Ban ASH GRENINJA in pvp

[Refandra]

So many poke op banned like aegislash,didnt u guys worry? for someone who buy greninja bb with very expensive price. Greninja not so op,many counter like ferro, chansey, azumarill and other

[Norex]

49 minutes ago, Refandra said:

So many poke op banned like aegislash,didnt u guys worry? for someone who buy greninja bb with very expensive price. Greninja not so op,many counter like ferro, chansey, azumarill and other

I wont bring up the same arguments again, as many people already made very good posts already.

I just want to say that the fact people bought/hunted one should never be an argument for not banning it. The decision has to be independent of facts like that. People should look at the topic more open-minded, ignoring the fact they used money/time to get a BB Greninja.

[0danobunaga]

https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/161750-an-unhealthy-battle-bond-the-ash-greninja-case/ you guys can refer this

Edited October 12, 2020 by 0danobunaga

[Keabu]

5 hours ago, Refandra said:

So many poke op banned like aegislash,didnt u guys worry? for someone who buy greninja bb with very expensive price. Greninja not so op,many counter like ferro, chansey, azumarill and other

 

So they shouldn't ban it just because you bought one for a lot of pokedollars ?

 

^ this thread in a nutshell

Edited October 12, 2020 by Keabu

[Refandra]

35 minutes ago, Keabu said:

 

So they shouldn't ban it just because you bought one for a lot of pokedollars ?

 

^ this thread in a nutshell

Nope i dont have it,but my friend have it he bought 10m

[Soggyteabag]

There are 13 pages of useless back and forth.

 

Bottom line is: Ash-Greninja is broken. 

 

Either we ban it, or everyone starts abusing it on the ladder, causing mayhem.

 

Easy-to-understand example:

As soon as you start using UNVIABLE mons that would otherwise be useless to wall a powerful poke, you know it is busted.

 

Exhibition A: 

DISCLAIMER I AM NOT TAKING AN STANCE ON THE SMOGON TIERING SYSTEM AND IF IT SHOULD BE FOLLOWED, IT IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE

 

One huge reason why dracovish was banned from gen8ou is cause it made unviable pokemon and sets like Seismitoad (Water absorb and Stormdrain)  good, simply cause it walled it. IMO If you have to dedicate an entire unviable pokemon to specifically beating a broken mon that has little counterplay, then it is broken. 

tl;dr

 

As soon as people say, "Oh Ash Gren isn't good cause calm azu walls it" you know that these sets are hot garbage, and the only reason that you would even consider running it is to have a check dedicated to beating Ash gren. If ash gren never existed, you would have no friken reason to run these sets. (Or pokemon)
 

 

ALSO, WHAT DO THE MODS THINK?

I'd like to have some input by some competent mods who understand the importance of a balanced pvp meta.

 

O YEAH, +1 to everything that aggs said, he beat me to it.

 

Sincerely,

-Teabag

Edited October 12, 2020 by SoggyTeaBag

[Eric66]

On 10/12/2020 at 2:42 AM, Aggs said:

I dont think you understand where I'm coming from. Bottom line, I will abuse this Mon until it's banned, and I'll adapt alright. I guess i tried giving an explanaton on why, but you still don't understand. I can't force you to learn, and if you don't want to learn, be my guest. I gave you a whole book to read, and you read the first line, congrats. Come back when you have something constructive to say.

You dont understand it either. The reason of banning Greninja is too op is nonsense, a 5 yo kid could find out a better reason. There are mons that can check it/counter it, Specially if its locked to a move due to specs. If you abuse it currently and you keep winning, why do you want to ban it? Its not that op. Just check a storm drain poke like Gastrodon, laughs at it. Gave me a whole book? It was nice, I understood it very well, but none of them makes sense since its not impossible to kill. Protean Greninja is far harder to kill, since while you can kill Ash-Greninja with a Mach Punch, until using Shadow Sneak with  Protean Greninja, makes it far harder to kill. But thats just my point and be my guest to continue this without any offense. 

[Leo]

19 hours ago, SoggyTeaBag said:

tl;dr

 

As soon as people say, "Oh Ash Gren isn't good cause calm azu walls it" you know that these sets are hot garbage, and the only reason that you would even consider running it is to have a check dedicated to beating Ash gren. If ash gren never existed, you would have no friken reason to run these sets. (Or pokemon)

Calm H.A. Azu has been used in PRO as an excellent counter to Serp thou, so its uses are not that exclusive.

Anw, it remains true that Ash Gren is super hard to check atm. People here and there have been saying "Oh, just mach punch/vacuum wave it", but Ash Gren is a late game cleaner and will seal the game once your Conk/Luca got the slightest of chipped damage to be 1hko-ed by Water Shuriken, so it's kinda funny for to see the Mach Punch argument. Extreme Speed, esp. from a Banded Poke, is a legitimate check thou.

So, it's a shame, but +1 to a temp ban to Ash-Gren until more of its checks are released. Kudos to the game makers for releasing this awesome mon thou, just not quite at the right time.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Kuto

[Dopxmine]

9 hours ago, Eric66 said:

You dont understand it either. The reason of banning Greninja is too op is nonsense, a 5 yo kid could find out a better reason. There are mons that can check it/counter it, Specially if its locked to a move due to specs. If you abuse it currently and you keep winning, why do you want to ban it? Its not that op. Just check a storm drain poke like Gastrodon, laughs at it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

i don't see where it comes in on ash gren and "laughs at it". maybe you're more familiar with the sub 200 rating range, where people don't switch out but a good player will never leave a pokemon as influential as ash gren in on something that could ohko it with priority.

 

9 hours ago, Eric66 said:

since while you can kill Ash-Greninja with a Mach Punch,

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr in Rain: 354-423 (100.8 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

9 hours ago, Eric66 said:

If you abuse it currently and you keep winning, why do you want to ban it? Its not that op.

 

do you know what op means? this is the exact definition of a pokemon that is overpowered and needs to be banned, although, temporarily in my opinion until gen 7 comes out. 

as a side note: there is no such thing as "not that op". either it's op or it's not. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Dopxmine

[Aggs]

Bold + Italics sentences are my responses.
 

10 hours ago, Eric66 said:

You dont understand it either.

Ah yes, and I suppose your Goodra with absolutely 0 recovery move can survive in a game forever, and totally not be abused by entry hazards. The fact that you make it out to be the end-all-be-all for SPATK moves is already an indicator that the information I provided was a wasted effort. 

The reason of banning Greninja is too op is nonsense, a 5 yo kid could find out a better reason.

Sure, saying it alone without any evidence to back it up may be nonsense, cause at that point it's a cry for change. But as far as I know, you have been doing the same thing, but on the other side of the discussion. So please, if you will, give me a rundown of information that isn't:

Specific Scenarios hoping that your opponent decides to throw it away for no reason.
Very shaky Pokemon that are not guaranteed to wall forever.
0 Game Plan, Always a peferct scenario.
"It laughs at it lol"

I'll respect your opinion if you give me actual constructive, laid out reasoning as to why you think BB Gren shouldn't be banned, but so far you're standing on paper waiting to collapse.

There are mons that can check it/counter it, Specially if its locked to a move due to specs.

Based on my definitions of a check/counter, can you give me a defined list please? Include calcs as well of both Base From and Ash, cause I'm sure you'll be surprised. 

If you abuse it currently and you keep winning, why do you want to ban it?

I am not using my brain while using this Mon, but if there a popular vote of requirements fufilled, such as Ladder in X months that decides it's not banworthy, you'll see me on the ladder with BB-Gren. It's just as you say, I abuse it currently and I keep winning. Weird, huh?

 Just check a storm drain poke like Gastrodon, laughs at it.

Dopxmine already gave a calc. Think about it for a second. You're SPDEF wall takes minimum 42% from a neutral special attack. That is as Ash, but you're also ignoring any possibility of hazards, which more often than not will be up. Every little bit counts, and Gastro will be one double away from dying to BB-Gren, so I hope you enjoy your mon that "laughs" at it falls over.

Gave me a whole book? It was nice, I understood it very well, but none of them makes sense since its not impossible to kill.

Ok, I just had an aneurysm reading this. "I understood it very well, but none of them makes sense." You're assuming that every Greninja will stay in on you and make your dreams come true. Welcome to the real world, where no one cares and will keep their wincon alive.

Protean Greninja is far harder to kill, since while you can kill Ash-Greninja with a Mach Punch, until using Shadow Sneak with  Protean Greninja, makes it far harder to kill.

Number 1, hello my name is Water Shuriken and you're conk is at 75% after Helmet, Rough Skin, and Burn? My conk now. 
Number 2, also once again, assuming your dreams will come true, when not every Ash-Gren will be challenged enough to stay in.
Number 3, Shadow Sneak is not a guaranteed punish, is super high-risk, and spells the end of Greninja if you throw it out willy-nilly.

But thats just my point and be my guest to continue this without any offense. 

Oh, I'm not offended in any way. After my first post, it's entertainment at this point.