PVP Feedback - Baton Pass

[Soggyteabag]

+1 nakofum

 

+1 mcschitter

 

You missed milotic btw

Milotic walls the raindance manaphy set and then hazes in return.

 

 

Also, I don't think that the full capabilities of baton pass have been explored yet. Passing to lapras is a good start, but I really haven't seen people try to pass to lesser used pokes. For example, Kingler is a fantastic breaker with stab liquidation + sheer force + sd. Its below average speed can be mitigated by baton passing. Overall baton pass just introduces so much variety in a otherwise standard meta with no innovation or creativity right now.

 

To address other issues:

 

IT STRAIGHT UP LOOSES TO HYPER OFFENCE

 

yeah that's right. Virtually any faster paced team shuts down bp. For one, most hyper offence teams carry at least 2-3 prio users to beat down any attempt to set up and sweep (for the record, manaphy only resists 2 prios: bullet punch and aqua jet, togekiss resists 1 prio: mach punch) . And second, most every pokemon is offensively oriented even if the opponent baton passes out, you should be able to predict whatever pokemon the are gonna pass to and deal significant amounts of damage.

 

 

Ex: Lucario against Scolipede

 

Oh, they have a manaphy which resists bullet punch, so I can close combat into espeed here and knock it out.

 

or

 

Oh, they have a togekiss which resists close combat, so I can meteor mash here into espeed and knock it out.

 

Point made

 

Its unpredictability:

 

Only in 2 ways,

1: teambuilding

2: switching/passing

 

1: Ok sure, you get some powerful wall breaker like crawdaunt or medicham and you pass speed to it. Great! . . . no one does that lol. In the hundreds of games that I've played, I have yet to see someone exploit baton pass in such a manner. Literally everyone uses the same 3-4 mons (manaphy lucario/conk togekiss) to abuse baton pass. People don't use other pokes cause quite simply, they just aren't that good. Surprise Surprise

 

2: You have abusers that can switch into a move which they resist and then proceed to set up

Solution: Predict. Its really not that hard to predict. Just try to think what poke they are going to bpass to then attack with a supereffective move, a move that hits them neutrally, or switch to a counter/something that walls it. ITS THAT EASY

 

A weak argument in general.

 

Also, manaphy was uber in gen5 cause of endless weather.

It was ou in subsequent gens.

The powercreep is why baton pass was banned in later gens. Pokemon just got more and more powerful. (gen6 megas, gen7 zmoves)

Of course baton pass will be banned here. I can't imagine anyone allowing someone passing speed to a mega-medicham and thinking that's fair and balenced.

 

PSYCHIC TERRAIN

Imagine a baton pass team thats immune to priority.

Point and Case.

 

These techs aren't here yet so its still a-ok to run baton pass.

 

Overall:

 

Ty for reading this. Sorry for my bad english

If you are losing to baton pass run HO

I doubt everyone who is trying to ban baton pass has actually run it (not kups/glog's standard one) for an extendend period of time. (400 battles +)

If you are really afraid of baton pass you probably haven't played around with it and used various pokes to abuse it. Its ridiculously hard making a new baton pass from scratch and using lesser used pokes like porygon-z or moltres which may seem good on paper, but don't perform as well in game.

 

Don't quote me, I'm tired of this thread already.

Edited May 3, 2020 by SoggyTeaBag

[Stavd]

i agree with the ban of baton pass...an experienced baton pass player has huge advantage against all other strategies...he can only be countered by consecutive lucky guesses and bad luck (eg miss air slash)...i also agree with the argument, that +1 speed when switching in, makes op pokes like Manaphy, Togekiss, Lucario and Garchomp Uber...And if you haven t guessed correctly, they get one free round to Tail Glow, Nasty Plot or Swords Dance...That gives baton pass users a huge advantage...Also Unaware pokes (Clefable, Quagsire) do not stand a chance against baton pass sweepers like togekiss, manaphy, lucario...The only solution is trick room...

It is the only strategy that can t be countered by one or two pokes (like rain that can be countered by chansey or sassy ferro or gastrodon or mantine, sun that can be countered by garchomp, heatran, sand that can be countered by conkeldurr etc), and requires a specific set up in order to secure your chances and not be completely based on predictions and lucky guesses...

[Zytrax]

Yeah lemme just ban all the threats to my team so when i q, me and everyone else's ladder results are completely skewed.

bann all the threats by banning 1 or 2 pokemon sure XD

[Logan]

I won't comment in context, but next time I will see a sarcastic/disrespectful comment I will just delete it.

[Aggs]

Woops, pressed enter while writing this. This text will be deleted when my post is finished c:

 

TL;DR Baton Pass is not overpowered for the meta currently. Free Turns, Free Turns, Free Turns.

 

ASSUME SCOLIPEDE IS THE BATON PASSER UNLESS OTHERWISE MENTIONED

 

Baton Pass as an archetype thrives on attempting to force the opponent into giving you free turns, and turning those free turns into advantage, such as a Speed Boosted Togekiss or Manaphy. The receiver is determined based on both teams, and which is more likely to actually end the game. Togekiss and Manaphy pair well, as they accomplish similar things while also covering for each other. Both are fairly bulky SPATK setup mons that can beat Chansey and Blissey 1v1 due to the nature of their resilience to status, through Heal Bell and Hydration respectively. Manaphy is better for taking on teams that have more Flying resists and good Steel Priority, namely Heatran, Magnezone, and Scizor, whereas Togekiss is better at taking down the bulky Grasses and Water Immunities for Manaphy. Along with a Rocks Setter and good breakers, you get an Offensive team meant to capitalize on passive play, and meant to steamroll through slower games.

 

However, there are quite a few flaws to a Baton Pass team built this way. For starters, if Baton Pass is against a faster-paced team, such as Volt-Turn offense or H.O., then Baton Pass realistically has no opportunity to start the train going, because there are almost never free turns. In PRO, there is no Substitute, which is the beholder of taking advantage of free turns, which forces the Baton Pass user to actually play the game, rather than twiddling their thumbs and pressing buttons in an un-interactive way. Protect is also not coded correctly, in the sense that you cannot Protect again after failing to Protect due to a switch, which gives away the free Speed that Baton Passers just love, although this is more than compensated by the Volt-Turn +1 Speed. Also in PRO, ANY NON-SPEED STAT LOWERING EFFECT WILL EFFECTIVELY SHUT DOWN SPEED PASSING. This is easily accessible, ranging from Intimidate, to Defog, or any drop from moves such as Shadow Ball, Moonblast, Play Rough, Earth Power, the rarer Energy Ball, and so on(These moves were listed first as they were the moves that came to mind if the Baton Passer was forced into a position to be swapped in). These moves, alongside the option of Haze, Roar, Whirlwind, and Dragon Tail, make any time spent getting Speed and Attack/Spatk boosts utterly wasted. Lastly, due to the common weaknesses of Rock and Electric between the main 3-centric baton core of Scoli/Mana/Toge, forcing another member of their team to take unfavorable damage on the Pass will severely hinder their ability to dissemble your own team.

 

 

Just a little tidbit for other Passers:

Espeon tl;dr Just hit it lol

 

Espeon is so frail that attacking it before it can Calm Mind is just imperative. Doing anything else is essentially throwing, there isn't an easier way to put it. Bold Espeon is too slow to the point that slower threats such as Dragonite, Chandelure, and other Pokemon around that speed or faster, never allow it to get free turns. Timid is nearly the embodiment of paper, so if you sneeze on it, it'll surely faint. A Focus Sash cannot save Espeon from the Pursuit Trappers, as it fails to OHKO any of them with realistic moves (HP Fighting for Weavile and Bisharp), and will always be 2HKO regardless (OHKO in Tyranitar Case thanks to Sand). Rotom-Wash using Volt Switch into any Pursuit Trapper is the doom of Espeon. Rotom is almost always top 10 usage at worst, and with the rise of Muk-Alolan or the existing Weavile, this scenario is more than likely to turn the game to 5v6.

 

Potential Offense before a Baton Pass or Calm Mind:

[spoiler=Timid SPATK/SPEED Espeon]252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 200-236 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 258-304 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 200-236 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Running HP Fire means you will always lose to Gengar if you are not running Focus Sash)

252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

[spoiler=Bold HP/DEF Espeon]0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 166-196 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 214-252 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 166-196 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

 

 

Potential Defense before a Baton Pass or Calm Mind:

 

 

[spoiler=Timid SPATK/SPEED Espeon]252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 361-429 (133.2 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Espeon: 208-246 (76.7 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Espeon: 304-359 (112.1 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 200-236 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (143 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 220-261 (81.1 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 247-292 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 278-330 (102.5 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Espeon: 272-324 (100.3 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

[spoiler=Bold HP/DEF Espeon]252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 237-281 (70.9 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Espeon: 304-359 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 186-218 (55.6 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 208-247 (62.2 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Espeon: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage

 

 

It just gets eaten alive, without enough offensive pressure to always get the kill, without Focus Sash as Timid. I kind of find it depressing that Espeon doesn't even OHKO a Greninja with a -SpDef Nature as Bold, but that's not the point here. What's the counterplay to an Espeon in a match up of the likes of Chansey or MG Clefable, where they are not able to put out that kind of pressure immediately? In the case of Chansey, there's almost nothing you can do, to be honest. Chansey is a Pokemon that gives heaps of free turns more often than not, and setup Pokemon always take advantage of Chansey, Espeon is no different. It's similar to the MG Clef case, due to Magic Bounce blocking status moves targeting the Opponent. MG Clef's best option is to go into a teammate that can pressure the Espeon. This is, however, considering ALL of Espeon's options. An Espeon with Stored Power will beat an Unaware Clef with enough boosts, but early on Espeon will not threaten Chansey or Blissey enough. With a low base HP, Timid Espeon just doesn't have the time to pummel over the SpDef giants:

+2 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 208-246 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 13.6% chance to 3HKO (Alongside +2 Spdef that comes with calm mind)

Espeon has to be used towards the end of mid-game to warrant any real threat, if any at all. It's just not good.

 

 

Literally any other Current Baton Passer:

It's pretty much the same as Espeon, whereas if you don't give free turns, they will not get the momentum they need to snowball. Aside from Togekiss and Mew, all of the other passers lack any offense whatsoever on their own. Just hit them with decent moves or taunt them. Please. Don't give them free turns, and you will be in a much better spot.

 

I've pretty much repeated the same thing quite a bit by now: Do not give free turns. What does this exactly mean? Giving away a free turn is doing something that does not apply pressure on the opponent that turn, such as healing, switching, or using a status move, and it going unpunished. Depending on the situation, these moves may go punished. However, these options may allow your opponent to do the same thing. The severity of the punishment is what truly decides whether a turn is free or not. A couple of example situations:

 

[spoiler=Examples]Player 1 - Player 2

Gliscor vs Rotom-Wash - Gliscor is Swapped Out for Ferrothorn, and Rotom-Wash Defogs away Stealth Rocks and Spikes.

This situation is essentially a free turn for both players, however, this creates an extra free turn for Player 1, as Rotom-Wash(without HP Fire or Wisp) cannot punish Ferrothorn directly. I would say that Player 1 won out of that exchange.

 

Player 1 - Player 2

Scolipede vs Rotom-Wash(Specs) - Scolipede uses Baton Pass, and switches in Garchomp, and Rotom-Wash Hydro Pumped, landing the hit.

This situation just turned sour for Player 1, as they were expecting a Volt Switch from Rotom-Wash. They attempted to make the most of their turn, by trying to get in Garchomp without taking damage. This also wastes the turn or turns spent adding Speed Boosts, as now Garchomp is susceptible to a Priority Attack, if it didn't die to Hydro Pump already. Player 2 won the exchange.

 

 

 

And, to top it all off, I will add 3 replays, 2 from the most recent Ladder Tournament, and one from the 24th Ladder Tournament(Started in Sept. 2019), which showcases exactly what happens when Baton Pass is given free turns, with a short analysis of the turns given away for free, and what could've been done to prevent it.

 

Replay 1: Volbeat Baton Pass.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-1095421229

[spoiler=Analysis]

 

Stall vs Baton Pass is a terrible match up for stall no matter how you look at it. Baton needs to run stallbreakers such as Heal Bell Plot Roost Togekiss, or Rain Dance Manaphy, to have a shot at getting through an evenly-skilled player, and these stallbreakers do their jobs well. This game shows why giving away free turns so easily is a loss for stall.

Turn 1: Chansey vs Dugtrio - Chansey is Switched to Amoonguss, Dugtrio gets up Rocks.

 

It's Stall vs Baton Pass, and the suicide lead is gonna get up rocks. There isn't much you can do to stop the rocks here. Swapping out was the most poor decision here in my opinion, as at least trading Stealth Rocks means the Stall Player can start racking up damage as the Baton Player switches. Giving any type of offensive team free SR with no contesting is a huge problem already. Baton 1 - 0 Stall

 

Turn 2: Amoonguss vs Dugtrio - Dugtrio uses Earthquake, Amoonguss uses Spore.

 

The Dugtrio has absolutely 0 reason to switch out, as it getting spored is best case scenario, meaning Amoonguss cannot spore anything else. Giga Drain(assuming it has it) would've been the best decision by far, as it would mitigate the Earthquake impact immediately. The turn doesn't have immediate impact, but is crucial for the long-term. Baton 2 - 0 Stall

 

Turn 3: Amoonguss vs Dugtrio - Dugtrio is Switched to Volbeat, Amoonguss uses HP Ice.

 

If the Stall Player had used Giga Drain the previous turn, I would not think that the HP Ice play would not have been as bad, as it does more to the potential Volbeat than Giga Drain would. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Based on the damage, we can assume the Volbeat is some +Spdef nature. Damage on Volbeat is crucial, so if the Baton Pass is thwarted, then Volbeat cannot attempt a huge push again. Baton 3 - 0 Stall

 

Turn 4: Amoonguss vs Volbeat - Amoonguss is Switched to Zapdos, Volbeat uses Tail Glow.

 

NO! No no no no no! You cannot ever do this. This is the most free turn that Volbeat could have gotten. Based on this play, and this play alone, I know the Stall Player is inexperienced with stall. That switch-out means this Amoonguss does not have Clear Smog, which is essential on a team that is weak to MG Clefable with Toxic. The score for the Baton - Stall does not matter, as no amount of points can measure how much momentum is gained here.

 

Turn 5: Zapdos vs Volbeat - Volbeat uses Tail Glow, Zapdos uses Heat Wave.

 

Finally, the Volbeat gets hit for real, but at this point it's too little too late. It's at +6 now, and is ready to Baton Pass.

 

Turn 6: Zapdos vs Volbeat - Zapdos is switched to Chansey, Volbeat Baton Passes to Nidoking.

 

Once again, even at this position, YOU CANNOT SWITCH LIKE THIS, YOU GIVE A FREE TURN AND LOSE HARDER. Going for any damage at all is necessary, or otherwise you will get swept. In 6 turns, the Stall Player has attacked twice. That's 4 turns of freedom within 6 turns, and a team given 4 turns of freedom in that short amount of time should essentially win the game on the spot. And that is what happened.

 

Turn 7: Chansey vs Nidoking - Nidoking uses Focus Blast and misses, Chansey uses Stealth Rocks.

 

Look, I cannot believe that games similar to this are deemed as Baton Pass being broken. Of course a +6 Nidoking is broken, it took 3 turns to setup. But when players, who are suppose to be at the higher end of skill in PRO, cannot deal with a Baton Team in a meaningful way, there really is no one to blame besides the player base's willingness to improve. You can say that at this point, it wouldn't matter what the Chansey goes for, and it may be because of a tilt factor. But this game is just one example of a free win for Baton Pass, because the opponent does not challenge it.

 

 

 

 

Replay 2: Togekiss Baton Pass.

 

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-979595157

 

 

To Be Continued

Edited May 8, 2020 by Aggs

[Glogs]

I'll try to go over a few misconceptions I've seen in this thread and try to give my take on them. I also feel like this is the place to share my disappointment with how the ban was handled.

 

First of all, we can agree that the Speed Boost bug empowers Baton Pass. However, wanting Baton Pass banned because of a bugged ability seems like the wrong way to go about it.

I would elaborate more here, but I'd essentially end up repeating myself, so I'll save it for the conclusion instead.

 

There's a lot of "Showdown this" and "Showdown that" which, given the circumstances, isn't completely unreasonable.

I see people mentioning the thread that got Baton Pass banned in Gen 7 OU and when reading it, I wonder if they did. I wonder if they watched the replays linked. If you did, I assume you would've noticed a few common factors, namely Dugtrio with Arena Trap and Scolipede having access to Substitute + a properly working Baton Pass.

All that just means, that we're comparing a "complete" metagame with that of PRO's. We're comparing working mechanics to those of PRO. We're comparing Pokémon like Necrozma and Magearna with the likes of Togekiss and Manaphy. We're not accurately taking into consideration the lack of Substitute and the presence of Arena Trap Dugtrio. Maybe this is a good time to mention that the Dugtrio run on those teams was run with Memento in order to cripple the opponent and give Scolipede a more or less free Substitute.

 

Adding a little onto the previous paragraph, I feel it's important to stress that PRO should not strive to become the Smogon/Showdown metagame. If that's the direction we're heading in, there's no reason to not just play on Showdown to begin with. Shoutout to Qeight for mentioning that and finally adding some stats to the discussion, but more about that later.

As a final note to that, the quote beneath hits right in the feels.

 

I had the PvP Council in mind because I wanted to give players what they wanted but most people don't even know what they want or PvP, people who backhanded complain in Admins DMs or on PRO Discord are the ones who haven't played the game in months. It saddens me that those people even have a voice, they shouldn't. They don't play but ask for bans when majority of the people don't play it. It is a shame.

 

Yes, Manaphy is a controversial Pokémon and so is Togekiss (with scarf too). It removes a lot of skill expression when you're continously flinched down without being able to do much. Togekiss is inherently uncompetitive, I think we can all agree.

Is it so different from other sweepers though? Bisharp restricts teambuilding as well. Lucario too? Volcarona? You need answers for a lot of different setup Pokémon in order not to lose in Team Preview. When I'm teambuilding, I'm much more scared of getting swept by Bisharp and Lucario than I am scared of Manaphy. Regardless of my own preference, you need checks or counters for certain offensive mons. If you don't have a counter or hard check for these threats, you must be able to generate enough offensive pressure to prevent them from setting up in the first place, regardless of Baton Pass.

 

I actually quite like that one of my questions was used for the post. Shoutout to the guy who passed it on, you know who you are.

For those unfamiliar with it, here we are: "What does the opponent do while Scolipede passes Speed?". I think it's a great question, cause the same can be asked about a bunch of different set up mons. Bisharp SD? Lucario SD? Volcarona QD? Togekiss NP? Manaphy TG?

The argument: "Just press protect and get 1 free turn on something Scolipede is good into" (as I'm reading it) really doesn't make sense. Protect is not coded correctly, so while we're on a thread of a bugged move, it may interest you to know that the move Protect is a lot stronger on Showdown than it is on PRO. If you Protect and the opponent switches out, it fails every time (I've never seen it work anyways, and I've played a lot of stall in my time on PRO). This bug inherently makes it a lot weaker to press Protect on the initial turn you come in, as Protect does not limit the switches the opponent can make in any way shape or form, which means it should never be "free".

To clarify how it's different than it is on Showdown:

On Showdown Protect works 100% of the time the second time it is used if the opponent switched out on the initial turn.

 

Yes, there's several "abusers" that can receive speed boosts and do well with them. Is that so different from how hyper-offensive teams have more than one threat?

In the end, both are about momentum. If you lose momentum with either, you're likely out of the game unless your opponent just wants you to win. The most commonly used Baton Pass team could in many ways be interpreted as another variation of the hyper-offense archetype.

Baton Pass aims to capitalize on the opponents mistakes and will do so aggresively (if played correctly). For the sake of the post, I'll say that players of equal skill will not make mistakes for the Baton Pass player to capitalize on, which is where the teams are much weaker and unable to do much on their own initiative. The only reason Baton Pass has seen any form of success on the ranked ladder thus far, seems to have been because the team was built to not require speed boosts to function in the first place.

Anything I've seen apart from that have been "meme-ish" teams in the ladder tournament that the opponents were just ill-prepared for.

 

While there's a point in saying: "the real problem with this move is that it opens to tens or even hundreds of different vulnerabilities.", it sort of seems beside the main point.

You don't quick ban something that has already been explored in the meta-game because of its potential.

There's a few things that got banned because of their potentials, namely legends such as Shaymin-Sky and Darkrai.

Baton Pass is not in a similar situation, it has already been in the meta for a year and we've seen the meta adapt accordingly. We're seeing more priority moves and better answers to the common Baton Pass threats. We're seeing players being able to play against it better, now that they understand how the teams go about punishing mistakes.

 

If it isn't apparent as of yet, I don't believe Baton Pass should be banned.

If the comparison is made with the Smogon metagame, the move is just so much weaker than it is on Showdown. There's no Substitute, Protect doesn't work correctly and there's a lack of stronger abusers.

If we had data from last year around this time, I'm sure we'd see a quite significant change in some of the most used Pokémon, without having seen many new Pokémon being added to the game and ending up there (bar alolan-muk?). Point is, the meta shifts and players adapt to new threats accordingly. I don't think there has been a game-breaking Baton Pass team yet. The closest we've come is probably a player reaching rank 1 with it on Silver in 2019 (which would be me).

 

Having to revisit this topic in a few months if a player builds something that is gamebreaking is not a bad thing and it is definitely not a reason to ban it now.

There's no doubt in my mind that this move should be banned later, but I'll refer to the "it is definitely not a reason to ban it now".

 

That's about it for my thoughts on Baton Pass, so if that's all you were here for, feel free not to read any further.

I'd like to focus on the "how the ban was handled part" for the next segment.

------------------------------------

 

As Qeight already pointed out, the decision was made within the staff "PvP council". Logan said he'd take all responsibility for the ban, so I assume it's not toxic to mention him directly. I feel as if the decision was heavily influenced by one group of players and not so much by players who takes an opposite stand to it.

I had the pleasure of being consulted the day after the ban took place, which ended up meaning nothing for the outcome of this initially.

The way this temporary rule change was made is not a sustainable way of conducting rule changes and it has to change going forward.

While conferring with Logan the day after the ban, it was made clear that there was no protocol to be followed (which I was aware of, given the circumstances).

For me, it just begs the question: "Why not make a protocol first?". Baton Pass has been around for a long time now and it doesn't seem like an issue that can't be dealt with more appropriately than this.

Even if Baton Pass is deemed to be ban-worthy at this given time, I think the least we could do is create a proper protocol and run it through it before any final decision is made.

About a year ago, a few players and myself made a draft of how a PvP council could function. View that here.

It also answers a few common questions for those who are unfamiliar with how things are usually banned on Smogon.

Obviously, we don't have to follow their procedures, just as we don't have to follow their metagame.

We never ended up pushing the idea out there and I doubt many staff members ended up seeing the post, as it was also around this time Qeight announced the official post with questions. I never got around to posting on that one, I don't think.

 

TLDR of this section; If we have at least a modicum of respect for protocol and the playerbase as a whole, I think we enforce a do-over to avoid what I would call bad decisions becoming bad habits.

 

Best of regards,

[Heroofthestreet]

Woops, pressed enter while writing this. This text will be deleted when my post is finished c:

 

TL;DR Baton Pass is not overpowered for the meta currently. Free Turns, Free Turns, Free Turns.

 

ASSUME SCOLIPEDE IS THE BATON PASSER UNLESS OTHERWISE MENTIONED

 

Baton Pass as an archetype thrives on attempting to force the opponent into giving you free turns, and turning those free turns into advantage, such as a Speed Boosted Togekiss or Manaphy. The receiver is determined based on both teams, and which is more likely to actually end the game. Togekiss and Manaphy pair well, as they accomplish similar things while also covering for each other. Both are fairly bulky SPATK setup mons that can beat Chansey and Blissey 1v1 due to the nature of their resilience to status, through Heal Bell and Hydration respectively. Manaphy is better for taking on teams that have more Flying resists and good Steel Priority, namely Heatran, Magnezone, and Scizor, whereas Togekiss is better at taking down the bulky Grasses and Water Immunities for Manaphy. Along with a Rocks Setter and good breakers, you get an Offensive team meant to capitalize on passive play, and meant to steamroll through slower games.

 

However, there are quite a few flaws to a Baton Pass team built this way. For starters, if Baton Pass is against a faster-paced team, such as Volt-Turn offense or H.O., then Baton Pass realistically has no opportunity to start the train going, because there are almost never free turns. In PRO, there is no Substitute, which is the beholder of taking advantage of free turns, which forces the Baton Pass user to actually play the game, rather than twiddling their thumbs and pressing buttons in an un-interactive way. Protect is also not coded correctly, in the sense that you cannot Protect again after failing to Protect due to a switch, which gives away the free Speed that Baton Passers just love, although this is more than compensated by the Volt-Turn +1 Speed. Also in PRO, ANY NON-SPEED STAT LOWERING EFFECT WILL EFFECTIVELY SHUT DOWN SPEED PASSING. This is easily accessible, ranging from Intimidate, to Defog, or any drop from moves such as Shadow Ball, Moonblast, Play Rough, Earth Power, the rarer Energy Ball, and so on(These moves were listed first as they were the moves that came to mind if the Baton Passer was forced into a position to be swapped in). These moves, alongside the option of Haze, Roar, Whirlwind, and Dragon Tail, make any time spent getting Speed and Attack/Spatk boosts utterly wasted. Lastly, due to the common weaknesses of Rock and Electric between the main 3-centric baton core of Scoli/Mana/Toge, forcing another member of their team to take unfavorable damage on the Pass will severely hinder their ability to dissemble your own team.

 

 

Just a little tidbit for other Passers:

Espeon tl;dr Just hit it lol

 

Espeon is so frail that attacking it before it can Calm Mind is just imperative. Doing anything else is essentially throwing, there isn't an easier way to put it. Bold Espeon is too slow to the point that slower threats such as Dragonite, Chandelure, and other Pokemon around that speed or faster, never allow it to get free turns. Timid is nearly the embodiment of paper, so if you sneeze on it, it'll surely faint. A Focus Sash cannot save Espeon from the Pursuit Trappers, as it fails to OHKO any of them with realistic moves (HP Fighting for Weavile and Bisharp), and will always be 2HKO regardless (OHKO in Tyranitar Case thanks to Sand). Rotom-Wash using Volt Switch into any Pursuit Trapper is the doom of Espeon. Rotom is almost always top 10 usage at worst, and with the rise of Muk-Alolan or the existing Weavile, this scenario is more than likely to turn the game to 5v6.

 

Potential Offense before a Baton Pass or Calm Mind:

[spoiler=Timid SPATK/SPEED Espeon]252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 200-236 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 258-304 (90.5 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 200-236 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 172-204 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (Running HP Fire means you will always lose to Gengar if you are not running Focus Sash)

252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

[spoiler=Bold HP/DEF Espeon]0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 166-196 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 214-252 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Espeon Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 166-196 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO

 

 

Potential Defense before a Baton Pass or Calm Mind:

 

 

[spoiler=Timid SPATK/SPEED Espeon]252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 361-429 (133.2 - 158.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Espeon: 208-246 (76.7 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Espeon: 304-359 (112.1 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Ferrothorn Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 200-236 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (143 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 220-261 (81.1 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 247-292 (91.1 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 278-330 (102.5 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Espeon: 272-324 (100.3 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

[spoiler=Bold HP/DEF Espeon]252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 237-281 (70.9 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Espeon: 304-359 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 186-218 (55.6 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Espeon: 208-247 (62.2 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Espeon: 169-201 (50.5 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and trapping damage

 

 

It just gets eaten alive, without enough offensive pressure to always get the kill, without Focus Sash as Timid. I kind of find it depressing that Espeon doesn't even OHKO a Greninja with a -SpDef Nature as Bold, but that's not the point here. What's the counterplay to an Espeon in a match up of the likes of Chansey or MG Clefable, where they are not able to put out that kind of pressure immediately? In the case of Chansey, there's almost nothing you can do, to be honest. Chansey is a Pokemon that gives heaps of free turns more often than not, and setup Pokemon always take advantage of Chansey, Espeon is no different. It's similar to the MG Clef case, due to Magic Bounce blocking status moves targeting the Opponent. MG Clef's best option is to go into a teammate that can pressure the Espeon. This is, however, considering ALL of Espeon's options. An Espeon with Stored Power will beat an Unaware Clef with enough boosts, but early on Espeon will not threaten Chansey or Blissey enough. With a low base HP, Timid Espeon just doesn't have the time to pummel over the SpDef giants:

+2 252 SpA Espeon Stored Power (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 208-246 (29.5 - 34.9%) -- 13.6% chance to 3HKO (Alongside +2 Spdef that comes with calm mind)

Espeon has to be used towards the end of mid-game to warrant any real threat, if any at all. It's just not good.

 

 

Literally any other Current Baton Passer:

It's pretty much the same as Espeon, whereas if you don't give free turns, they will not get the momentum they need to snowball. Aside from Togekiss and Mew, all of the other passers lack any offense whatsoever on their own. Just hit them with decent moves or taunt them. Please. Don't give them free turns, and you will be in a much better spot.

 

I've pretty much repeated the same thing quite a bit by now: Do not give free turns. What does this exactly mean? Giving away a free turn is doing something that does not apply pressure on the opponent that turn, such as healing, switching, or using a status move, and it going unpunished. Depending on the situation, these moves may go punished. However, these options may allow your opponent to do the same thing. The severity of the punishment is what truly decides whether a turn is free or not. A couple of example situations:

 

[spoiler=Examples]Player 1 - Player 2

Gliscor vs Rotom-Wash - Gliscor is Swapped Out for Ferrothorn, and Rotom-Wash Defogs away Stealth Rocks and Spikes.

This situation is essentially a free turn for both players, however, this creates an extra free turn for Player 1, as Rotom-Wash(without HP Fire or Wisp) cannot punish Ferrothorn directly. I would say that Player 1 won out of that exchange.

 

Player 1 - Player 2

Scolipede vs Rotom-Wash(Specs) - Scolipede uses Baton Pass, and switches in Garchomp, and Rotom-Wash Hydro Pumped, landing the hit.

This situation just turned sour for Player 1, as they were expecting a Volt Switch from Rotom-Wash. They attempted to make the most of their turn, by trying to get in Garchomp without taking damage. This also wastes the turn or turns spent adding Speed Boosts, as now Garchomp is susceptible to a Priority Attack, if it didn't die to Hydro Pump already. Player 2 won the exchange.

 

 

 

And, to top it all off, I will add 3 replays, 2 from the most recent Ladder Tournament, and one from the 24th Ladder Tournament(Started in Sept. 2019), which showcases exactly what happens when Baton Pass is given free turns, with a short analysis of the turns given away for free, and what could've been done to prevent it.

 

Replay 1: Volbeat Baton Pass.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-1095421229

[spoiler=Analysis]

 

Stall vs Baton Pass is a terrible match up for stall no matter how you look at it. Baton needs to run stallbreakers such as Heal Bell Plot Roost Togekiss, or Rain Dance Manaphy, to have a shot at getting through an evenly-skilled player, and these stallbreakers do their jobs well. This game shows why giving away free turns so easily is a loss for stall.

Turn 1: Chansey vs Dugtrio - Chansey is Switched to Amoonguss, Dugtrio gets up Rocks.

 

It's Stall vs Baton Pass, and the suicide lead is gonna get up rocks. There isn't much you can do to stop the rocks here. Swapping out was the most poor decision here in my opinion, as at least trading Stealth Rocks means the Stall Player can start racking up damage as the Baton Player switches. Giving any type of offensive team free SR with no contesting is a huge problem already. Baton 1 - 0 Stall

 

Turn 2: Amoonguss vs Dugtrio - Dugtrio uses Earthquake, Amoonguss uses Spore.

 

The Dugtrio has absolutely 0 reason to switch out, as it getting spored is best case scenario, meaning Amoonguss cannot spore anything else. Giga Drain(assuming it has it) would've been the best decision by far, as it would mitigate the Earthquake impact immediately. The turn doesn't have immediate impact, but is crucial for the long-term. Baton 2 - 0 Stall

 

Turn 3: Amoonguss vs Dugtrio - Dugtrio is Switched to Volbeat, Amoonguss uses HP Ice.

 

If the Stall Player had used Giga Drain the previous turn, I would not think that the HP Ice play would not have been as bad, as it does more to the potential Volbeat than Giga Drain would. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Based on the damage, we can assume the Volbeat is some +Spdef nature. Damage on Volbeat is crucial, so if the Baton Pass is thwarted, then Volbeat cannot attempt a huge push again. Baton 3 - 0 Stall

 

Turn 4: Amoonguss vs Volbeat - Amoonguss is Switched to Zapdos, Volbeat uses Tail Glow.

 

NO! No no no no no! You cannot ever do this. This is the most free turn that Volbeat could have gotten. Based on this play, and this play alone, I know the Stall Player is inexperienced with stall. That switch-out means this Amoonguss does not have Clear Smog, which is essential on a team that is weak to MG Clefable with Toxic. The score for the Baton - Stall does not matter, as no amount of points can measure how much momentum is gained here.

 

Turn 5: Zapdos vs Volbeat - Volbeat uses Tail Glow, Zapdos uses Heat Wave.

 

Finally, the Volbeat gets hit for real, but at this point it's too little too late. It's at +6 now, and is ready to Baton Pass.

 

Turn 6: Zapdos vs Volbeat - Zapdos is switched to Chansey, Volbeat Baton Passes to Nidoking.

 

Once again, even at this position, YOU CANNOT SWITCH LIKE THIS, YOU GIVE A FREE TURN AND LOSE HARDER. Going for any damage at all is necessary, or otherwise you will get swept. In 6 turns, the Stall Player has attacked twice. That's 4 turns of freedom within 6 turns, and a team given 4 turns of freedom in that short amount of time should essentially win the game on the spot. And that is what happened.

 

Turn 7: Chansey vs Nidoking - Nidoking uses Focus Blast and misses, Chansey uses Stealth Rocks.

 

Look, I cannot believe that games similar to this are deemed as Baton Pass being broken. Of course a +6 Nidoking is broken, it took 3 turns to setup. But when players, who are suppose to be at the higher end of skill in PRO, cannot deal with a Baton Team in a meaningful way, there really is no one to blame besides the player base's willingness to improve. You can say that at this point, it wouldn't matter what the Chansey goes for, and it may be because of a tilt factor. But this game is just one example of a free win for Baton Pass, because the opponent does not challenge it.

 

 

 

 

Replay 2: Togekiss Baton Pass.

 

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-979595157

 

 

To Be Continued

I stopped reading after the part when you said that Defog prevents the baton passer from using the move. Please check your 'facts' in game instead of assuming stuff, claiming them to be the evidence for something

[0danobunaga]

ANY NON-SPEED STAT LOWERING EFFECT WILL EFFECTIVELY SHUT DOWN SPEED PASSING. This is easily accessible, ranging from Intimidate, to Defog, or any drop from moves such as Shadow Ball, Moonblast, Play Rough, Earth Power, the rarer Energy Ball, and so on(These moves were listed first as they were the moves that came to mind if the Baton Passer was forced into a position to be swapped in).

White herb exists btw

[Y0da]

I'll try to go over a few misconceptions I've seen in this thread and try to give my take on them. I also feel like this is the place to share my disappointment with how the ban was handled.

 

First of all, we can agree that the Speed Boost bug empowers Baton Pass. However, wanting Baton Pass banned because of a bugged ability seems like the wrong way to go about it.

I would elaborate more here, but I'd essentially end up repeating myself, so I'll save it for the conclusion instead.

 

There's a lot of "Showdown this" and "Showdown that" which, given the circumstances, isn't completely unreasonable.

I see people mentioning the thread that got Baton Pass banned in Gen 7 OU and when reading it, I wonder if they did. I wonder if they watched the replays linked. If you did, I assume you would've noticed a few common factors, namely Dugtrio with Arena Trap and Scolipede having access to Substitute + a properly working Baton Pass.

All that just means, that we're comparing a "complete" metagame with that of PRO's. We're comparing working mechanics to those of PRO. We're comparing Pokémon like Necrozma and Magearna with the likes of Togekiss and Manaphy. We're not accurately taking into consideration the lack of Substitute and the presence of Arena Trap Dugtrio. Maybe this is a good time to mention that the Dugtrio run on those teams was run with Memento in order to cripple the opponent and give Scolipede a more or less free Substitute.

 

Adding a little onto the previous paragraph, I feel it's important to stress that PRO should not strive to become the Smogon/Showdown metagame. If that's the direction we're heading in, there's no reason to not just play on Showdown to begin with. Shoutout to Qeight for mentioning that and finally adding some stats to the discussion, but more about that later.

As a final note to that, the quote beneath hits right in the feels.

 

 

 

Yes, Manaphy is a controversial Pokémon and so is Togekiss (with scarf too). It removes a lot of skill expression when you're continously flinched down without being able to do much. Togekiss is inherently uncompetitive, I think we can all agree.

Is it so different from other sweepers though? Bisharp restricts teambuilding as well. Lucario too? Volcarona? You need answers for a lot of different setup Pokémon in order not to lose in Team Preview. When I'm teambuilding, I'm much more scared of getting swept by Bisharp and Lucario than I am scared of Manaphy. Regardless of my own preference, you need checks or counters for certain offensive mons. If you don't have a counter or hard check for these threats, you must be able to generate enough offensive pressure to prevent them from setting up in the first place, regardless of Baton Pass.

 

I actually quite like that one of my questions was used for the post. Shoutout to the guy who passed it on, you know who you are.

For those unfamiliar with it, here we are: "What does the opponent do while Scolipede passes Speed?". I think it's a great question, cause the same can be asked about a bunch of different set up mons. Bisharp SD? Lucario SD? Volcarona QD? Togekiss NP? Manaphy TG?

The argument: "Just press protect and get 1 free turn on something Scolipede is good into" (as I'm reading it) really doesn't make sense. Protect is not coded correctly, so while we're on a thread of a bugged move, it may interest you to know that the move Protect is a lot stronger on Showdown than it is on PRO. If you Protect and the opponent switches out, it fails every time (I've never seen it work anyways, and I've played a lot of stall in my time on PRO). This bug inherently makes it a lot weaker to press Protect on the initial turn you come in, as Protect does not limit the switches the opponent can make in any way shape or form, which means it should never be "free".

To clarify how it's different than it is on Showdown:

On Showdown Protect works 100% of the time the second time it is used if the opponent switched out on the initial turn.

 

Yes, there's several "abusers" that can receive speed boosts and do well with them. Is that so different from how hyper-offensive teams have more than one threat?

In the end, both are about momentum. If you lose momentum with either, you're likely out of the game unless your opponent just wants you to win. The most commonly used Baton Pass team could in many ways be interpreted as another variation of the hyper-offense archetype.

Baton Pass aims to capitalize on the opponents mistakes and will do so aggresively (if played correctly). For the sake of the post, I'll say that players of equal skill will not make mistakes for the Baton Pass player to capitalize on, which is where the teams are much weaker and unable to do much on their own initiative. The only reason Baton Pass has seen any form of success on the ranked ladder thus far, seems to have been because the team was built to not require speed boosts to function in the first place.

Anything I've seen apart from that have been "meme-ish" teams in the ladder tournament that the opponents were just ill-prepared for.

 

While there's a point in saying: "the real problem with this move is that it opens to tens or even hundreds of different vulnerabilities.", it sort of seems beside the main point.

You don't quick ban something that has already been explored in the meta-game because of its potential.

There's a few things that got banned because of their potentials, namely legends such as Shaymin-Sky and Darkrai.

Baton Pass is not in a similar situation, it has already been in the meta for a year and we've seen the meta adapt accordingly. We're seeing more priority moves and better answers to the common Baton Pass threats. We're seeing players being able to play against it better, now that they understand how the teams go about punishing mistakes.

 

If it isn't apparent as of yet, I don't believe Baton Pass should be banned.

If the comparison is made with the Smogon metagame, the move is just so much weaker than it is on Showdown. There's no Substitute, Protect doesn't work correctly and there's a lack of stronger abusers.

If we had data from last year around this time, I'm sure we'd see a quite significant change in some of the most used Pokémon, without having seen many new Pokémon being added to the game and ending up there (bar alolan-muk?). Point is, the meta shifts and players adapt to new threats accordingly. I don't think there has been a game-breaking Baton Pass team yet. The closest we've come is probably a player reaching rank 1 with it on Silver in 2019 (which would be me).

 

Having to revisit this topic in a few months if a player builds something that is gamebreaking is not a bad thing and it is definitely not a reason to ban it now.

There's no doubt in my mind that this move should be banned later, but I'll refer to the "it is definitely not a reason to ban it now".

 

That's about it for my thoughts on Baton Pass, so if that's all you were here for, feel free not to read any further.

I'd like to focus on the "how the ban was handled part" for the next segment.

------------------------------------

 

As Qeight already pointed out, the decision was made within the staff "PvP council". Logan said he'd take all responsibility for the ban, so I assume it's not toxic to mention him directly. I feel as if the decision was heavily influenced by one group of players and not so much by players who takes an opposite stand to it.

I had the pleasure of being consulted the day after the ban took place, which ended up meaning nothing for the outcome of this initially.

The way this temporary rule change was made is not a sustainable way of conducting rule changes and it has to change going forward.

While conferring with Logan the day after the ban, it was made clear that there was no protocol to be followed (which I was aware of, given the circumstances).

For me, it just begs the question: "Why not make a protocol first?". Baton Pass has been around for a long time now and it doesn't seem like an issue that can't be dealt with more appropriately than this.

Even if Baton Pass is deemed to be ban-worthy at this given time, I think the least we could do is create a proper protocol and run it through it before any final decision is made.

About a year ago, a few players and myself made a draft of how a PvP council could function. View that here.

It also answers a few common questions for those who are unfamiliar with how things are usually banned on Smogon.

Obviously, we don't have to follow their procedures, just as we don't have to follow their metagame.

We never ended up pushing the idea out there and I doubt many staff members ended up seeing the post, as it was also around this time Qeight announced the official post with questions. I never got around to posting on that one, I don't think.

 

TLDR of this section; If we have at least a modicum of respect for protocol and the playerbase as a whole, I think we enforce a do-over to avoid what I would call bad decisions becoming bad habits.

 

Best of regards,

 

 

Im gonna go on and ask you bro,since it seems like you are replying only to the things you want to reply to,why doesnt manaphy have a given move that raises its speed as well.simply because if tat was to be balanced it would be an option.maybe manapy would get quiver dance,or anoter move.instezd you cna only teac it tail glow and calm mind cause taking into consideration all the moveset,stats and ability options the only legitemently counter(after talonflame being banned which you didnt bother refering to while being te second factor after magerna being introduced to the game to finally get the baton banned)is to outspeed manaphy,especially on pro,since all of you guys really like talking about tings that we dont have so that baton becomes broken,you never really talk about the things we dont have to deal with it.simple excamble,easy one to understand,if you get toxapex into the game,suddenly you are forced to run psycic,otherwise you are forced to coose weater your manaphy is a sweeper/wallbreaker tats gonna be useless everytime you run onto a toxapex,or you run psychic to be able to deal with toxapex but suddenly ferro is an issue that could make the baton case look more balanced but obviously thats not the case,since there is no toxapex in the game.

also,imma say it again,i said it again,i will say it as many times as needed,qeight(owever thats spelled,i dont know the guy,never heard of im besides his staff name so excuse me if my spelling is wrong) gave you some statistcs based on how many people use it,and the success they find using it.it doesnt matter how many peoplesucceed on the usage,it doesnt make it balanced and imma go on and say it again with all the respect towards the community,most people are not good at pvp anyways and dont find succes wit anything they use.so if someone is gonna be bad at pvp,thats gonna happen no matter whateam the person is using and baton is no different.

That goes for the smogon comparisons too.the meta game is not smogon related or complete but that also means you lack tings to deal with it wichh again people that like baton dont really tink of or refer to for some reason which i dont understand(i like baton too btw but im trying my best ti be objective).

Also imma say that again,for everyone that uses it andnot just glogs,congrats for making rank1 on the ladder wit that team but that doesnt make your opinion more valuable than anyone alse's.also if we are being objective,we've seen people that were at best decent(take brandonlee1 for example) that legitemently the person won ladder tournament using tat team while not even being a good player(you gonna say baton on sd and pro is not te same obviously,i allready know that but it makesno sense at all)

at last,having answer for a specific pokemon is totally different than having answer for a pokemon that suddenyl can get stats which you dont get into consideration adn thats what baton does.i can have a lucario counter.now does my team need to be prepared for a lucario with 600 speed,well,imma go on and say no.and if anybody asks me why did i get swept by a lucario with 600 speed,imma go on and say cause i played the game for years and the max speed lucario can get is 306 and not 600.togekiss is a failed example as well that people dont get.glogssaid himself its a pokemon thats based on lack,so its an unskilled pokemon mostly based on lack but scarf togekisss and baton togekiss are two completely different things.obvious reason(nastly plot,baton one can be diffensive and stack and have more speed than a scarf kiss,etc,etc)but what inever udnerstood on what people held agsainst the baton pass was...if my kiss is scarfi canclick one move...then its not really that bulky...but at the same time its not even that fast for a scarf pokemon....on the other hhand..baton kiss is mostly bulky once like they shoudl be ofc,then tey stack with 600 speed..then if i dont have. pokemon that can oneshot it and has less than 600 speed obviously im gonna lose...and at the same time...if i have. apokemon that doesnt get oneshoted by togekiss and i get flinched which can happen,....again i can lose....but should i lose????it doesnt really sound to me...

this is probably my last post on anythhign related to pro....i feel like the game as failed several things and mostly good pvpers...its not a coinsidence all those good pvpers just quit the game...its mostly cause pvp cases get misstreated.baton pass should be banned though..there is no point of you for people that have an understanding for the game in wich baton is not broken...and even if its fan to lose and people that like using it try teir hhardest to save...yet it doesnt make it. abalanced move especially when its not supported by arguements and just personal experience.

best of luck to pro community,peace.

[Jorogumo]

As someone who was initially leaning toward a blanket Baton Pass ban, I decided to keep an open mind and listen to both sides, and I must admit that the anti-ban side has provided more convincing arguments than the pro-ban side thus far. There is a lot of misinformation going on and I think that some good points have been made and should be acknowledged. It is unfortunate that I only started PvPing again in PRO while Baton Pass is banned, so I had to do a lot of research to try to make up for my lack of in-game experience with the move/playstyle, although I ran into it a lot on Showdown.

 

Baton Pass is just not restricted to one player, it's for both players out there. So its fair to say both teams can use them in the way the want. If some uses boosted Togekiss then this that blah blah, the other guy can also do it, maybe even better it by boosting it on a different Pokemon or can come up with an epic counter, and that is what battle is all about. Besides baton pass is still used in OU battles in smogon, which basically means there ain't nothing "broke game" about it.

This is simply not true. Baton Pass is currently banned in ORAS OU and USUM OU and is even banned in many lower tiers. More and more tiers and previous generations are suspect testing Baton Pass. In 2019, USUM LC banned Baton Pass. It must also be said that banning or suspect testing Baton Pass in older generations, such as ADV OU and DPP OU, usually does not involve banning Baton Pass as a whole, but rather further restricting the currently implemented clauses. BW OU seems to be against a full ban of the move, although that thread and this one both show that the BW OU council may have acted against what the majority of players think by trying to impose the Shadow Tag ban, deeming trapping uncompetitive yet failing to explain why Magnet Pull has not been addressed in the BW OU metagame where it is arguably more problematic and certainly more common than Gothitelle. PRO does have some Gen 7 mechanics, but it is still weirdly trying to balance itself out between Gen 5 and Gen 6. I think that ORAS OU is the closest Smogon comparison, although I think that such comparisons can be dangerous sometimes. Pokémon Revolution Online is not Showdown and does not have to blindly follow Smogon's rules. In ORAS OU, Baton Pass underwent a lot of changes: it was first restricted to 3 Baton Pass users, but problems kept arising, so it was then narrowed down to 1 Baton Pass user, which was still not enough to prevent newer issues; the complex Baton Pass clause in its final form ultimately stated that there can only be 1 Baton Pass user that cannot pass speed with other stats. So many complex clauses were put in place to attempt to preserve a playstyle that became problematic whenever it picked up in usage. Yet again, Baton Pass teams managed to remain an issue because they always found a way to circumvent the implemented restrictions. NJNP used Lansat Berry Scolipede with Scope Lens Sniper Kingdra to prove why Baton Pass is inherently broken and will always be abused to get easy wins. You can be the judges: NJNP's 1st replay, NJNP's 2nd replay, and NJNP's 3rd replay. Yes, PRO does not have Substitute, which is a big component of Baton Pass. Yes, there are several issues hindering its efficiency. However, who is to say that someone will not find an intricate way to abuse Baton Pass in its current format? How long will we have to wait until someone finally breaks Baton Pass, thus causing even more outrage? If someone manages to find a way to do that in the future, it will actually be proof that Baton Pass is currently ban-worthy. I am not going to discuss the other part of the message I quoted because being able to use Mega Rayquaza against Mega Rayquaza (and other examples are endless) is evidently no proof that Mega Rayquaza can be healthy in PvP. If something is deemed ban-worthy (meaning either broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive), we should not be inciting players to use it as a countermeasure.

 

So, is Baton Pass broken, unhealthy, or uncompetitive? Well, this thread is an interesting read, although it mostly pertains to Smogon. I will summarize its main points for you, but please feel free to check it out. Smogon/Showdown uses skill as the main way to gauge someone's worth in competitive Pokémon. Yes, funnily enough, Pokémon happens to be one of the least competitive games due to all the luck- and RNG-based interactions. However, that is not an excuse for not trying to maximize skill-reliant match-ups and minimize skill-less mechanics as much as possible. As such, there are clauses regarding evasion, sleep, and whatnot. There are also Pokémon and ability bans. What is the definition of uncompetitive? Based on that thread, uncompetitive elements "reduce the effect of player choice/interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant." We then have some examples of uncompetitive features: "This can be match-up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match-up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough." What about broken then? Broken elements "are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant," but we also have the important following note in bold characters: "While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter/check component." Yes, an uncompetitive component of PvP does not have to be broken to warrant a ban. And what does unhealthy mean? Unhealthy elements "are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit 'skillful play' to a large extent." It is important to understand that these words are not mutually exclusive, yet not necessarily interchangeable. Something deemed ban-worthy can be uncompetitive and broken, but it only needs to satisfy one of those definitions. What makes Baton Pass inherently uncompetitive? When players discussed this on Smogon (cf. this thread), they did not mention any specific Pokémon (e.g., Manaphy), but allow me to share some of their thoughts:

 

 

 

 

Out of fairness, I included the last statement, which is more moderate and does not deem all of Baton Pass to be uncompetitive. However, as proven in ORAS OU, Baton Pass as a whole was still considered to be uncompetitive, which ultimately led to its ban in 2018:

 

 

The main culprit? Scolipede. Why not just ban Scolipede? Well, because there is no point in preserving a move that has to be almost restricted to nothingness to keep being used! It already is a shadow of its former self! Some people even suggested preserving DryPass (using Baton Pass without passing any stats, simply to switch out, sometimes also to avoid Pursuit). Why should we bother with an inherently uncompetitive feature of the game? If Scolipede were to be banned, someone might find another Baton Pass (ab)user. I said might, not will. Who knows? The move is uncompetitive by nature, so it will remain problematic as long as it is allowed. Here is an interesting Reddit thread explaining why Baton Pass is uncompetitive:

 

 

 

 

 

I will mostly talk about Speed Boost Scolipede, which seems to be the most commonly used Baton Pass user. Baton Pass in PRO surely uses Pokémon that all teams should naturally be prepared for regardless, right? To an extent, yes, but let's keep in mind that preparing for Manaphy is not the same as preparing for +1 Manaphy, which then outspeeds and KOs anything that would otherwise be able to outspeed it and check it (e.g., Serperior). Defensively, you might think that this does not make a difference at all, but it definitely does. If someone is running Ferrothorn on a Manaphy-weak team, there are good chances that it is running Power Whip to be able to beat Manaphy. This puts the Baton Pass user in an advantageous situation from the get-go, as they will be able to play around that and potentially guess Ferrothorn's coverage and switch-ins. This also puts incredible pressure on the player facing the Baton Pass team, because they know that the Baton Pass player should know that Ferrothorn most likely carries Power Whip. If the Baton Pass player switches out to a Fighting-type or something that can deal with Ferrothorn expecting it to switch into Manaphy, the other player can predict that and ultimately not go to Ferrothorn. But what if the Baton Pass player decides to Tail Glow instead of switching out? Then the other player is now against a speedy Manaphy with a Tail Glow buff and Ferrothorn has to switch into it and take 2 hits instead of 1. Skill can thus easily be taken out of the equation. Should that player have gone to Ferrothorn first regardless? Well, in that case, they would have lost momentum had the Baton Pass player chosen to double switch to another Pokémon. Why didn't Ferrothorn switch into Scolipede on the turn Manaphy was expected to receive the Speed boost? But what if another Pokémon was given that boost? What then? If Ferrothorn switches into Manaphy, the Baton Pass player has more freedom to switch out than his opponent getting caught in the unfavorable situation of switching Ferrothorn into a Fighting-type. Baton Pass might not lose right away because of a misprediction, while the team facing Baton Pass will get behind and have fewer chances, if any at all, to recover against a Baton Pass team constantly pressuring the opponent into potentially making another mistake. Can't Ferrothorn kill Manaphy anyway? Well, that is assuming that Manaphy will not switch out and already took sufficient prior damage to put it in range of Power Whip, which does not OHKO it. Manaphy might also be running a bulkier spread than usual, thus ensuring that it can somewhat comfortably survive Power Whip. And can't something else revenge kill Manaphy if Ferrothorn dies? That is assuming that you have something faster than +1 Manaphy that also happens to be able to do enough damage to kill it. Choice Band Dragonite's Extreme Speed does an impressive 50% at best to uninvested Manaphy. Shouldn't all teams have a secondary check to something as prevalent and strong as Manaphy? Possibly, yes, but it might now be slower than +1 Manaphy. Why is Manaphy being used as an example? Simply because everyone keeps talking about it pushing Baton Pass over the edge. Why don't people use stall (and more specifically Unaware Calm Mind Clefable) to beat a speedy and bulky Manaphy? Because they might not want to and, rightfully so, should have more than a few options to choose from. Why don't people start to specifically prepare for Baton Pass teams or at least the most commonly used Baton Pass Pokémon, which also happen to be good on their own? Because those Pokémon have fewer (most notably offensive) checks if they receive a Speed boost and, as such, their typical checks might no longer be able to properly deal with them. I mentioned Serperior for Manaphy earlier, but there are other offensive countermeasures, which can be popular or unpopular, such as Choice Scarf Magnezone, Raikou, and even Gengar. Should people start putting a Choice Scarf on Gengar because it is not a bad option against non-Baton Pass teams and can still better the team's match-up against Baton Pass teams? Should they also use 1, 2, or even 3 priority users to ensure that Speed boost recipients can be properly revenge killed? Doesn't Quiver Dance Volcarona freely set up against Speed Boost Scolipede and still outspeed all Baton Pass recipients? Having to run specific Pokémon, abilities, moves, or items to counter something as uncommon as Baton Pass is not exactly the sign of a healthy metagame. Doing so might (and most likely will) put you at a disadvantage against more common playstyles. Even then, you still won't get an automatic win against that one Baton Pass team that you might go against every once in a while. My opinion does not change when it comes to other inherently uncompetitive features. Do I think that having to run Shed Shell on a Pokémon that benefits from other options is uncompetitive? Yes, I do. Do I think that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive? Yes. Do I think that being able to set up on Magnezone once it has killed something makes this less uncompetitive? No, we were also able to use set-up moves against Dugtrio and Gothitelle. That did not make them less broken. Do I think that Magnezone trapping fewer Pokémon than Dugtrio and Gothitelle makes it less uncompetitive? Absolutely not! Smogon banned Gothita, Diglett, and Trapinch by banning Arena Trap as a whole. Those Pokémon trapped virtually nothing of relevance in comparison to Magnezone. Do I think that Serene Grace is uncompetitive? Yes, even though there are only 2 viable users of the move in PvP (Togekiss and Jirachi). Do I think that King's Rock is uncompetitive? Yes. Why hasn't Smogon done anything about any of that then? I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine. Cloyster's King's Rock set has been gaining traction. I know that many people on Smogon suggested banning King's Rock and Magnezone in the past. Usually, no action is taken unless something gains a lot of popularity and becomes a bigger issue in high elo and/or in tournaments. This happened with Baton Pass every single time until it was eventually banned altogether. Will players surprise their opponents by using Baton Pass in PRO's Showdown tours? Why not? It is certainly more efficient and less dysfunctional on Showdown. Why don't we wait until Substitute is coded or more powerful abusers are added or found? Essentially, this means that we should wait for Baton Pass' inherent uncompetitiveness to emerge in a blatantly undeniable fashion. Baton Pass will then still be the same; it will just be able to be used in conjunction with new tools that are undeniably problematic. Is it too soon to discuss banning Baton Pass? Well, not really, because administrators brought up this issue and, as such, it deserves to be discussed. Does banning the move have to be the inevitable outcome? No. We are not Smogon. PRO is not Showdown. Not only do we not have to ban Baton Pass now, but we also don't have to ban it later. Yes, we are using Showdown for many tours, but we are using a format that allows anything to be tailored according to PRO's rules! Is Baton Pass currently broken? No. Is it currently unhealthy? No. Can it become broken or unhealthy? Yes, in the future. Is it inherently uncompetitive? Absolutely. It can still be brought against players in ladder tournaments just to unsettle them in an attempt to unexpectedly get an easy/free win against them with a playstyle that they probably never specifically prepare for and should not have to prepare for in the first place. And no, good teams should not naturally be built to handle Baton Pass teams; they should be able to deal with relevant and more common playstyles instead. The issue here is that Baton Pass teams do not just constitute a cheese strategy. They are serious teams that are capable of consistently winning matches on their own, and not just because of the surprise factor. Let's maybe refocus on discussing banning Baton Pass from PRO's Showdown tournaments.

 

1. Baton Pass is not over used.

 

2. Do the people who use baton pass always easily win every game ?? Obviously not !!!

 

3. It's a team strategy. Ban baton pass = reduce the variety of PVP.

 

How can a move not be OU? Scolipede might not have sufficient usage to be OU, but it was UUBL in both ORAS and USUM, meaning it was also not OU by usage. That did not stop Smogon from banning Baton Pass. Something can have low usage and still be deemed ban-worthy. Shadow Tag Gothitelle was also UUBL in Gen 5... until it got banned. Do the people who use Baton Pass always win every game with ease? Of course not. Do those same people still auto-win some games because of favorable match-ups? Yes! Does Baton Pass allow teams to have more favorable match-ups than other playstyles? I believe so, mainly due to how unprepared teams are to face Baton Pass. Do I prepare for Baton Pass teams when I build teams? Never! Should I? Maybe, but I should not have to! How do you prepare for the combination of King's Rock Cloyster, Serene Grace Togekiss, and Serene Grace Jirachi? Can you even prepare for something uncompetitive that attempts to make the match as skill-less as possible in order to let luck and RNG decide its outcome? Is Baton Pass really skill-less? Baton Pass players can still play really well and make smart plays, but can also sometimes Baton Pass once to a Pokémon and automatically win from the get-go because Baton Pass teams can patch up one of the weaknesses of top-tier threats like Manaphy and Togekiss. Do Baton Pass teams manage to 6-0 frequently? No, but the fact that they can do so while also circumventing some of the Baton Pass recipients' usual checks proves that the move is uncompetitive by nature. Moreover, I certainly don't think that any playstyle or move should be kept for the sake of diversity just to preserve less than 5% of teams.

 

I want to clarify something. People talk about usage. If usage matters that much for people, then we should probably unban H.A Blaziken, Shadow Tag and Arena Trap. People can't see the forest for the trees. What about Speed and another Stat passing? Anyone thinks this was used a lot? We unfairly banned it then. I m very old in PRO Staff and the usage "argument"(I can't really count it as valid one) was always brought up by people who wanted something untouched.

 

If we followed Smogon's tiering policy before Baton Pass ever became an issue in PRO, why are we not following through on all aspects of Smogon's Baton Pass ban? Everyone knew all along that PRO had different mechanics than Showdown. The biggest, in this case, is the lack of Substitute. There are also other differences. Yet, I don't recall people disagreeing with the implementation of the complex clause that Smogon had in place (only having a single Baton Pass user not being able to Baton Pass speed and other stats). If we chose to copy Smogon's rules, why did we not follow through? Is it because we should have never tried to replicate what Smogon did and, instead, let PRO be its own independent game? A bit too late for that now.

 

When you play pvp, you can't rely on the success of a probability too much to do and that doesn't depend on you, it's the same as being against the competition itself. Togekiss is very strong when he flinches, but he's also mediocre when he misses and doesn't flinch, that's why relying on him as a pass stick is abusive, lacks consistency and knowledge.

 

Sorry to cherry-pick this part of your good post. Yes, Togekiss relies on flinches, but it also has a manageable speed tier. Would Togekiss become unbearable if it had 350 speed? I think so. And Baton Pass just happens to be able to patch up its poor speed, thus lowering the number of its usual checks, which would otherwise outspeed it and KO it. Togekiss also has respectable bulk, especially if it can run a more defensive set thanks to potentially receiving a Speed buff. This means that it can also set up Nasty Plot and accentuate the uncompetitive nature of Serene Grace flinches by doing a lot of damage and being harder to revenge kill. Being able to win games thanks to flinches is arguably uncompetitive, but something can usually outspeed Togekiss and force it out, thus perhaps recovering momentum and still having some sort of say in the outcome of the match. A speedy, bulky Togekiss can sometimes sweep an entire team if it relies on flinches while also being faster than everything else. Failing to flinch once will most likely not result in Togekiss' death, so it can just resume being uncompetitive afterward. The replay that you posted is very interesting because it shows how good players have adapted to the lack of Substitute. I am not saying that Scolipede does not need Substitute; I just think that running two coverage options instead of one actually worked in your favor in that specific match-up, although you also outplayed your opponent (particularly toward the end). I must, however, comment that, while coupling Baton Pass with Aurora Veil is an original idea, it remains an attempt to exacerbate Baton Pass' inherent uncompetitiveness by circumventing more of its recipients' weaknesses and abusing all available tools (in this case, Aurora Veil) to ensure Baton Pass' maximum efficiency. This is not to say that the combination of Baton Pass and Aurora Veil necessarily pushes Baton Pass over the edge. It is simply yet another attempt to break the playstyle (by merging it with another potentially problematic one). Eventually, someone might succeed in doing so.

 

Tl;dr: baton pass as a whole isnt a broken element of the game imo, i do however think speed passing is an unhealthy aspect that i wouldnt mind see it gone as it heavily promotes uncompetitive play, otherwise i feel like any other type of bp use should be encouraged.

 

I actually somewhat disagree with this. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Speed passing is the primary culprit as of right now. However, why should we further restrict an already complex enough clause? There have already been several restrictions and clauses on Smogon. Every single time, people thought that Baton Pass would never become a problem again. They were wrong! Someone somehow managed to abuse its inherently uncompetitive nature in spite of the increasingly complex bans. If we ban Speed passing, we should ban Baton Pass altogether instead of trying to preserve some niche, irrelevant strategies that no one currently uses and that someone might eventually figure out a way to abuse. What then? Are we going to move from clause #4 to clause #5? Are people ultimately going to ask for Baton Pass to be kept just for DryPass' sake? This is unprecedented! This is a move! We are trying to alter Baton Pass' inherent properties. Either keep it or remove it altogether. Let's not make the same mistake as Smogon by introducing even more unnecessary, complex bans.

 

 

Baton pass should be banned from early unless Ditto Imposter transform is coded to counter baton pass.

 

Ditto should never be anyone's primary countermeasure. Why? Because high Ditto usage is indicative of an unhealthy metagame, which people noticed in SS OU prior to the Dynamax ban.

 

 

So talonflame getting nerfed OR(and i say or because its not a combination and thats the thing people fail to understand,that one of the reasons mentioned is enough to get baton banned)magerna being introduced is enough to get the move banned.

 

Baton Pass is currently banned in ORAS OU. It was banned in retrospect because it was still deemed uncompetitive in spite of the Magearna-less and Necrozma-less Gen 6 OU environment and Gale Wings did not get nerfed until Gen 7.

 

I see people mentioning the thread that got Baton Pass banned in Gen 7 OU and when reading it, I wonder if they did. I wonder if they watched the replays linked. If you did, I assume you would've noticed a few common factors, namely Dugtrio with Arena Trap and Scolipede having access to Substitute + a properly working Baton Pass.

All that just means, that we're comparing a "complete" metagame with that of PRO's. We're comparing working mechanics to those of PRO. We're comparing Pokémon like Necrozma and Magearna with the likes of Togekiss and Manaphy. We're not accurately taking into consideration the lack of Substitute and the presence of Arena Trap Dugtrio. Maybe this is a good time to mention that the Dugtrio run on those teams was run with Memento in order to cripple the opponent and give Scolipede a more or less free Substitute.

 

Arena Trap was eventually banned and Baton Pass was never reconsidered for a re-test. The fact that Baton Pass was banned before Arena Trap speaks volumes about Baton Pass' uncompetitive nature. The council determined that the immediate issue was Baton Pass, not Arena Trap. The former was quick banned, while the latter was suspect tested a few months later. In ORAS OU, Baton Pass was banned after Arena Trap, which proves that it managed to remain an issue despite not being able to abuse Dugtrio any longer. The lack of Substitute definitely has to be taken into consideration, but I thought I would comment on the Arena Trap part. I actually agree with many points that you made. Serene Grace Togekiss is inherently uncompetitive, but so is Magnet Pull Magnezone. You may generate as much pressure as you want against them, they will do whatever they can to ensure that the outcome of the game is in RNG's hands. You can play extremely carefully against Magnezone, yet somehow still get trapped if you misplay or mispredict (or even if your opponent misplays and gets you to misplay as a result). You can also be patient and careful against Dugtrio and Gothitelle or run Shed Shell to prevent being trapped. Using Choice Scarf Togekiss has no justification other than wanting to outspeed and flinch down checks to slower variants. Even without Choice Scarf, Serene Grace Togekiss remains uncompetitive and, as such, will logically find itself being used on other uncompetitive playstyles (namely Baton Pass) in an attempt to harness their full uncompetitive potential.

 

I just want everyone to keep an open mind. I certainly could have said a lot about why Baton Pass can be kept for now if we really insist on delaying the inevitable, but others already made brilliant statements regarding that. Maybe I am wrong, but maybe you are, too. Let's all listen to opposing arguments instead of shrugging them off before giving them a chance. Then, we will have a healthy discussion instead of a heated debate.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Jorogumo