PVP Feedback - Baton Pass

[Iceflake]

The Reason People play baton pass is its consistency, it has a lot of options as for who is getting the Buffs after passing to deal with the current team they're facing. We shouldn't Ban baton pass outright, that would hurt mons such as Volbeat's Niches in pvp (tail glow Pranster), also mons that just got "discovered" such as baton pass to lapras. Effecting the Majority over the problematic mons. Such as Manaphy/togekiss/dnite/Volcorona. (less togekiss b/c its general very versatile) Rain teams would also hate to lose one of their most powerful wall breakers in Manaphy. Then that breaks up Weather wars power placements.

 

What im Suggesting is Maybe a Combo Ban, banning mons such as scolipede and X mon together. I chose Scolo since its one of the baton passer teams central mons. Basically a requirement to building a baton pass team. Choosing the combo mons to be banned together would be the hardest thing to decide. I say ban the few before the many. Things like this should take time to test and see how the metagame evolves overtime.

 

With Scolo banned with these mons new options appear, Less consistent options. Like the one that comes to mind off the bat is speed boost ninjask with focus sash or some Manual speed passing with agility tank Gliscor. Things that take at least a turn more to do before passing than scolo.

 

Sure scolo will be paired with other pokemon that can abuse its speed hax but that is when the community will always come in and suggest a fix

 

By no means am i someone who plays PRO pvp to ladder each season and by no means is this a 100% perfect fix to the problem its more like a patch that can be written over later when need be.

[0danobunaga]

Baton pass should be banned from early unless Ditto Imposter transform is coded to counter baton pass.

[Mexicannoob]

I agree with what @0danobunaga said 100000%

[Y0da]

There several thing people say about baton,some of them are correct and some of them are not.I've done this allready more than 10 times in ladder tournament discord and in officcial pro discord so its getting boring...but will do it one more time for the shake of arguement.

First of,baton ban was caused by two thing.The nerf of talonflame(which meant that no longer you can revenge killpokemon that got boosted from baton and then you have magerna(ive seen some people argueing about necrozma.its not as important as magerna but you can say that ).So,people that say that magerna is not in the game,should understand this:the ban of talonflame was a big reason but even if talon iventually didnt get nerfed,the fact that magerna was introducee in the game would cause athe baton pass ban anyways.So talonflame getting nerfed OR(and i say or because its not a combination and thats the thing people fail to understand,that one of the reasons mentioned is enough to get baton banned)magerna being introduced is enough to get the move banned.

Now,the most common respose on why baton is not banned(and im skipping the "ive used it so in my opinion its not banned cause its not a valid arguement nor something you can rely on) is the populatiry contest which is interesting.first people. were bringing up the fact that not many people use it(which again is not an arguement) but probbaly after some thought the arguement became "not many people find success with it.With all the respect towards community,most people dont find success with anything they use,and i know it sounds rude,doesnt look pretty but its the truth and the only way to make the best decision possible in topic like this is to be honest and objective.

Im also gonna point out,that the only pokemons that could pass speed ,which is the most common use in pro(its not the best but will get to that in a min),are scolipede and ninjask.People can get a few seconds and think how surprising it is that talonflame 1HKO both of these pokemon...all i can say its not a coinsidence nor a happy accident.

At last(i could be going for hours but its getting boring after doing it so many times),you guys fail to understand that breaking the meta with something thats supposed to be banned is not a progress for the game.Baton is totally fun to play and totally unfun to play against.It makes sense for people to be upset or mad or sad or whatever that it got temporary banned cause its really fun to use it but the game will never get any real progress if these basic things dont get fixed.People embrasse winning but what people should embrasse is competition and baton kills this unless your team is perfectly prepared to face it and those specific counter technic only counter baton.again,you are not gonna lose many games becasue of an unpreparation towards baton but the truth is,you should lose none...so personally i find it dismotivating losing to it.

Best of luck to the staff team on the final decision.Peace.

[Gdarch]

It's not the only one, but it's certainly the one people use in more than 90% of the cases when running Baton Pass teams. As such, taunt is no option to counter it whatsoever, bar the rare and niche prankster users that have access to it.

 

 

The evasiveness drop Defog causes to the pokemon carrying Baton Pass, won't hinder it from baton passing. Not even in PRO, where we know how the move is bugged in correlation with Intimidate. Next time make sure to check if your arguments are valid, before involving yourself into a discussion.

 

 

 

[ATTACH type=full" alt="Snimka zaslona (88).png]141386[/ATTACH][ATTACH type=full" alt="Snimka zaslona (89).png]141387[/ATTACH]

 

On the screens there are the ladder results from June 2019 and November 2019. Both from the SIlver server respectively. I'd advise you to check out rank 10 on the first screen and rank 18 on the second. Again, next time before you say something, make sure it's correct.

 

While I don't necessarily think Baton Pass needs to be banned from the ranked PVP in PRO (due to the properly working mechanics, it definitely should from the ladder tour tho), I will always be against it as long as the people supporting it want to abuse the already broken Manaphy and the hax reliant bulky Togekiss, all under the banner of creativity and diversity.

 

I can’t agree more than that !!!

[Belzebel]

I think honestly you sold the point on number one because that is a very good reason but there is a lot of holes with the rest once it is fixed honestly.

 

2) We only have manaphy at the moment so I am not to sure how this is relevant as Showdown did not ban fully baton pass as a clause until gen7 even if controversial.

 

3) Blaziken is busted because self abusing speed boost is nuts on a good pokemon, you do not see nincanda being banned for a good reason. Yes baton passing speed boost can be powerful, so can SD on bisharp or other pokemon, counters do exist and players should have to be able to play around this.

 

4) Trick Room in general is not weak to an entire meta its weak to particularly powerful counter like taunt, protect, and knock off (without z-crystals, mega stones, or abundant sources of colbur berries). All of these are frequently common and are the reason why the archetype suffers. I have beaten plenty of meta teams when they do not have it with my trick room.

 

5) Manaphy is not banned because it never was banned when weather was not permanent. Manaphy is strong agreed but so are plenty of other pokemon in this meta.

 

6) This is a repeat of an earlier point and mons do have counters, lati literally hard loses to Muk, Togekiss to Bisharp, and etc.

 

7) Sun counter or not is whatever just here like you to talk about it I do not play the archetype much I do not really care what happens to it but I would rather push diversity than the opposite until the game can get more regular fixes to PvP content.

I have used trick room too, and all the things you mentioned to counter it are meta lol. Use trick room just to counter baton pass is like shooting your own foot. It doesn't matter if you never lost a game with trick room. We are not discussing how better you are than the other players. In discussions like this, you should assume everyone would have the same level of pvp experience and skill. In overall, in PRO, the win ratio with trick room is very low. Im sure @Qeight can show us since he is an expert in usage data for some reason. Im sure if people in PRO realised how OP baton pass is, they would be spamming it. It's sad that this discussion brought so much attention to it and now if its not getting banned, people will spam it, have an insane win ratio and then we gonna have this discussion again.

 

Also, Manaphy was never banned, but it was Uber until gen 6. They made it OU when megas and Z moves were out, because then we had things to actually counter it. PRO is nothing like Showdown, you need to know how to adapt it. We don't have anything to properly counter Manaphy. Even a Sun team that was supposed to be able to deal with it would have to sacrifice the sun setter and have Manaphy low enough so it can KO it with Giga Drain or Energy Ball. Ofc, Im talking about Manaphy with Rain Dance. And if it has baton pass, then not even sun abusers or Serperior, Magnezone or Jolteon would be able to beat it.

[Yellovv]

I will make this very simple as you can easily search for the reason why baton pass got banned on showdown before.

- Batonpassing speed is not broken, it's way far from being broken but it's give you potential on winning a game right from team preview if played by skillful players, low risk high reward overall. If your team doesn't have answer for scolipede and its friends, you instant lose the game but ofc RNG can happen, it's pokemon game. This is the same reason why gothitelle got banned in PRO, using that poke is more likely a 5v6 game but when its trapped some good things, this poke go wild, which really annoying to deal with.

- So if your team able to easy win against baton pass team, it doesn't prove this team is acceptable. Winning a game right from the start is what pokemon's competitive always try to avoid.

it should stay banned

Edited May 3, 2020 by Yellovv

[Mcschitter]

I have used trick room too, and all the things you mentioned to counter it are meta lol. Use trick room just to counter baton pass is like shooting your own foot. It doesn't matter if you never lost a game with trick room. We are not discussing how better you are than the other players. In discussions like this, you should assume everyone would have the same level of pvp experience and skill. In overall, in PRO, the win ratio with trick room is very low. Im sure @Qeight can show us since he is an expert in usage data for some reason. Im sure if people in PRO realised how OP baton pass is, they would be spamming it. It's sad that this discussion brought so much attention to it and now if its not getting banned, people will spam it, have an insane win ratio and then we gonna have this discussion again.

 

Also, Manaphy was never banned, but it was Uber until gen 6. They made it OU when megas and Z moves were out, because then we had things to actually counter it. PRO is nothing like Showdown, you need to know how to adapt it. We don't have anything to properly counter Manaphy. Even a Sun team that was supposed to be able to deal with it would have to sacrifice the sun setter and have Manaphy low enough so it can KO it with Giga Drain or Energy Ball. Ofc, Im talking about Manaphy with Rain Dance. And if it has baton pass, then not even sun abusers or Serperior, Magnezone or Jolteon would be able to beat it.

 

 

I think you did not understand some of the things said in my reply.

 

I said trick room does suffer because of the common moves in the meta but the archetype is not weak to particular teams it is weak to moves. I am going to say that skill comes from team building as well, I can guarantee that trick room is trash because people do not run the good pokemon for it. How many people even own Uxie which is basically trolling not to have on the team. When I see dusclops trick room, I do not even count that as playing a real trick room team. That is just someone having fun and none of the players understand how to use it.

 

That said, people knowing something is OP is meaningless. I think I get asked from guildees at least 5 times a day for a good team and I keep saying use zapdos and heatran they are stupid strong. They have a higher requirement and cost for sure but Greninja is similar in hunting to Scolipede and is also in contention for one of the most under utilized pokemon in the game for how absurdly strong it is even with battle bond missing.

 

Manaphy was unbanned in gen6 is the exact same thing that I said. It was unbanned the moment the new generation introduced limited weather durations. Megas may be a contributing factor if weather was still unlimited then, but that is just extra incentive and might mean nothing. Gen6 had no zmoves by the way that is the following generation so that has no application to this.

 

Before I name the long list of manaphy counters and checks I think we should be careful to say PRO is nothing like showdown and then try to follow in their footsteps for arguments made for showdown. Seems like a hypocritical point and should be avoided, we cannot have it both ways.

 

Manaphy is countered by many pokemon and although you can tech for certain sets, it is not perfect by any means:

Checks:

-AV Amoongus

-Tangrowth (depending on leaf storms tech you might just even be a hard answer)

-Gastrodon

-Ferrothorn (hard cripples but you can be RNG'ed)

-AV tentacruel (can haze, speed tie at max speed, or it does not matter psychic cannot kill except for a roll at +6)

-AV Magnezone (magnet pull can chance a KO and/or paralyze with tbolt and analytic flat out kills. You can additionally slow volt switch to priority if you are magnet pull and feel like not chancing)

-Focus sashers (can soften the pokemon for the finisher)

 

Hard Answers:

-Mantine which doubles as the rain answer too and can run defog support (Ice beam can cheese you but you can easily cripple its boosts and toxic it, if someone has rain dance, rest, setup, and ice beam then I guess they deserve to win lol)

-Chansey (rain dance means they drop 2 move slots for the rest so if you cannot answer it then you deserve the lost imo)

-Sap Sipper Azumarill (if they do not have psychic and still has toxic anyways if you are playing the better set since it beats rotom pretty well)

*run both Azu and Chansey if you really want to beat it that badly both pokemon are plenty good in this meta (sap sipper azu has a plethora of threats if you look into it)

 

If you are going to say that they can just cripple you and switch out, the amount of setup required and the fact that the premiere switcher in Scolipede is weak to rocks means that you absolutely can widdle them down. The archetype can be strong but it has counter play which is more than I can say when weather had extra turns in the game and etc. A lot of the things listed do end up dying often to deal with this pokemon, but that is exactly how you deal with a threat that has succesfully setup. Dragonite is a prime example of this style of dealing with a threat.

[Zytrax]

I dont think BP is the problem that makes pro pvp boring and unfair. Facing Teams with 3 out of these pokemon: heatran, manaphy, dnight, ferro, rotom, chansey, conk, garchomp makes pvp super boring. Just keep baton pass but implement a ban System. When entering q, u should be able to ban 1-2 pokemon u dont want to face. It would take longer q times but to me thats worth it. And if u dont like bp just ban scolipede.

[Jughead]

I think if showdown and smogon have the move banned is for a reason also in pro is kinda diferent meta even more hard to deal with some bugs etc I mean I dont care because if u have good builded team u can deal with a team bases on baton pass but if there some bugs that can change game so I think should be banned for now and after right coded lets talk about it again