An unhealthy Battle Bond: The Ash-Greninja case

[Jorogumo]

An unhealthy Battle Bond: The Ash-Greninja case

The other thread has quickly gone downhill and I am late to the party, so I decided to make a new thread instead, in hopes of getting more of you to notice this post and maybe read it. From what I have read, I can tell that some people are really underselling Ash-Greninja’s capabilities due to the presence of a few so-called counters and the fact that it does not activate Battle Bond without getting a kill. A Pokémon can still be ban-worthy even if it has checks and counters.

 

Ash-Greninja was still extremely potent in SM/USUM OU. It was even ranked in S-tier for a while, until the final update before the end of USUM OU caused it to drop to A+. Keep in mind that this was in a metagame that was overprepared for it. A quick look at the SM OU Viability Ranking Thread, the USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread, and the most recent USUM OU Viability Rankings can show us the impact that Ash-Greninja has had on the metagame while simultaneously maintaining an A+ (or higher) ranking throughout Gen 7 OU. Some of the most viable Pokémon in SM/USUM OU are able to put in work against it. For example, Toxapex stops it and can at least put down Toxic Spikes to punish it for using Spikes. Magearna can check it and either retaliate with a powerful hit or gain momentum with Volt Switch, although it cannot endlessly switch into it due to the lack of reliable recovery. Ferrothorn can also check it relatively well and trade Spikes with it, but it does not have reliable recovery, either. Faster threats, like Tapu Koko, can force it out before it activates Battle Bond. There are other countermeasures, like Tapu Lele’s Psychic Surge, which summons Psychic Terrain and effectively suspends Ash-Greninja’s Water Shuriken. While this might seem minor at first glance, it can be game-changing, potentially preventing Ash-Greninja from using its powerful priority move against a naturally faster threat or Choice Scarf user.

 

I am not going to go through the entire viability list because it pertains to Smogon; however, it is important to understand the level of centralization caused by Ash-Greninja in Gen 7 OU. If you check some of the analyses from that metagame, you will find that many Pokémon were specifically EV’d to take on Ash-Greninja. Ferrothorn ran a heavily specially defensive spread with 252 HP EVs and 232 Special Defense EVs to ensure not getting 3HKO’d by Choice Specs Greninja’s Dark Pulse at full HP. Amoonguss also ran specially defensive sets, carrying either Black Sludge or even Assault Vest, with sufficient HP and Special Defense to check Ash-Greninja. A Calm nature was used in conjunction with 248 HP EVs and 204 Special Defense EVs to avoid the 2HKO from Choice Specs Ash-Greninja’s Dark Pulse. The Assault Vest set was able to check Ash-Greninja better, but the loss of Spore is suboptimal. Mantine maintained an OU niche by being able to survive the 2HKO from Choice Specs Ash-Greninja’s Dark Pulse if Stealth Rock is on the field. Granted, it was a good check to other threats, such as Volcarona, but it would have even less of a niche/purpose in OU if it did not check Ash-Greninja. Mega Venusaur exclusively ran 68 Special Defense EVs to survive two Dark Pulses from Choice Specs Greninja after Stealth Rock and prevent it from activating Battle Bond. Ash-Greninja forced some Pokémon to run more specially defensive spreads to remain viable; it made a few others viable in OU because they could check it; it hurt the viability of many Pokémon that proved unable to adapt to its presence. This is not surprising, as this is what a top-tier threat does. It was manageable, but it was still one of the best Pokémon throughout all of Gen 7 OU and the level of centralization that it generated clearly shows. There were definitely some gatekeepers, like Magearna and Toxapex, that kept several top-tier threats in check. Without those Pokémon, who knows what USUM OU would look like today?

 

Having said that, PRO is not Showdown. We do not have to ban something for the sole reason that it is/was banned on Pokémon Showdown. Conversely, we do not have to keep something just because it is/was not banned there. Hopefully, PRO can have its own PvP Council and Suspect Test Process at some point. You can read this article to learn more about the former and this one to see how Suspect Tests started.

 

So, why should Ash-Greninja be banned in PRO?

 

1. We lack sufficient offensive counterplay to Ash-Greninja. Ash-Greninja sports an incredible 399 speed tier, which outpaces the entire (viable) metagame. Even pre-Battle Bond transformation, it is still really fast, boasting 377 speed. While it is slower than Weavile, pre-Battle Bond Greninja does not get Pursuit-trapped as easily as its Protean counterpart, thanks to maintaining its Dark typing, thus effectively removing one of the few ways of limiting it on an offensive level. Either way, you cannot just let Battle Bond Greninja get a kill to revenge kill it with Weavile, since Ash-Greninja outspeeds it. Even if we had everything that Gen 7 OU had, not many (viable) Pokémon would be naturally faster, but we would, at the very least, have more Megas: Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, Mega Alakazam, Mega Aerodactyl, etc. You can take a look at the USM OU Speed Tiers and the newer version of that list. Offensively speaking, we would also be able to take advantage of Terrain boosts (e.g., Psychic Terrain to block Water Shuriken, Grassy Terrain for passive recovery…) and Pokémon that benefit from Terrains in general (e.g., Unburden Hawlucha with Electric/Grassy/Psychic Seed). Even small things like Tapu Koko outspeeding Greninja before its Battle Bond transformation matter because they can add up. Moreover, we would have more options for Choice Scarf users, like Keldeo, Kartana, and whatnot, as well as more Pokémon with strong priority moves, such as Mega Pinsir. As of right now, many of the viable Choice Scarf users, most notably Landorus-T, get destroyed by a Choice Specs-boosted Water Shuriken. Ash-Greninja does resist common priority moves, too, namely Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch, and Aqua Jet. I would also like to add something about the Mach Punch myth, that is, the assumption that Ash-Greninja will merrily let itself die to Mach Punch. If the priority users that are able to KO it take some chip, they run the risk of dying to a Choice Specs-boosted Water Shuriken. If you happen to let Battle Bond Greninja get a kill, you are potentially looking at something as absurd as this in rain: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr in Rain: 354-423 (100.8 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO. That is a guaranteed OHKO on Conkeldurr with a neutral priority move. Finally, the Pokémon that would be able to offensively check Battle Bond Greninja by switching into it and threatening to KO it are always scarce, but this is further exacerbated in PRO, since there are still a few missing pieces (e.g., Magearna, Keldeo, Tapu Bulu, Primarina…). Running a specially defensive Breloom that can get obliterated on the switch by a rain-boosted, Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump is not acceptable. The same goes for Assault Vest Azumarill, Black Sludge Toxicroak, Roost Hydreigon, specially defensive Kommo-o, any bulky Mega Gyarados, etc. This hurts the offensive efficiency of these Pokémon and does not even help them against unusual coverage moves or Protean Greninja. Chansey offense is also not the answer, because offensive teams optimally need to keep up momentum and pressure. Overall, even in an ideal setup, we would need as many offensive countermeasures as possible. We simply do not have sufficient offensive counterplay to Ash-Greninja, that is, a satisfactory amount of naturally faster Pokémon, Choice Scarf users, Priority users, and offensive Pokémon able to switch into it at least once.

 

2. Ash-Greninja can easily take advantage of its defensive switch-ins or just wear them down over time. Some of Ash-Greninja’s defensive checks cannot survive if Dark Pulse flinches them once (e.g., Gastrodon, Mantine…), while those with no reliable recovery cannot outheal the damage (e.g., Leech Seed Protect Ferrothorn) or heal up forever (e.g., Synthesis Mega Venusaur). Prior to activating Battle Bond, Greninja sometimes only needs minimal chip or support (in the form of Stealth Rock and Spikes) to achieve 2HKOs on would-be defensive checks. In fact, Greninja can set up hazards on the defensive switch-ins that it forces, due to them being Spikes bait most of the time. Many of Ash-Greninja’s most reliable defensive checks are forced to recover whenever they switch into one of its attacks, to ensure that they can check it throughout the match, thus being forced into a passive loophole that can easily be taken advantage of. In the end, Ash-Greninja can still make progress against these defensive countermeasures, either by setting up Spikes and wearing down the opposition or by softening up said Pokémon and allowing one of its teammates to take advantage of them. We still lack some key defensive checks that are able to reset Ash-Greninja’s progress (e.g., Tapu Fini can semi-reliably switch into Ash-Greninja and use Defog to remove Spikes). Furthermore, running a passive Pokémon like Chansey on offensive builds – or builds that suffer from momentum loss – is something that Ash-Greninja and its teammates always appreciate and effectively capitalize on. Aside from its standard STAB moves, Ash-Greninja can run viable coverage options. For example, pre-Battle Bond Ice Beam has a chance to 2HKO Assault Vest Tangrowth. The same applies to Amoonguss unless it carries an Assault Vest. Hazards turn these rolls into guaranteed KOs. Overall, while we do have some defensive countermeasures to Ash-Greninja, they are not satisfactory enough, because they do not prevent it from making steady progress throughout the match.

 

3. As a result, Ash-Greninja can slowly but steadily make consistent progress throughout the match, either until it is able to activate Battle Bond and sweep on its own or until it has sufficiently softened up the opposing team for one of its teammates. It is also hard to undo Ash-Greninja’s progress in PRO due to the nature of the (limited) aforementioned offensive and defensive counterplay. The combination of Ash-Greninja’s speed, its access to Water Shuriken, and its sheer power makes it an extremely punishing Pokémon if it ever manages to activate Battle Bond. In fact, if Ash-Greninja gets ahead, it makes comebacks exceedingly difficult for many teams. It is both good at gaining an advantage and keeping it or furthering it, due to the nature of its toolkit and the progress-making advantages that naturally come with it.

 

4. Ash-Greninja promotes passive (counter)play. It is true that the best way to handle Ash-Greninja is preventing it from activating Battle Bond in the first place. However, this goes both ways, as it heavily pressures the opponent into never allowing it to get a kill. This effectively means that its checks – some of which lack reliable recovery – are under extreme pressure to stay alive. The opponent can also be forced to keep an otherwise useless Pokémon alive even if it is at low HP, just for the sake of preventing Ash-Greninja from activating its Battle Bond, thus allowing it to dent the whole team instead. Given the lack of offensive countermeasures in PRO, Ash-Greninja can effectively force passivity due to the constant threat of a Battle Bond transformation and that of a subsequent sweep. This shows both throughout a match and in the teambuilder, where its strain, in conjunction with the limited counterplay, can force you to run Chansey, Protect Ferrothorn, and even some otherwise unenviable – not necessarily unviable – Pokémon, such as Mantine, or some unviable Pokémon, like Poliwrath. In a way, the mere presence of Ash-Greninja dictates a specific risk/reward scenario that forces the opponent to think twice about making risky plays. As a result, Ash-Greninja becomes really good at forcing passive patterns that can be capitalized on or taken advantage of with low-risk double switches. For example, you can gauge your opponent’s reaction once or twice to accustom them to a specific behavior before unexpectedly breaking the pattern (e.g., using Dark Pulse on the Chansey switch-in, switching out, using Dark Pulse on another Chansey switch-in, switching out again, then switching to something that can beat Chansey or take advantage of it instead of using Dark Pulse a third time). This is, of course, not exclusive to Ash-Greninja; however, it is further enhanced by the favorable risk/reward situation that it creates, the limited counterplay currently available in PRO, the necessity to run more than 1 answer for it, and the fact that it requires little to no team support to break through its so-called checks.

 

5. After activating Battle Bond, Ash-Greninja gets access to one of the most powerful priority moves in the game in Water Shuriken. Being only resisted by 3 types in Water, Grass, and Dragon (which are all hit by Dark Pulse), Water Shuriken is a devastating priority move, further boosted by Ash-Greninja’s incredible 153 base Special Attack. It is even more powerful in rain (cf. the earlier calculation against Conkeldurr at full HP) but does not need it to deal an obscene amount of damage to neutral targets. No one wants to read a wall of calculations, so let me just put things into perspective to give you a good representation of how powerful Ash-Greninja’s Choice Specs-boosted Water Shuriken is. After Stealth Rock, Ash-Greninja has a chance to OHKO Bisharp (252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 225-264 (83 - 97.4%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and Gengar (252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 210-252 (80.1 - 96.1%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) with a neutral priority Water move outside of rain. Offensive teams are most pressured into making sure that they are always out of range of a Water Shuriken sweep, because they have the hardest time preventing Greninja from activating Battle Bond. Ash-Greninja can use its strong priority move to either revenge kill somewhat healthy Pokémon with relative ease or clean up late game, as if having 399 speed in conjunction with those offensive stats in PRO’s current meta was not already enough!

 

6. Ash-Greninja forms unhealthy cores with other Pokémon and enables them by softening up their common switch-ins. These include (but are not limited to) Pokémon that appreciate hazards (e.g., Aegislash), Pokémon that can deter their removal (e.g., Defiant users like Bisharp and Thundurus), Pokémon that can beat Ash-Greninja’s usual checks (e.g., Mega Gallade, Breloom…), Pokémon that share checks with it and can overwhelm them with its help (e.g., Heatran, Gengar, Tornadus-T…), and even Pokémon that can bait in Ash-Greninja’s checks and cripple them (e.g., Knock Off Thundurus, Solar Beam Heatran…).

 

7. Ash-Greninja has access to Spikes, a move with limited distribution, which can immensely help it (and its teammates) in achieving important KOs. Spikes also allow Ash-Greninja to capitalize on the many switches that it forces to punish passive plays. In general, setting up even 1 layer of Spikes can go a long way.

 

8. The presence of Ash-Greninja makes Protean Greninja even better. Protean Greninja is actually able to beat many of the Pokémon commonly run to check Ash-Greninja. For example, it can surprise Ferrothorn with HP Fire, Gastrodon with HP Grass or Grass Knot, Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss with Extrasensory, Assault Vest Azumarill and Assault Vest Tangrowth with Gunk Shot, etc. More concretely, if you are running something like specially defensive Ferrothorn to better your match-up against Ash-Greninja, you are suboptimally equipped to handle Low Kick Protean Greninja. If you overprepare for Ash-Greninja, you leave yourself more vulnerable to Protean Greninja.

 

9. Ash-Greninja does not have to exclusively run a single set to be as efficient as possible in PRO’s metagame. Even in Gen 7 OU, some people used Waterium Z as a one-time nuke to a would-be Ash-Greninja check like Magearna, while also retaining the ability to switch moves. The Choice Specs set is the best because Ash-Greninja does not really need anything other than 2 STAB moves, a priority move, and either Spikes or extra coverage (e.g., Ice Beam), depending on the rest of the team. No matter what, the Choice Specs set is always effective at what it does, but expecting the same moves every single time can occasionally be a costly mistake. However, in PRO, we do not have the luxury to scout for uncommon or unusual options anyway.

 

10. Unlike what many people claim, Greninja is not extremely weak before activating Battle Bond. With Stealth Rock and just 1 layer on Spikes, it has a chance to 2HKO Blissey in rain: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Rain: 264-312 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery. Granted, Blissey will almost always be inferior to Chansey, at least until Heavy-Duty Boots become a thing (if they ever do). To put things into perspective, pre-Battle Bond Greninja has 103 base Special Attack and Kingdra has 95 base Special Attack. Both Pokémon typically run Choice Specs.

 

11. While Ash-Greninja is, by no means, a bulky Pokémon, we cannot pretend that it is frail to the point of dying to any attack in existence. Most of the time, you will need to attack it twice to kill it. It can survive +2 Sucker Punch from Adamant Life Orb Bisharp (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 218-257 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Extreme Speed from Choice Band Dragonite (252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 203-239 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), +6 Aqua Jet from Belly Drum Azumarill (+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 219-258 (76.8 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), U-turn from Choice Scarf Landorus-T (252 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 228-270 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Hydro Pump from Choice Specs Kingdra in the rain (252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja in Rain: 237-279 (83.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and the list goes on.

 

12. Ash-Greninja is overcentralizing to an unhealthy extent. It forces you to run a very limited pool of Pokémon that are able to check it. This point will prove truer if Ash-Greninja ends up not being banned, thus inevitably causing an unhealthy amount of overcentralization around Pokémon that it does not even necessarily lose to (cf. points 1 and 2).

 

13. The existence of Ash-Greninja hurts the viability of multiple playstyles. This is another point that would prove truer in the long term. Ash-Greninja, similarly to Protean Greninja, dismantles offensive builds. Over time, the metagame was able to (healthily or unhealthily) adapt to the latter; however, it is currently unable to deal with the former. Ash-Greninja is weak to fewer priority moves than Protean Greninja, since its typing always remains the same. Unlike its Protean counterpart, Ash-Greninja has 399 speed, which allows it to outpace Weavile. Moreover, as a Dark type, it is less prone to Pursuit trap. Unlike Protean Greninja, Ash-Greninja can make good use of Water Shuriken to circumvent some of its would-be revenge killers with minimal chip. It also forces offensive teams to modify their builds accordingly. For example, after a Dragon Dance, Dragonite can only outspeed Ash-Greninja with a Jolly nature while being unable to OHKO it with +1 Extreme Speed with an Adamant nature. A Jolly nature effectively entails a noticeable drop in power, which offensive teams require a lot. While Ash-Greninja can fit on balanced and bulky offensive builds, those still have a hard time dealing with it in general due to its ability to wear down or muscle through standard defensive backbones, while not caring about their offensive cores as much. Stall is able to handle most Ash-Greninja sets by somewhat reliably preventing it from activating Battle Bond thanks to being able to afford the momentum drain that comes from running Pokémon like Chansey and Alomomola, although it must be said that Ash-Greninja can still find a way to put down Spikes and make progress against those kinds of teams.

 

Due to the overwhelming arguments against it, Ash-Greninja should be banned from PvP. This one is not even a close call. In my opinion, Battle Bond Greninja should be banned until we have almost everything else from Gen 7 OU. I truly believe that the sole addition of Toxapex would not be enough to make it less problematic, as this would result in heavy overcentralization. Being forced to pick one or two Pokémon from a very limited pool of options is unhealthy. We need as much offensive and defensive counterplay to Ash-Greninja as possible.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Jorogumo

[Mcschitter]

Not much more to say, I think you honestly could have gotten an equal point across with 3519 less words and just said ban and it would have the same effect and less of your time wasted on people who are hard stuck on the topic. I think the real topic should be the continuing theme of a lacking PvP council. Very well spoken and as always a pleasure to read for the hope you ever make a single mistake (grats you escaped again bud lol).

[Ghabra]

"bUt iT gEtS rEvEnGe kIlLeD bY cOnKeLldUrRrrrrrr"

Great post from someone who has obviously knows what they are talking about and who has done their research , pro does need something to freshen up the meta , but ash greninja is not it.

Emphasis on the lack of a pvp council just like McSchitter said so that mistakes like landorus incarnate will not happen again.

[Iammeetdp]

-1 

 

I want it to stay. Pokemon like Azumarill, Ferro and chansey are wide spread in PRO meta. They can easily wall Greninjas inferior non Ash-G form. Other than that Ash-G is not a very versatile mon and can be easily predicted. 

 

Good Day ^^

[Giratinassc1]

Bravo!! Really nice topic of you. I can learn something just from reading your post. And also i love the idea of PVP council like McSchitter mention above. People should put effort on research and make a reasonable thread when it come to ban/un-ban specific pokemon and argue with same quality post. I really hate the idea of random guy come to topic just +1, -1 for unreadable reason but the vote still count . 

 

[Plse]

2 hours ago, iammeetdp said:

-1 

 

I want it to stay. Pokemon like Azumarill, Ferro and chansey are wide spread in PRO meta. They can easily wall Greninjas inferior non Ash-G form. Other than that Ash-G is not a very versatile mon and can be easily predicted. 

 

Good Day ^^

Did you even read the thread? Seems like you just came here to point your opinion without even willing to read the information.

[Kboww]

Great post 

[Iammeetdp]

2 hours ago, plse said:

Did you even read the thread? Seems like you just came here to point your opinion without even willing to read the information.

Srsly dude, I cant even put my point now... 

[Exclusivez]

+1 very good post

[Envymeister]

PLUS FKING ONE. 
+1