

Anyway I hope this clarified at least some of your concerns, the rule in itself is good to protect the seller from abusive buyers (purposely low bidding, only bidding until the final seconds before the auction ends). The seller is protected by having to set his own auction rules and the buyer is protected by simply not participating in auctions that he doesn't agree with. This is a solid middle-ground otherwise we will have an unbalance in favor of buyer or in favor of the seller.

 

Have a nice week. :)

Kind regards,

Q8

[Logan]

Complaining about "sniping" is equivalent to complaining that people are bidding on your pokemon within the allotted time that you, as the auctioneer has determined. If you don't want people bidding at the last second then you shouldn't have an auction, you should have an instant price because you don't actually want everyone to have a fair chance at the pokemon, you just want a certain dollar amount.

 

Auctions in real life have their own rules as well. The means change, relying on what auction tools they have, but they always have counteweights to protect both buyers, sellers, owners. For example, as Qeight said, last calls could be a thing, but under circumstances it could lead to a really long auction in PRO. Again as Qeight said, the reserve price could be another, that I am totally agreed with, but it can't really happen without an auction house. Starting offer is the initiative offer for an auciton, some sellers might be satisfied with that and some others no. You can't force them sell their belonging for that price, it is a price to initiate an auction, the reserve price should be the minimum price that sellers should be forced and satisfied to sell their Pokemon, but this price would never been known to bidders, only owner and Staff and finally, the instant price is the desired price.

 

Do these two statements not completely contradict each other? Did you not change a rule because of many people suggesting a rule change? Is that not what this thread is also doing? Suggesting a tweak to the rules? I am just curious as to what makes those suggestions different than these suggestions.

 

People complaining led Staff to find a counterweight, no user decided the rule. The counter argument for anything you say, is that you always have the right to avoid such auctions and I find it really reasonable if you do. I am not saying it is satisfying if you won an auction and the seller decides to cancel it, but since you participated there, you agreed in those terms. In the past, Staff and even myself, stopped cancelling an auction for unreasonable cause, even if it was mentioned in their Auction Rules and I remember clearly that you were the winner in one of them. There are other Auctions though, that I found the cancellation reasonable. When an auction lasts for 24 hours and everyone bids in 10 last minutes, do not expect seller to be satisfied. Would it be better if you set Location too(as in normal trades), other than only price in the auctions and cancel that rule? Did you ever think why there is Location requirement in normal trades? We don't want scarred sellers, after all, it is their belonging being sold, something they bought, they hunt.

 

This thread has 8 people strongly agreeing with my opinion. Several of them providing feedback about how they dislike this rule and would like to see it "removed." Only you, @Logan have taken the time to disagree with this threads opinion. And frankly, the argument of "sniping" is incredibly weak and sounds like people just complaining they didnt enough more of the pokemon that they agreed to sell it for.

 

If you are going to consider changing this rule, maybe you should consider this thread as official feedback.

 

I am considering this thread as official feedback and you can consider my answers as official replies. I am not sure what you mean that I am the only one to take time to disagree with you. Would it be better if I just ignored your thread? Or am I forced to agree with you or anyone? The argument of sniping is pretty reasonable, unless you can find me a good reason that a Pokemon being auctioned for 24 hours receives offers only for a few minutes. There might be other counterweights, that I am trying to think of, but to make it clear, this rule will stay there until Staff finds a better counterweight to eliminate risk from sellers.

[Teerav]

The keyword is a reserve price, [...]

Okay, so there are real life examples of auctions having the option of being canceled. However, many auctions that have this are controlled by auction houses that earn commissions or fees regardless therefore they benefit from an auction whether a item or asset sells or not. In PRO, the only person benefiting is the seller.

 

The argument of sniping is pretty reasonable, unless you can find me a good reason that a Pokemon being auctioned for 24 hours receives offers only for a few minutes. There might be other counterweights, that I am trying to think of, but to make it clear, this rule will stay there until Staff finds a better counterweight to eliminate risk from sellers.

I dont agree that "sniping" is a good reason, but since it seems to garner so much negative feedback and you allow people to cancel auctions, I will help you come up with a solution that will remove the fear of being sniped while bringing balance back to the buyers in PRO. (Specifically auctions, because that is the only place with sellers have the unfair advantage.)

 

First, make it abundantly clear to auction sellers that if their publicly stated minimum start price is met, they must honor the sale. This is the obvious change that I have been arguing for. It brings a lot of comfort back to the buyer that is necessary for a healthy balance in auctions.

 

For the counterweight, you can educate and allow auctions sellers to add a rule that extends the end of their auction by up to three hours if someone bids within an hour of their publicly stated end time. Three hours is enough time to someone that is actively watching an auction to take action with a bid. This rule would also theoretically completely eliminate sniping. And combined with a healthy publicly stated minimum raise bid, the fear of "never ending auctions" wouldnt exist. And even if this rule causes an auctions to extend for an additional 24 hours, thats 6 more bids on an auction that I doubt the seller would complain about.

[Dzik16]

Input code auction or trading house to the game like rf online

[Bhimoso]

I only have a question regarding this recent point by Teerav:

 

"

For the counterweight, you can educate and allow auctions sellers to add a rule that extends the end of their auction by up to three hours if someone bids within an hour of their publicly stated end time. Three hours is enough time to someone that is actively watching an auction to take action with a bid. This rule would also theoretically completely eliminate sniping. And combined with a healthy publicly stated minimum raise bid, the fear of "never ending auctions" wouldnt exist. And even if this rule causes an auctions to extend for 24 hours, thats 6 more bids on an auction that I doubt the seller would complain about.

"

 

(Yes, I suck with the quoting option so I just did this instead).

 

However, wouldn't high money buyers still be able to snipe anyway? It would only remove low budget sellers from sniping it, as if they snipe it in the last hour, the auction would get extended and it would give others (including the same sniper) to do the same in the next three hours. Let's examine situation A:

A: This rule can be repeated infinitely. If this is what this rule implies, auctions for high and really wanted pokémon can be extended forever if there's no insta (since insta is optional, can be added later into the auction, and depending on the type of auctioneer, some might want it to extend as much as possible to gain absurd amounts of money since they're not in a rush to obtain this money. The others might actually care about getting the money quickly, so if they made auctions without instas (or very high instas) they would be forced to either wait for the bid wars to end or introduce an insta if they hadn't done it before, and they might've needed the cash urgently.

B: This rule can only happen once. Here I see the other issue: If sniper A snipes at the last minute, auction extends and sniper A still has a lot of money, he can wait again until the end of the auction and bid again upping his own previous bid sniping himself by a safe amount (if minimum bid is 100k, for example, he snipes for 300k) to ensure other snipers can't win. This would affect sniper B negatively if he has a low budget, or the exact budget to buy that poke in that auction, since he had calculated there wouldn't be as many snipers. If you want to implement this one, you should make or work around an idea to restrict the same sniper from doing the same over again, and it could be considered unfair: if he has the money, why can't he bid again? And why can't he do it in the same auction?

 

I understand sniping is an issue, and cancelling auctions too. However, I understand that there is situation A where the seller is not happy with just the starting bid and has gotten a better offer, but this offering person does not want to involve themselves in the auction (since they would be sniped). Thus, the seller just waits and if he's not convinced, he cancels it and sells it to the other bidder. I'm not convinced we should change it in this situation, the poke is 100% in the hands of the seller and he should have 100% control of it as long as he follows rules. I see that it might seem very unfair that they cancel it at the last moment, but thinking about it, the poke is never yours until it ends 100% and the transaction is properly done.

 

Regarding situation B: If an auctioneer is just repeatedly abusing this rule to do auctions over and over, cancel them all always at the last minute to see who pays the highest and then sell it in the background after auction has been canceled multiple times, I understand they could face consequences due to fake selling/auctioning (Though this is not really specified in rules, as long as I'm not mistaken). since they're just using the forums as price checks, not as real auctions. This is the issue I have with the rule, not if it only happens once twice or thrice, it would only be if an user maliciously exploited this rule over and over again.

Also sorry for the wall of text xD

[Voldis4]

Yep. i do think the rule is at minimal ridiculous .

 

I already saw that happen i reported some and nothing happen because of that .

i think 2-3 hours of thinking is enough to someone change the rules.

 

When someone start the action with the minimal price and the seller cancel because is not a good offer. rule 11 enter in action.

11. Fake Offering/Selling/Bidding with no intention to buy/sell is prohibited.