PRO's Moderation Discussion

[Purplemauth]

Officiality (Discord)

As the most prominently interlinked out-of-game chatting hub used by PRO, it is accepted as PRO's official out-of-game chat; as such, it is used as the go-to player-support real-time chat outside of the game, as well as a popular hub for conversing with the rest of the community.

 

Its rules are codified similarly and thus the same guidelines and rulings should be expected here as you would expect from any other medium in PRO's network of services.

 

I'm not complaining or anything, but I did notice that some leeway is given for profanity in the discord's general chat. I don't have an issue with that but it does seem contradictive in the sense that any sort of profanity used in All Chat is against the rules and for Discord that rule is slightly lessened.

 

Discord is completely separate from in game. Totally different rules, totally different moderators, totally different set up. Discord is also far more customizable (you can block people you dont like, bots will filter out certain things, etc.) where as in game the chat can't be prevented in anyway. The rules need to be different because they are not the same platform and each chat is functionally different.

[Thatkid]

Since it's considered an official chat shouldn't the official rules apply too.

[Qeight]

I have to agree that most of the responses in this topic really do make it seem like the moderation team isn't actually interested in feedback, which is discouraging.

Comments like this are discouraging, nothing else. We made the thread for a reason and you discrediting helps us 0 %.

My complaint is with over-moderating. I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that every instance of a minor infraction needs to be called out. Sometimes All chat is completely civil but then somebody writes 4 extra letters in a word and a mod jumps in to tell them not to do that. E.G. The person might say "Whaaaaat?" as a way of expressing disbelief and the mod will remind All chat not to spam excessive letters. At this point, the chat will become derailed as people are more concerned with why the mod is wasting everybody's time than with the original topic. That kind of moderation has the exact polar opposite of its intended effect. Rather than keeping chat clean and productive, it causes it to degrade and become more chaotic. And for what gain? I'm not talking about somebody spamming 5 lines of letters; I routinely see mods chime in because of a single-digit number of extra letters as if it's spam that is making it harder to read chat. It's not.

Is there a need to use excessive letters? Is there a need to spam? Is there a need to use vulgar language? Is there a need to be rude?

Those are all very simple things yet some don't agree with that. There are also some that don't agree with the game being PG and want to swear like nothing else.

Those things will not happen, with all due respect to everyone, we have to moderate otherwise it just ends up in chaos. How do I know that? I was there when no moderator was online and those things were left untouched. It was unpleasant to be around at best.

A warning is just that a warning, even if you are muted it doesn't go on your record.

It becomes very apparent that it's just "community vs staff", at some point and we will not have that type of thing in our game.

Similarly, the people who help in Help chat should be allowed to be humans for a moment here and there. Maybe I've just helped somebody with something difficult and they are trying to wrap their heads around it and I'll tell them "Yeah, I struggled at first, too. One time, I even had x happen to me. It was nuts". Technically my last couple sentences are 'not help' and belong elsewhere but at the same time they keep the channel feeling conversational and human. If a mod then tells me to keep it on-topic, they aren't really helping anybody. That doesn't improve the quality of help anybody gets or their ability to ask questions and be heard. It just makes everything awkward and sometimes it chases away the people who are actually there to help. I spend less time helping new players than I used to because of over-moderation of the Help channel.

Help Chat is that, a Help Chat. We have an All Chat for conversations, if the conversations goes too far off-topic you get warned. Helping new players is one thing, using Help Chat as second All Chat is another.

 

This thread literally died, kinda sad.

We still answer if posts come around.

 

Officiality (Discord)

I will not comment on that whatsoever, it is not our area and we keep your opinions about it to ourselves.

There are differences between Discord and the game, you need the game to play, you don't need the Discord to play.

 

Since it's considered an official chat shouldn't the official rules apply too.

No, rules are different per medium

[Saturnalien]

Hi,

 

here are a few things I noticed:

 

A lot of moderators do not like criticism. Whenever you question them, they become defensive real quick and it seems that it is never their fault, but always the players or something else.

 

Some moderators (and players in general) aren't as good as they think they are when it comes to the english language. They mistake harmless jokes or sayings for insults. This can be really frustrating, because once a moderator sees something as hostile, provoking etc, they will punish you regardless if it's really the case or not. This is especially scary if the head CM acts like this.

 

Another thing I noticed is that scammers often get a pass - either because they are long time players or because they hide their intentions behind stupid excuses. I know a few people who got banned for trying to call out scammers. Granted they might have gotten frustrated and insulted the decision making, but clearly they went in with intentions to help the community, instead they got shunned by the moderators and scammers get to roam free.

[Eldudorino]

Comments like this are discouraging, nothing else. We made the thread for a reason and you discrediting helps us 0 %.

Then why do you keep shooting down everything that anybody says? I believe that that undermines the purpose of this topic more than anything else. I see little more than argument from the moderation team in response to the question they themselves asked, which makes me feel like this topic isn't fulfilling its intended purpose and makes me feel like the players aren't really being heard.

 

Is there a need to use excessive letters? Is there a need to spam?

According to whose definition of "excessive letters" - mine or yours? Something like "Whaaaaat?" has a different meaning from "What?" and so yes, there is a need for that as much as there is a need for any other word we use to communicate. Calling a few extra letters "excessive" doesn't make any sense. The idea that having an extra few letters in a word will cause chat to descend into chaos is not in line with our reality. On the contrary, it's frequently the actions of the mods who jump in to tell people not to write a certain way that causes more chaos than anything else. I'm sure you've seen what happens when mods jump in and start saying every tiny thing is against the rules: normal conversation becomes essentially impossible until the mod leaves. When mods misbehave in this way, it actually causes people to be *more* likely to break the rules, not less. That isn't helpful.

 

Yes, of course there should be *some* moderation. I'm glad to see the moderators step in when vulgar language and [legitimately non-friendly] personal attacks are tossed around, or when people really are spamming the channel. The problem is that policing certain rules is taken to cartoonish extremes. I agree that people absolutely should not be allowed to post 30 lines of the same letter over and over, as that causes everybody else to be unable to read and enjoy the chat channel. Moderating that sort of activity is logical. However, the example I've given of somebody writing a few extra characters on one line is *not* disruptive to the flow of chat and it is not disruptive to anybody's enjoyment of the chat. To say that somebody can't write an extra few periods at the end of a phrase such as "Oh boy......." because it's "excessive" is just plain illogical. You don't help the chat when you do that; you only succeed in making people feel uncomfortable and like they aren't allowed to talk to one another.

 

And for the record, I have frequently seen mods break these rules. A couple of nights ago I saw a mod write something like "Guys.............................." Is the idea that mods can break rules but non-mods can't? Or is there maybe, just maybe, some legitimacy to the idea that what you call "excessive characters" is at times just a normal part of text conversation?

[Qeight]

Another thing I noticed is that scammers often get a pass

This invalidates everything you say because this is just not the case ever, like never ever would a scammer get a pass for scamming anyone. Your definition of scamming is different than ours. Someone posting that they want to sell a rather average Pokemon for 500k, is not scamming.

either because they are long time players or because they hide their intentions behind stupid excuses

Long time players do not get a pass for anything, in fact they are punished the same way as everyone else.

 

A lot of moderators do not like criticism. Whenever you question them, they become defensive real quick and it seems that it is never their fault, but always the players or something else.

There is criticism and then there is ranting about stuff because X/Y/Z. I have players who are disliking me because I didn't ban people they wanted to see banned (e.g lack of evidence). There is obviously deeply wrong if you think they can not take criticism as in fact if they actually done mistakes they would be taught how to improve. Most of the time players are just wrong, as sad as this sounds. As Moderator Team Leader I oversee complaints about my moderators and from experience I can tell you right away that 95% of these are just players ranting about a punishment when it was well within our Punishment Policy and rules were broken.

Players may not agree with rules but that doesn't give them the right to break and then complain about it.

 

Some moderators (and players in general) aren't as good as they think they are when it comes to the english language. They mistake harmless jokes or sayings for insults.

Can you give me an example?

 

Then why do you keep shooting down everything that anybody says?

Not the case, just explaining things from our POV.

I believe that that undermines the purpose of this topic more than anything else. I see little more than argument from the moderation team in response to the question they themselves asked, which makes me feel like this topic isn't fulfilling its intended purpose and makes me feel like the players aren't really being heard.

We already made changes based on this thread so this is just not true.

 

According to whose definition of "excessive letters" - mine or yours? Something like "Whaaaaat?" has a different meaning from "What?" and so yes, there is a need for that as much as there is a need for any other word we use to communicate. Calling a few extra letters "excessive" doesn't make any sense.

What is excessive? 5 more letter? 20? I draw the line at 5-6 because there is no reason for that.

excessive = more than is necessary, normal, or desirable; immoderate.

Are 5 or 20 more letters necessary?

 

On the contrary, it's frequently the actions of the mods who jump in to tell people not to write a certain way that causes more chaos than anything else. I'm sure you've seen what happens when mods jump in and start saying every tiny thing is against the rules: normal conversation becomes essentially impossible until the mod leaves. When mods misbehave in this way, it actually causes people to be *more* likely to break the rules, not less. That isn't helpful.

This is again just not the case or even remotely close to reality. I would like to see screenshots or a video of this actually happening in the fashion you are describing it.

 

you only succeed in making people feel uncomfortable and like they aren't allowed to talk to one another.

Doooooooooooo youuuuuuuuuu neeeeeeeeeeed toooooooo taaaaaaaaaaaalk liiiiiiiiiiiiikeeeeeeeeeeee thiiiiiiiiiisssssssssss toooooooo haaaaaaaaaaveeeeeeeeee itttttttt comfooooooooooortaaaaableeeeeeeeeeee fooooooooor youuuuuu?

 

I don't believe that is the case, drawing a line when its excessive is part of moderating spamming. Should you get warned for using 3 more letters or something? No. Should you get warned if you EXCESSIVELY use unnecessary characters. 100% yes as it fills up the chat with unnecessary things.

 

And for the record, I have frequently seen mods break these rules. A couple of nights ago I saw a mod write something like "Guys.............................." Is the idea that mods can break rules but non-mods can't? Or is there maybe, just maybe, some legitimacy to the idea that what you call "excessive characters" is at times just a normal part of text conversation?

I would like to see the evidence of that, obviously Mods can NOT break any rules and get sanctioned for behavior like that.

[Eldudorino]

You think players don't act up and chat doesn't get derailed when mods jump in and start warning everything all of a sudden? This happens every day. Players pick fights with the mods or try to troll the mods by playing dumb about the rules when moments before they were just having normal conversation. You're speaking in absolutes saying that it's not "even remotely close to reality" but frankly you are mistaken. Staff members doing things like typing "too many" periods in a sentence happens frequently as well, and since I like to crack wise I reminded one such staff member the other night to please not use excessive characters in their speech. I'm not about to take screenshots and try to tattle on a mod for talking like a normal human being, though. It's not bad that he/she broke the rule, because the fact that what they did is even against the rules in the first place is the real problem. It would be like trying to report a police officer for jaywalking on a residential street.

 

Doooooooooooo youuuuuuuuuu neeeeeeeeeeed toooooooo taaaaaaaaaaaalk liiiiiiiiiiiiikeeeeeeeeeeee thiiiiiiiiiisssssssssss toooooooo haaaaaaaaaaveeeeeeeeee itttttttt comfooooooooooortaaaaableeeeeeeeeeee fooooooooor youuuuuu?

And now it's like you're just trolling. Obviously nobody wants to see that, but it's easy to tear down somebody's point when you make up an extreme hyperbolic version of it that isn't what the person was even talking about. In a logically moderated system your message would not be allowed in All chat. But the real-life example I gave where a mod/CC/whatever said something like "Guys.............................." (I didn't count the periods but it was more than 6) has no logical reason to be moderated because the extra characters did not negatively impact the readability of the message or the flow of chat. Any rational person would agree that it's in no way detrimental, so there's no reason to give out warnings for behavior like that.

 

What surprised me is that you almost seemed to agree with me when you wrote this: "Should you get warned for using 3 more letters or something? No." And yet the 5-6 extra characters where you said you draw the line is exactly the kind of thing that gets warnings. I do have one screenshot from earlier today of a warning in response to a person writing "nooooooo" which contains 6 extra letters, although depending on what your sentence meant that may or may not fit your criteria of "excessive."

 

I did appreciate reading the first half of this sentence: "We already made changes based on this thread so this is just not true." But look at the second half of it. You're taking a constructive message and then still trying to fit a "So you're wrong" in at the end. But you know what, fair enough that as I'm re-reading the topic now, I do see some constructive responses from the moderation staff mixed in between the airing out of dirty laundry and condescending language. So hopefully the end result of this topic is more positive than what I've taken away from it.

[Saturnalien]

This invalidates everything you say because this is just not the case ever, like never ever would a scammer get a pass for scamming anyone. Your definition of scamming is different than ours. Someone posting that they want to sell a rather average Pokemon for 500k, is not scamming.

 

 

People (especially experienced players with second accounts etc) constantly try to sell new players pokemon like ditto, rattata lvl 80 etc in order to make a fast buck, knowing damn well these pokemon have to be your OT for certain quests. A lot of new players don't know this and therefore get scammed. I've seen mods defend this behaviour countless times. Or they lie to new players about certain shinies to snatch them cheap off new players, only to resell them for 10 times as much in trade or on the forum.

 

To be quiet frank it amazes me how you can be so nitpicky when it comes to chat (like excessive letters for example), but when someone legit gets ripped off because they don't have certain knowledge, you don't care and act as if it's not intentional.

 

Just one of many examples.

 

Long time players do not get a pass for anything, in fact they are punished the same way as everyone else.

 

Just because you say that doesn't make it true.

 

 

There is criticism and then there is ranting about stuff because X/Y/Z. I have players who are disliking me because I didn't ban people they wanted to see banned (e.g lack of evidence). There is obviously deeply wrong if you think they can not take criticism as in fact if they actually done mistakes they would be taught how to improve. Most of the time players are just wrong, as sad as this sounds. As Moderator Team Leader I oversee complaints about my moderators and from experience I can tell you right away that 95% of these are just players ranting about a punishment when it was well within our Punishment Policy and rules were broken.

Players may not agree with rules but that doesn't give them the right to break and then complain about it.

 

And who decides what is what? I'm not talking about tickets over bans, I'm talking in general. But it's funny that you proved my point with your reply. According to you "most of the time players are just wrong" and you guys are never wrong. :)

 

Anyway, I'm not here to argue. Just wanted to share my observations and thoughts. I probably won't respond anymore, so have a good one.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Saturnalien

[Gleipnirkurea]

Complaints about moderators in game always shuting down topics even if there not bad and geting mute banned for no reason

 

If theres an orange word in any text the person that said it should get muted regardless if mistake or not. Just how it is.

[Qeight]

You think players don't act up and chat doesn't get derailed when mods jump in and start warning everything all of a sudden?

Everything that breaks our current rules, everything is again just not the reality of things.

 

layers pick fights with the mods or try to troll the mods by playing dumb about the rules when moments before they were just having normal conversation. You're speaking in absolutes saying that it's not "even remotely close to reality" but frankly you are mistaken. Staff members doing things like typing "too many" periods in a sentence happens frequently as well, and since I like to crack wise I reminded one such staff member the other night to please not use excessive characters in their speech. I'm not about to take screenshots and try to tattle on a mod for talking like a normal human being, though. It's not bad that he/she broke the rule, because the fact that what they did is even against the rules in the first place is the real problem. It would be like trying to report a police officer for jaywalking on a residential street.

If you are not willing to provide evidence for what you are saying then how do you expect me to help you? This is not productive whatsoever. :)

 

And now it's like you're just trolling. Obviously nobody wants to see that, but it's easy to tear down somebody's point when you make up an extreme hyperbolic version of it that isn't what the person was even talking about. In a logically moderated system your message would not be allowed in All chat.

Correct, nobody wants to see this. We do not want to see WTB<Pikachu!!!!!!!!!!_!!!!!!!!, because that's just excessive. Give or take 5~ characters are fine above that it becomes excessive.

But the real-life example I gave where a mod/CC/whatever said something like "Guys.............................." (I didn't count the periods but it was more than 6) has no logical reason to be moderated because the extra characters did not negatively impact the readability of the message or the flow of chat. Any rational person would agree that it's in no way detrimental, so there's no reason to give out warnings for behavior like that.

If one guy does it, everyone does it. Do you want a chat where everyone talks like that? We don't.

 

People (especially experienced players with second accounts etc) constantly try to sell new players pokemon like ditto, rattata lvl 80 etc in order to make a fast buck, knowing damn well these pokemon have to be your OT for certain quests. A lot of new players don't know this and therefore get scammed. I've seen mods defend this behaviour countless times. Or they lie to new players about certain shinies to snatch them cheap off new players, only to resell them for 10 times as much in trade or on the forum.

To be quiet frank it amazes me how you can be so nitpicky when it comes to chat (like excessive letters for example), but when someone legit gets ripped off because they don't have certain knowledge, you don't care and act as if it's not intentional.

3. Scamming, misleading or deceiving other players is prohibited and will be aggressively sanctioned.

All there is to say, saying we do not enforce this is just plain wrong and not worth discussing further.

 

Just because you say that doesn't make it true.

It actually does because I can see every case, every report, every action taken by our staff. I can see what gets sanctioned, I can see who provides evidence of actual scamming, I can see trade logs and more. I am not a Trademoderator so I don't deal with it on a day to day basis however I can assure you that "old players" do not get a pass. This assumption is just incorrect.

 

And who decides what is what? I'm not talking about tickets over bans, I'm talking in general. But it's funny that you proved my point with your reply. According to you "most of the time players are just wrong" and you guys are never wrong. :)

Nobody said that staffs are never wrong, we learn from our mistakes however if I see complaints about why people can't talk about genocide or incest then I can say with certainty that players are wrong in that subject. I also can say that players say we punish older players less harsh than newer players is also wrong. When players tell us we bias ban people, I can safely say that this is not the case as I was falsely banned for 8 months by former staff. I wouldn't allow such things to happen to anyone.

 

I can tell you how we decide that, we look at the evidence we collect before issuing any punishments. A common complaint from players is "X Mod muted me for no reason", the complaints usually go as follows "I post all warnings, screenshots and reasons for the mutes" and they either realize their mistake or they don't but nobody gets punished out of the blue. If they do, feel free to report it.